Risks of EH/booster training at 4.5

[emandbri]

I really think it depends on the situation. If someone has a 4.5 year old, a seat that only goes to 40 lbs with the harness, and already has a booster a booster would be an okay choice. Or if someone wants to keep a child harnessed in the primary vehicle and use a booster in a car that isn't used as much or for grandparents. You have not one but two seats your child can use with the harness so putting him in a booster doesn't seem the most logical choice.

 

[CarseatNerdGirl]

I really think it depends on the situation. If someone has a 4.5 year old, a seat that only goes to 40 lbs with the harness, and already has a booster a booster would be an okay choice. Or if someone wants to keep a child harnessed in the primary vehicle and use a booster in a car that isn't used as much or for grandparents. You have not one but two seats your child can use with the harness so putting him in a booster doesn't seem the most logical choice.

I have 3 seats I could harness him FF in. But I am choosing to keep him primarily RF and booster training him to be ready to booster next spring, around age 5.5.

Nobody has posted anything that shows my choice is unreasonable or less safe.

 

[CarseatNerdGirl]

There's absolutely no proof that or any reasonable evidence suggesting that harnessing an older kid in a correctly sized seat, with the top tether engaged, has any risks at all. (beyond, of course, the inherent risk of traveling in 3000 pounds of metal and plastic at speeds that humans have not evolved to move)

I don't like the word 'proof' very much. I do like the word 'evidence'. The discussions I have had on the matter basically indicated that at a proper age, in a good seat, with a proper fit, the safety was equal, you just go from one set of risks (like increased neckloads with a 5 point) to another (increased risk of submarine with a HBB).

 

[Maedze]

I don't like the word 'proof' very much. I do like the word 'evidence'. The discussions I have had on the matter basically indicated that at a proper age, in a good seat, with a proper fit, the safety was equal, you just go from one set of risks (like increased neckloads with a 5 point) to another (increased risk of submarine with a HBB).

"equal" is the key point there. It's not so much harnessed versus boostering that carries risks. It's driving

Both a good booster and a good top tethered harness will provide substantial protection in a crash. If they are properly used, in a survivable crash, the chance of injury is small.

 

[CarseatNerdGirl]

"equal" is the key point there. It's not so much harnessed versus boostering that carries risks. It's driving

Both a good booster and a good top tethered harness will provide substantial protection in a crash. If they are properly used, in a survivable crash, the chance of injury is small.

Right, so considering all else is equal, why the push? Is it all from KDMF?

 

[monstah]

Nobody has posted anything that shows my choice is unreasonable or less safe.

That's because we have no evidence that it is unreasonable or less safe. And many members support your decision.

You may be reading this with your guard up? You sound defensive and you have no reason to be.

ETA: Gosh, I am slow at typing.

 

[SafeDad]

Based on the stuff I've seen from Sweden, and talking to a lot of my tech friends, I decided to go straight from RF to a HBB.

Sweden is not the USA. They have extremely strict national DUI laws. Like most of nothern Europe, they have a fleet of vehicles that is newer, lighter and safer than our fleet that has around 50% trucks and SUVs, many from the 1980s and 1990s. I gather their population tends to be more educated on child passenger safety issues, too. There are many important factors that contribute heavily to child passenger fatalties beyond when you switch from RF to FF to booster to seatbelt. I have to wonder how the rates would look if you compensated for all those factors and compared Sweden to the USA on a per million vehicle miles travelled basis, rather than the absolute or per capita numbers you usually see presented.

Right now he's using the Nauti as a booster (yes, I know it fits a lot of kids that young funny, but it is fitting him properly) and I was planning on moving him to the Monterey, but some people have suggested the Parkway for the anti-submarine feature. What is your opinion on that?

My 5 year old son has been riding part-time in a booster for about a year. Boosters are quite safe if used correctly and if the child remains seated properly. The same is true for child restraints of every type. Proper use is the key in all of them.

That said, more points of restraint means better coupling to the vehicle. That means less risk of ejection and greater ride down time due to the fact that you decelerate with the crushing vehicle. 5-point harnesses also theoretically provide better side impact protection, even more compared to backless boosters. Whether or not these factors make a difference in real world crashes is impossible to say as there is no compelling data I've seen to compare them.

Like most of these types of issues, I suspect the difference is quite small if the child is otherwise correctly restrained and if the parent is driving unimpaired/undistracted in a relatively safe vehicle. When you child can remain correctly seated in a booster for a whole trip, they should be very safe riding in one. Just make sure to select one that fits them well; not all boosters are created equal.

 

[Maedze]

Right, so considering all else is equal, why the push? Is it all from KDMF?

Depends on the source

KDMF published a well-known tear-jerker of a video that went seriously viral very quickly. I think that's a big source.

As a technician, I urge parents to keep their kids harnessed to booster maturity. Very few parents own seats that will keep their kids rear facing to 4-5 years, so that often means pushing a larger combination seat after their convertible is outgrown at 3 or 4. If you have the harness, why not use it? It's certainly not going to hurt anything. Also, harnesses can be easier for kids to do up themselves than boosters, oddly enough, so there's a convenience factor for the parents.

It's also a case of 'better safe than sorry'. The average parent is just not good at judging if a child is big enough to fit a booster well, or if the child really has the maturity necessary to sit in said booster. If we can encourage them to just harness through that, we avoid the typical pitfalls of early booster transition.

 

[carseatcoach]

There is no proof, or no evidence, that harnessing FFing is risky.

It may not be reasonable to RF to 4 and go straight to booster, as very few 4yos are truly ready for FT booster use.

It is reasonable to RF to 5-6 and go straight to booster. It is reasonable to harness FFing before boostering. It is not reasonable to present one choice as safer than the other (assuming proper fit, proper use including maturity, and all that good stuff) when there is no evidence either way.

The Kyle David Miller video is not evidence.

One advocate from Sweden referencing one non-conclusive study is not evidence either.

 

[CarseatNerdGirl]

That's because we have no evidence that it is unreasonable or less safe. And many members support your decision.

You may be reading this with your guard up? You sound defensive and you have no reason to be.

ETA: Gosh, I am slow at typing.

I'm talking about the thread I referred to earlier (I think in my OP) which is the reason I came here. Sorry, I thought I put up background info, maybe not. I started a couple of posts about it on BBC and one chick stalked me through the thread c/p huge long posts from AAP and NHTSA and KDMF. Another one wrote me about a billion private messages telling me I needed to prove that boostering was NOT less safe, however you do that...it was freaky.

 

[CarseatNerdGirl]

Also, harnesses can be easier for kids to do up themselves than boosters, oddly enough, so there's a convenience factor for the parents.


Not for my kid. He can't/won't do up his harness, but he also can't/won't buckle his seatbelt when he's boostered, either. He does unbuckle it, so that is convenient, when I'm getting my 1 yo out, if C is boostered, he can let himself out of the car.

 

[CarseatNerdGirl]

Sweden is not the USA. They have extremely strict national DUI laws. Like most of nothern Europe, they have a fleet of vehicles that is newer, lighter and safer than our fleet that has around 50% trucks and SUVs, many from the 1980s and 1990s. I gather their population tends to be more educated on child passenger safety issues, too. There are many important factors that contribute heavily to child passenger fatalties beyond when you switch from RF to FF to booster to seatbelt. I have to wonder how the rates would look if you compensated for all those factors and compared Sweden to the USA on a per million vehicle miles travelled basis, rather than the absolute or per capita numbers you usually see presented.



My 5 year old son has been riding part-time in a booster for about a year. Boosters are quite safe if used correctly and if the child remains seated properly. The same is true for child restraints of every type. Proper use is the key in all of them.

That said, more points of restraint means better coupling to the vehicle. That means less risk of ejection and greater ride down time due to the fact that you decelerate with the crushing vehicle. 5-point harnesses also theoretically provide better side impact protection, even more compared to backless boosters. Whether or not these factors make a difference in real world crashes is impossible to say as there is no compelling data I've seen to compare them.

Like most of these types of issues, I suspect the difference is quite small if the child is otherwise correctly restrained and if the parent is driving unimpaired/undistracted in a relatively safe vehicle. When you child can remain correctly seated in a booster for a whole trip, they should be very safe riding in one. Just make sure to select one that fits them well; not all boosters are created equal.

Yet you're making the same choice as me. Your 5 year old has been booster training for about a year. My 4.5 year old has been booster training for about a month. He's RF the majority of the time. Which I get a lot of crap for. @@.

 

[Maedze]

I find the Nauti to be REALLY kid-friendly in harnessed mode.

My son is in the (obnoxiously inaccessible) third row of our vehicle. For the last year he's been able to buckle himself in, and tighten correctly in a matter of seconds. If he were doing the Nauti in booster mode, I generally have to reach back there to double check that the lap belt is lying flat, has been properly cinched down, etc. So it's definitely a convenience factor here.

Another big issue is when two children sit next to each other. Boosters are very difficult to do up with a child restraint right there. It's much easier for either the parent OR child to do the harness. When something is easy to do, it's more likely parents or kids will do it correctly. The KISS theory, if you will

 

[Maedze]

Yet you're making the same choice as me. Your 5 year old has been booster training for about a year. My 4.5 year old has been booster training for about a month. He's RF the majority of the time. Which I get a lot of crap for. @@.

Not from people who know what they're talking about

As we've all said, starting booster training at this age is a good idea for a child who takes direction well and fits well.

 

[StillThankful]

It's measuring the max allowable head excursion from neutral.

What is "neutral?" I noticed that the numbers are different with this measurement and with the "Excursion" column and just trying to figure out why

 

[CarseatNerdGirl]

Not from people who know what they're talking about

As we've all said, starting booster training at this age is a good idea for a child who takes direction well and fits well.

Sorry, just not used to having people agree with me. When I've spent the last year having to defend myself it becomes habit to assume everyone thinks I'm wrong. Kinda hard to get those knots out of my shoulders.

Eventually I'll unwind.


Question based on statement made in this thread - 'you have 2 seats you could use for harnessing, so boostering isn't logical' (gist of the statement, not verbatim). I have 1 seat I could harness him to 65 pounds in and 2 I could harness him in 80 in (assuming he didn't exceed the height requirement) so, just because I can harness him until 80, does that mean I am expected to, logically? Or that I should, logically? I don't get that. My DH and I were both scrawny as kids, and it could be 13-14 before he's over 80 pounds, and I just don't see the point in harnessing that long.

 

[Maedze]

No, what I was trying to say is that, since a parent has gone to the trouble of, saying, purchasing a Graco Nautilus for his three year old, discontinuing use of said harness six months later seems like a bit of a waste. Why not continue to use the harness until it's outgrown, substantially increasing the liklihood that the child is really, truly ready for full time boostering (back to the point that many parents are poor judges of when their child is truly ready.)

You're obviously an educated and well-informed advocate. From what you've written here, I sincerely doubt you'd mistakenly put an immature child in a booster.

As a technician I have to remember that most parents just aren't that aware. Car seats are just something they have to deal with according to the law. They're not THAT interested in doing it the best way possible. So I recommend things that will make it most likely that there won't be any grievous errors.

 

[SafeDad]

Yet you're making the same choice as me. Your 5 year old has been booster training for about a year. My 4.5 year old has been booster training for about a month. He's RF the majority of the time. Which I get a lot of crap for. @@.

Seems like a very reasonable and safe choice to me. I wasn't suggesting otherwise at all, except that there is a possible theoretical advantage to a 5-point harness. I just haven't seen compelling data as to whether the difference is enough to be significant or not.

In my personal situation, I know my kids are correctly restrained and riding in a relatively safe vehicle and I never text or drive under the influence and rarely even talk on a phone. That's why I don't consider a potential theoretical advantage of this type likely to be very significant for my kids. My 5 year old is still squirmy and tends to be out of position in a booster, especially when siblings are in the car. That's the only reason he's still in a harness most of the time.

 

[CarseatNerdGirl]

No, what I was trying to say is that, since a parent has gone to the trouble of, saying, purchasing a Graco Nautilus for his three year old, discontinuing use of said harness six months later seems like a bit of a waste. Why not continue to use the harness until it's outgrown, substantially increasing the liklihood that the child is really, truly ready for full time boostering (back to the point that many parents are poor judges of when their child is truly ready.)

You're obviously an educated and well-informed advocate. From what you've written here, I sincerely doubt you'd mistakenly put an immature child in a booster.

As a technician I have to remember that most parents just aren't that aware. Car seats are just something they have to deal with according to the law. They're not THAT interested in doing it the best way possible. So I recommend things that will make it most likely that there won't be any grievous errors.

Yeah - my dad bought the Nautis for C. He refused to buy Radians or allow C to RF in his car. He said it looked too uncomfortable and dangerous. So he was riding FF harnessed in Peepaws car. I wouldn't have personally bought the seat, just because the use is getting is not worth the money. But I didn't spend the money, so it doesn't bother me as much. And I consider $300 to get my kid RF til 5 or so well worth it, regardless of any use he could get FF out of it. But I'm weird about it. FF before 4 or so makes me extremely uncomfortable. I know a lot of people's children still don't fit in those seats or can't use them for whatever reason, it's just my personal hangup.

 

[CarseatNerdGirl]

Seems like a very reasonable and safe choice to me. I wasn't suggesting otherwise at all, except that there is a possible theoretical advantage to a 5-point harness. I just haven't seen compelling data as to whether the difference is enough to be significant or not.

In my personal situation, I know my kids are correctly restrained and riding in a relatively safe vehicle and I never text or drive under the influence and rarely even talk on a phone. That's why I don't consider a potential theoretical advantage of this type likely to be very significant for my kids. My 5 year old is still squirmy and tends to be out of position in a booster, especially when siblings are in the car. That's the only reason he's still in a harness most of the time.

From talking about this the last few days, my kid is a freak of nature in that he sits really still. Maybe it's me going all Kate Gosselin on him when he even looks like he's about to move.