MT foot prop too short?

I was checking out the Multitech at a store in the UK last week and discussing installing it in different cars and the (very knowledgeable) guy there told me that since they've been stocking it (very new!) his fitting guy has been having trouble fitting it in some cars because the foot prop is too short to reach the floor.

I had never heard of this problem before. He said it was really irritating because it seemed to him like it would have been easy for Britax to make it a bit longer. Has anybody else ever heard of this problem? Do you think maybe they are doing something wrong during their install or can you imagine that it really would be too short to reach the floor in some cars?

I'm certain from the pictures I've seen that the height of it is adjustable. Perhaps they're not adjusting the height of it? I'll let Adventure Dad weigh in with a definite answer since he's played with the seat and I haven't, but I'd guess that's what the problem is... we don't have a ton of international traffic here, but it's not a complaint I've heard before. :thumbsup:

Height, or maybe angle. In the back of the manual, there is a guide, for the angle. I can totally see people thinking the prop MAY be too short, but really isn't. Here is a pic of it in a Honda Odyssey.



In this pic, the angle is not enough, and the prop is not firm on the floor. As soon as we changed the angle, all was well.

Both height and angle is adjustable. The support leg is simple and straight forward, it would be tough to miss that it's extendable

It does happen that support leg is slightly too short in some cars but it can usually be resolved. This also happens with Britax Hi-Way. Easiest way is to pull down more on the tether straps. They can't be tightened too hard so pull haaaard if leg isn't reaching floor. It just gives a tighter installation.:thumbsup:

The manual says the same about Hi-Way and Multi Tech, don't lean car seat against seat in front. The support leg gives added stability so the manual wants to "force" parents to use the support leg. Good idea. "Professionals" who install these seats use the support leg AND lean against seat in front. This gives even more stability. It's not really needed since Multi Tech installation is rock solid but it's slightly better.

If support leg can't reach floor no matter what then car seat is leaned against front seat and support leg is placed in a different angle where it does reach the floor. One can also adjust the angle even further but putting a folded towel etc. under bottom front of car seat.

Overall I would say it's very rare that a solution can be found so that support leg reaches floor.

Thanks for the comments and ideas. I may contact them with your suggestions because I'd hate to see them telling people this seat won't fit their car when it will.

They certainly knew the foot prop is adjustable. They just felt it needed to be longer. It makes sense that it's all about the install angle.

AD, I was a bit confused by one part of your post. So the MT manual says that the MT can't be leaned against the seat in front of it? Wouldn't that make it hard to fit it in small cars?

AD, I was a bit confused by one part of your post. So the MT manual says that the MT can't be leaned against the seat in front of it? Wouldn't that make it hard to fit it in small cars?

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Multi Tech is not really made for small cars but amazingly enough it fits really well in most cars despite being a large seat. Britax wants people to use the foot prop for added stability and not relay purely on leaning on seat in front.

I think this is a good idea and the foot prop works really well. There are few customers having problems that can't easily be adjusted somehow.

Both height and angle is adjustable. The support leg is simple and straight forward, it would be tough to miss that it's extendable

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:ROTFLMAO::crying: It is both funny and tragic at the same time, since this guy is a professional car seat fitter and really should know.

What store was that, and do they have an email that I can write to with photos?

That leg is very simple to install and get it right even.

I have heard of only one case, where the parents had to throw the towel in the ring. There was a storage compartment in the floor between the back seats and the front seats. They just couldn´t make the leg reach the bottom of that.

Lena

AD, are you aware that in some American cars, no seats are allowed to touch the front seat at all? (They can touch the removable headrest, but nothing is supposed to touch/lean against the actual seat of the car.) You might want to look into and mention that possible compatibility issue on your site, since I know you sell to America sometimes.

I'm aware of that, thanks for pointing it out. There is no downside of leaning a Swedish seat against seat in front regardless if it's a Swedish, US, Canadian, German, Chinese, etc car. The additional force on the seat in front is no problem regardless if the car has the new active airbags.

Actually, it can reduce WHIPS protection, I believe..? Not just interfere with the sensors for the newer side impact airbags..

IMO--it's not a difficult trade-off if it's just a matter of interfering with WHIPS.

Edited to add: Obviously Volvo AGREES that it's a reasonable trade-off...they've had WHIPS standard for 15 years, and recommend and even market Britax ERF products that brace against their headrests...

-N.

Adventuredad said:

I'm aware of that, thanks for pointing it out. There is no downside of leaning a Swedish seat against seat in front regardless if it's a Swedish, US, Canadian, German, Chinese, etc car. The additional force on the seat in front is no problem regardless if the car has the new active airbags.

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See, I think that you should probably explain your reasoning to that, and let the parents make the decision once they have all the facts.

I have had to have parents adjust their seats so their carseat was not touching the seat in front, which sometimes resulted in an unusable (or nearly) front seat. I think they should be informed of the potential decision they might have to make to go against the instructions of the vehicle manufacturer or move their seat far forward, KWIM?

I'd also like to hear what Toyota (who have several models on the market that forbid any kind of touching, even kids putting feet on the back of the seat!) has to say about it.

Adventuredad said:

I'm aware of that, thanks for pointing it out. There is no downside of leaning a Swedish seat against seat in front regardless if it's a Swedish, US, Canadian, German, Chinese, etc car. The additional force on the seat in front is no problem regardless if the car has the new active airbags.

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I'd love to hear your logic or proof behind this statement too. Thanks.

hipmaman said:

I'd love to hear your logic or proof behind this statement too. Thanks.

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Indeed. Please don't take anyone's word that this is OK. Consult the owner's manuals for your child restraint and vehicle as the final authority.

Adventuredad said:

I'm aware of that, thanks for pointing it out. There is no downside of leaning a Swedish seat against seat in front regardless if it's a Swedish, US, Canadian, German, Chinese, etc car. The additional force on the seat in front is no problem regardless if the car has the new active airbags.

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Aside from potentially preventing the front passenger airbags from deploying, or causing them to deploy when they shouldn't? That doesn't seem like "no problem regardless" to me. :twocents:

In Sweden most vehicles with airbags have on/off switches for the front passenger seat - no? That's always been the feeling I've gotten from you given how common it is in Sweden to put rf'ing kids in front..

So how can you make a blanket statement about North American vehicles when our airbag sensors are clearly much different than the ones used in Sweden?

Vehicle manufacturers clearly feel it's a big enough issue to prohibit touching in their manuals. Do you have data indicating otherwise? Something that proves it is safe to have a carseat touching a front seat when the vehicle manual forbids it?

See, I think that you should probably explain your reasoning to that, and let the parents make the decision once they have all the facts.

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Good point. The current recommendation of installing a Multi Tech without touching the seat in front/dashboard works great so I see no reason to change it. The foot prop should always be used. I was pointing out the people who know a bit more install the seat with foot prop and also lean the car seat on seat in front.

There has been previous questions, more general and not about Multi Tech, regarding leaning car seat against seat in front. There were questions about the newer smarter airbags etc. I discussed this with people who work closely with car seats/vehicles and know far more about this particular situation. There would be no interfere with the airbags by leaning car seat on seat in front due to mechanics in a crash.

The leg space does decrease by half an inch or so by installing seat without touching seat in front but this is usually no problem. Most parents install the seats this way and everything works great. "Pros" who install the seat use the foot prop and lean slightly on seat in front which gives even better support. A parent can install the set either way, both methods are extremely safe.

Many airbags can be deactivated in Europe by key/switch which is not really relevant in this case. That's relevant if car seat is installed in the front, not rear seat.

So how can you make a blanket statement about North American vehicles when our airbag sensors are clearly much different than the ones used in Sweden?

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Adding a switch to an airbag doesn't change how it works. Most vehicles driven in Europe are very similar or virtually identical to US vehicles.

I usually make no comment to parents about leaning on seat in front since the method from the manual works very well. Since the UK store seemed to be having issues with installation I pointed out what people do who have installed many thousands of these seats. If someone doesn't feel comfortable with this it's fine.

Manufacturers etc often make advice might seem strange or incorrect. The warning about using the front seat for rear facing seats (airbag deactivated), proven to be as safe or safer than the rear, is another example. Many say it's "dangerous" with a rear facing car seat which is incorrect. It's always a good idea to follow the manual which is why I don't make any mention of leaning on seats in front unless it comes up through specific questions.

As always it's important that parents feel at ease with their safety decisions in the car. Installing with a foot prop without leaning is great, leaning against the front seat is also fine and gives even more stability.

Aside from potentially preventing the front passenger airbags from deploying, or causing them to deploy when they shouldn't? That doesn't seem like "no problem regardless" to me.

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An airbag won't deploy if something is leaning on the front seat. The practical implications of that would be a disaster.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adventuredad
I'm aware of that, thanks for pointing it out. There is no downside of leaning a Swedish seat against seat in front regardless if it's a Swedish, US, Canadian, German, Chinese, etc car. The additional force on the seat in front is no problem regardless if the car has the new active airbags.

I'd love to hear your logic or proof behind this statement too. Thanks.

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It was debated earlier at some point what would happen in a collision with the newer and smarter airbag if a car seat was leaning on seat in front. Some airbags sense the weight of the driver etc. The additional force caused by a rear facing car seat leaning on seat in front would be small and not relevant to the function of the airbag. In a collision, body of driver/passenger would be moving forward and the leaning car seat would have no effect in function.

Adventuredad said:

Good point. The current recommendation of installing a Multi Tech without touching the seat in front/dashboard works great so I see no reason to change it. The foot prop should always be used. I was pointing out the people who know a bit more install the seat with foot prop and also lean the car seat on seat in front.

There has been previous questions, more general and not about Multi Tech, regarding leaning car seat against seat in front. There were questions about the newer smarter airbags etc. I discussed this with people who work closely with car seats/vehicles and know far more about this particular situation. There would be no interfere with the airbags by leaning car seat on seat in front due to mechanics in a crash.

The leg space does decrease by half an inch or so by installing seat without touching seat in front but this is usually no problem. Most parents install the seats this way and everything works great. "Pros" who install the seat use the foot prop and lean slightly on seat in front which gives even better support. A parent can install the set either way, both methods are extremely safe.

Many airbags can be deactivated in Europe by key/switch which is not really relevant in this case. That's relevant if car seat is installed in the front, not rear seat.



Adding a switch to an airbag doesn't change how it works. Most vehicles driven in Europe are very similar or virtually identical to US vehicles.

I usually make no comment to parents about leaning on seat in front since the method from the manual works very well. Since the UK store seemed to be having issues with installation I pointed out what people do who have installed many thousands of these seats. If someone doesn't feel comfortable with this it's fine.

Manufacturers etc often make advice might seem strange or incorrect. The warning about using the front seat for rear facing seats (airbag deactivated), proven to be as safe or safer than the rear, is another example. Many say it's "dangerous" with a rear facing car seat which is incorrect. It's always a good idea to follow the manual which is why I don't make any mention of leaning on seats in front unless it comes up through specific questions.

As always it's important that parents feel at ease with their safety decisions in the car. Installing with a foot prop without leaning is great, leaning against the front seat is also fine and gives even more stability.



An airbag won't deploy if something is leaning on the front seat. The practical implications of that would be a disaster.



It was debated earlier at some point what would happen in a collision with the newer and smarter airbag if a car seat was leaning on seat in front. Some airbags sense the weight of the driver etc. The additional force caused by a rear facing car seat leaning on seat in front would be small and not relevant to the function of the airbag. In a collision, body of driver/passenger would be moving forward and the leaning car seat would have no effect in function.

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I will have to read more carefully later tonight but it seems that we might not be talking about the same (set) of airbags here.

I thought we were referring to the airbags that deployable by certain threshold of force if exerted on the back or the side of a front seat. You know, deployable by anything like a child kicking the back, rf carseat 'swinging' into the back on its rotational axis in a collision or even just short-stop, an unsecure object like a heavy bag, a stroller, or whatever projectile objects people usually have in the back seat of a car, etc. that slammed into the back of the front seat when the car decelerate quickly, etc.

I'm so confused about the response, but I gotta read more carefully later

Adventuredad - without quoting your entire post, I think that you missed the point about airbag switches vs. airbag sensors. An airbag switch is a manual control, therefore it is not the same as a sensor which relies on external input to trigger it to tell the computer whether the airbag should be on or off. If the external input is inaccurate due to a carseat leaning against the back of the seat, then this is indeed an issue in North American vehicles.

Driver airbags are not controlled by sensors quite the same way as a passenger side airbag in North American vehicles - though in some vehicles with more advanced safety systems I believe that there are sensors which determine how close to the steering wheel the driver is and controls the airbag deployment stages - so interfering with those sensors would also not be a good thing... but in my prior post I was talking specifically about passenger side airbags since they are the ones with the most sensors involved. And the sensors involved, control whether or not the airbag is active. So interfering with those sensors could indeed prevent the airbag from deploying - or make it deploy when it shouldn't deploy - such as if a ff'ing child was in the front seat.

It's the reason why in North American vehicles we say to never put a rf'ing seat in the front unless there is a manual on/off airbag switch. Because sensors can be interfered with and there's always a chance the airbag could become active. Which is just not a risk to ever take with a rf'ing child.

You know, I asked around at Lifesavers about airbag sensors and rfing seats touching and got zero information to back up the concern. I even chased Stephanie Trombello around for 45 mins to ask her (since she is the LATCH manual expert it made sense that she would have the most contact with auto manufacturers). She wasn't aware of there being a potential problem.

Volvo does not have an issue with their WHIPS system interfering with Swedish rfing tethered seats. The position of the tethers are lower on the seat than American seats and allow the top of the CR to be pushed out of the way.

Could someone explain what WHIPS is, and how a RFing carseat might interfere with it? I'm lost, and I'm sure some others reading will be too. Thanks.


AD, the concern with bracing a car seat on a North American vehicle that disallows it is that it interferes with the weight sensor for that front seat. The computer doesn't decide what the occupant's weight is during the crash, when everything is moving forward, it has already decided that in the seconds before the crash. From some non-scientific experiments I've done, it can take upwards of 30 seconds for the computer to re-weigh the occupant and change the status of the airbag from active to not.

The computer in the car takes information from the sensors in the front passenger seat, and combines that with sensors in various locations in the vehicle that give it info about the force of the crash. Then the computer makes one of three decisions: don't deploy the airbag, deploy it full-force, or deploy with a lower force. The full-force deployment would be used with a heavier occupant and a higher force crash. The lower-force deployment might be used with a lighter occupant and medium force crash, or a medium weight occupant and lower force crash. Both crash force and the weight of the occupant as perceived by the computer in the seconds leading up to the crash are factors in the computer's decision. I can't come up with a scenario where the airbag would not deploy when it should have, but it may deploy with more force than is appropriate for the actual weight of the occupant.

I, myself, have made the decision to ride in the front passenger's seat in a vehicle that doesn't allow any touching, with DD's carseat touching. I'm heavy enough that I believe that the additional "weight" from the carseat would not significantly alter the airbags function. Also, even if it did, I'm not too worried about an airbag deploying in front of me. If it was my child in that front seat, I would follow the vehicle's instructions precisely and not allow touching.

hipmaman said:

I thought we were referring to the airbags that deployable by certain threshold of force if exerted on the back or the side of a front seat. You know, deployable by anything like a child kicking the back, rf carseat 'swinging' into the back on its rotational axis in a collision or even just short-stop, an unsecure object like a heavy bag, a stroller, or whatever projectile objects people usually have in the back seat of a car, etc. that slammed into the back of the front seat when the car decelerate quickly, etc.

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I've never heard of any such airbag.

I'd like to hear more about these sorts of airbags too.