Risks of EH/booster training at 4.5

[StillThankful]

This is very interesting. DD1 will be 4 this September. What is "booster training?"

 

[Maedze]

This is very interesting. DD1 will be 4 this September. What is "booster training?"

Booster training is for a child who is ideally at least 4 years, 40 pounds, has a good fit in the booster selected, and is responsive to direction and correction and has developed some impulse control

Start with very occasional short trips, laying out the rules clearly (no bending, no turning, no leaning forward, etc.). Trips should be short (15 minutes or less), have no distractions like music or other siblings, and simply for the purpose of getting the child accustomed to the booster.

The idea is that by the time the child has outgrown her harness and must transition to a booster, that she's completely acclimated to it use and can ride safely 100% of the time.

There is no REQUIREMENT to booster train at 4. Not all 4 year olds are ready even for training.

 

[MommyBoha]

Id love to RF to booster age with DD. BUT seeing as her seat only goes to 33lbs and she is pushing 30 at 4.5 years.(she is still RF) I dont think that'll happen. But Im perfectly fine with her FF in her seat. DS is ready for a booster and sits great in one, but he prefers his Regent.(he is 7 and 45lbs) He is allowed to chose what seat he sits in and he always chooses his Regent.
Im thinking of getting DD a Radian to RF her to booster age, but havent made my mind up yet.

 

[Maedze]

Id love to RF to booster age with DD. BUT seeing as her seat only goes to 33lbs and she is pushing 30 at 4.5 years.(she is still RF) I dont think that'll happen. But Im perfectly fine with her FF in her seat. DS is ready for a booster and sits great in one, but he prefers his Regent.(he is 7 and 45lbs) He is allowed to chose what seat he sits in and he always chooses his Regent.
Im thinking of getting DD a Radian to RF her to booster age, but havent made my mind up yet.

For a child who is barely 30 at 4.5, I wouldn't be surprised in the least if she got to 5 1/2 or more at under 33 lbs.

 

[Angela]

I would've also loved to have RF my DS until 5, but he would've only have lasted until about 3 in a RF 40 lb seat. At almost 5, he is booster training in DH car the few times he rides in it. I LOVE the idea of transitioning right into a booster! I wish we could've also! Since he still fits in his XTSL RF I would definitely keep him there and work on the booster training! Good job!

 

[tarabelle]

I read the threads I believe you're talking about. I can understand why you're feeling frazzled at some of the replies you got. I tend not to post on BBC too much, because unlike here, debates include name calling and baiting. I love this place because even the most passionate members can express their opinions without belittling others. Even if you're posting about doing something completely insane (like FF a 2 month old in a HBB or something..) the folks here will respond without insult hurling.

It was too late for me to say anything, but based on my readings here, I'm pretty much on the same boat as you. Frankly, it's hard enough defending our decisions in the "real world" to friends and family that it's great to come here and not be judged for doing what we, as parents, feel is safest.

Ideally, we intend to RF to 4/5 and then go to a HBB. Of course, all of this is theory and based on whether or not DD will even meet the bare minimums for booster training by then. DD1 is tiny on top of it all too, so she may be RF until she's 6 (she is 20lbs clothed at 28 months and only about 31" tall... we're still on the 2nd slots on her MyRide....)

Thankfully, I have another 2+ years to consider my options for DD1, and DD2 isn't due until this October. And really, who knows what will be "best practice" 2-4 years from now?

BTW, what if DD1 is mature enough to booster train but still not heavy enough? Will it depend upon fit?

 

[Madeline410]

What would you (as in everyone lol) do for a 35lb 4.5 year old? At this moment, he is RF in a Complete Air (since my 2.5y/o is RF in my RA50). He normally rides in a Nauti, and prefers FF to RF (this is recent). I haven't even thought about booster training him yet because he's so small... but he thrives on rules. Really. He would sit perfectly still in a booster. Should I keep him RF in the CA? (I'm not loving the RA50 for DD, but it works). Or put him back in the Nauti? Should I ever consider booster training, or hold off until he hits 40lbs?

 

[Maedze]

BTW, what if DD1 is mature enough to booster train but still not heavy enough? Will it depend upon fit?

The child must always meet the bare minimums of assigned by the manufacturer of course.

If a parent intends to start booster training at four, I would prefer to see the child be at least 40 pounds.

If we're talking about a 6 year old, with a more mature, defined skeletal system, I would be comfortable training her in a booster that fits small people well, such as the Vivo or the Turbobooster, if she's at least 30 pounds.

(Of course, this is assuming we are in the US. In Canada, boosters have a 40 lb minimum for any use).

 

[tarabelle]

If we're talking about a 6 year old, with a more mature, defined skeletal system, I would be comfortable training her in a booster that fits small people well, such as the Vivo or the Turbobooster, if she's at least 30 pounds.

This is more the situation I'm referring to. I apologize, I should have been clearer in my post.

Thanks

 

[urchin_grey]

What would you (as in everyone lol) do for a 35lb 4.5 year old? At this moment, he is RF in a Complete Air (since my 2.5y/o is RF in my RA50). He normally rides in a Nauti, and prefers FF to RF (this is recent). I haven't even thought about booster training him yet because he's so small... but he thrives on rules. Really. He would sit perfectly still in a booster. Should I keep him RF in the CA? (I'm not loving the RA50 for DD, but it works). Or put him back in the Nauti? Should I ever consider booster training, or hold off until he hits 40lbs?

Really, its what you're the most comfortable with. If it were my decision, I'd most like keep him RF'ing for a little longer and then start booster training.

Like I said, the only reason I've suggested to my sister that we start booster training her DS when he turns 4 is because it will most likely be safER than his dad strapping him in improperly or possibly moving the seat after my sister installs it and reinstalling it WAY wrong. I've seen the way he straps him in, and I've seen his "installs" and its not even close to correct and wouldn't come close to protecting my nephew in a crash.

BUT, said nephew is 2 years, 10 months right now and 35lbs, 37in. If he continues to follow his normal growth patterns, I'm guessing he'll be at least 40lbs and 40" by his 4th birthday.

This is all hypothetical though, maybe his dad will run away to Mexico or something.

 

[CarseatNerdGirl]

My mom couldn't wait to turn DS FF at 1. However, I informed her otherwise. She tells me that they didn't have seats for infants when I was born and she just laid me on the passenger seat and put her hand on me while she drove! Apparently I had a toddler seat later on though? So that is where she is coming from on car seat safety. She thinks I am a paranoid freak...oh well...my kids are safe!

I purchased 2 Radians and they will RF in her car until at least 4. She rolls her eyes at me when I talk about it but she has agreed to follow my rules (well, at least on car seats).

PS
If your son can sit properly and fits properly in the booster I totally agree that it is safe at his age. I will probably EH till 6 but that is just me. I have super wiggly kiddos though! Would you mind posting a pic of your child in his booster?

I'm confident he's sitting in it properly and the belt is positioned properly

 

[DahliaRW]

I just want to chime in that the nautilus does work as a booster on some smaller kids. It really just depends on build (and maybe torso height). When my ds1 was nearly 4 we used it as a booster for a quick ride to the airport (long story, but basically car with non locking belts and I had to get in first to get in the 3rd row and no one else could use a locking clip and we were short on time). Anyways, it fit him fine, he was around 41" tall and 38ish lbs at the time.

 

[bobandjess99]

I just want to chime in that the nautilus does work as a booster on some smaller kids. It really just depends on build (and maybe torso height). When my ds1 was nearly 4 we used it as a booster for a quick ride to the airport (long story, but basically car with non locking belts and I had to get in first to get in the 3rd row and no one else could use a locking clip and we were short on time). Anyways, it fit him fine, he was around 41" tall and 38ish lbs at the time.

I think it has more to do with belt geometry, honestly. My 5.5 yo is pretty big for her age, and it fits horribly in my car....but acceptably in her dads car.

 

[joolsplus3]

Scroll down to the booster section of this page... http://www.nhtsa.gov/Cars/testing/comply/fmvss213/Jan2010ed.pdf The 3 yo dummies have considerably higher head excursion than the 6 year olds. Could be the larger head, smaller shoulders, much less bone development in the sternum.
Transport Canada asserts that harnesses are safer for young children... http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/roadsafety/safedrivers-childsafety-programs-testing-harness-report-923.htm

The Swedes seem to be the only people who contend that harnessing FF kids is a bad idea, yet none of their studies are translated into English nor available freely online to see. There's also not really any evidence that harnessing to higher weights and ages is dangerous or causes neck injury. Seats are better designed now to manage the forces, such as the Radian with the Safestop Device, the Britaxes with the Rip Stitch tether, the RideSafer Travel Vest with the deforming tether rings...this keeps the forces on the neck and chest even lower. But even other harnessed seats will have lots of stretch and movement in the harness and tether to allow good 'ride down' time and prevent the risk of injury.

It's hard to know which is safest, because when data are collected from real life crashes, it's just 'assumed' that any kid under 4 is harnessed, and any kid over 4 is boostered, unless the first responders note otherwise. And given that most seats are improperly used and installed, odds are good that the kid in the very misused harnessed seat may have been worse off than in a booster (over 2/3'rds of which are also misused), we have now way of knowing for sure how a kid would be safer.

I will take the bet that a kid in a properly installed harnessed seat is going to be better protected in more types of crashes than they would be in a booster until they are about age 6 or so and their shoulders and chest and pelvis are better formed, their head proportionately smaller, and they have more maturity to sit properly for all of every trip. If they could RF to that age, more the better, but currently a FF harnessed is an extremely safe option.

 

[carseatcoach]

I agree; I don't think that FFing harnessed is unsafe at all.

My main beef is with the argument that kids should be harnessed "as long as possible" (which, with the Frontier85, could be into middle school for some kids!) or that a properly fitted and used booster for a 50# 6yo is some terrible scary thing.

 

[Maedze]

The 'as long as possible' message came when seats maxed out at 40 pounds, but parents were switching their combinations to booster mode as soon as the child reached 30 pounds...even if the child was only 2 or 3 years old and still fit the harness.

"As long as possible" at the time didn't realistically mean beyond 3-4 years, 5 for very petite kids.

KDMF took the message and ran with it, in a somewhat misguided, if very well-intentioned, way, only applying it to seats like the Regent rather than the Evenflo Chase. Don't get me wrong, I fully support their efforts, but they did contribute to the incorrect assumption that a mature child of size is unsafe in a good booster.

 

[CarseatNerdGirl]

I'm not sure where people get that I think EH is 'dangerous'. I used the word 'risks'. Is anyone trying to say there's no risks to EH? There's risks to everything, so I don't buy that.

Pushing for EH 'as long as possible' and basically trying to make other people feel like they made the irresponsible choice for not deciding to do that is just silly.

 

[Maedze]

There's absolutely no proof that or any reasonable evidence suggesting that harnessing an older kid in a correctly sized seat, with the top tether engaged, has any risks at all. (beyond, of course, the inherent risk of traveling in 3000 pounds of metal and plastic at speeds that humans have not evolved to move)

 

[StillThankful]

Scroll down to the booster section of this page... http://www.nhtsa.gov/Cars/testing/comply/fmvss213/Jan2010ed.pdf The 3 yo dummies have considerably higher head excursion than the 6 year olds. Could be the larger head, smaller shoulders, much less bone development in the sternum.
.

Thanks for the info but what is this column measuring?

• (720 mm max, 813 mm max w/o tether)???

 

[Maedze]

It's measuring the max allowable head excursion from neutral.