"To the limit"

I know here people push to RF until the last possible moment, to the limits of the seat. And I know that many members on here are extremely judgmental about people turning their kids one second too soon.

But why does no one ever care about anything but the weight limit on the seat? Why does no one ever care about the entire situation?

I saw a few weeks ago a very well liked poster say that a 28 pound three year old had no business forward facing, and that that was a bad choice on the part of the parents. I was floored. 3 years old? Give me a break. I've seen people call other posters liars when they claim their kid has outgrown a seat, and accuse them of just being anxious to forward face and looking for an excuse. I've seen people be berated and told to buy a bigger seat, even if they don't have the money. I've seen people with severely car sick kids, whose motion sickness and constant vomiting has disappeared when FF, be told that, "I'd rather deal with a puking kid than a dead kid."

What I don't understand is why no one cares about anything other than the weight limit? It's not only detrimental to the message that we're trying to convey (and if I was told that I should just let my kid puke and be miserable instead of doing something to correct it, I'd just leave and write you off as a bunch of lunatics who don't care about kids at all), it's incorrect and unfair.

I know that I got a lot of flak from people here when I turned Charlie around. He was well under the rear facing limits (30-31 pounds at the time), and 23 months old. But there was no safe option for him remaining rear facing. The situation surrounding it was more important than his weight. Rear facing was dangerous for my kid. And I faced a lot of judgment and ridicule when I talked about it, including people accusing me of just wanting to turn him around and looking for any reason to justify it. But I knew that rear facing was harming my kid, period. Forward facing was much better for him. And you know what? He's still under the RF weight limit (by a hair), and I have no intention of turning him around again. Even though the danger that made me turn him in the first place has passed, I don't think it's fair to my kid to turn him around again. And I know that makes me a horrible parent who doesn't care about car safety. Eh, whatever.

But I think people really need to get their heads out of their "33 pounds or death" mode and consider the entire situation. Rear facing to the limits of the child and the situation is more important, and realistic, than rear facing to the limits of the seat. For some kids, that limit is only 14 or 18 months old, for some people it's 4 years. But there are numerous very valid reasons why someone would turn a child before the bottom line stated they absolutely have to. And this board has become more and more hostile to those people, without even caring what kind of message that sends. Because people judging someone for not buying a Radian to get another two inches of RF time because they can't afford it are just as guilty as those turning their kids at 33 pounds. You could buy a foreign seat... and if "that" person's inability to afford it was just an excuse, then so must be yours.

:yeahthat:

I turned my son FF right around his 2nd birthday because I was going through chemo and radiation for cervical cancer, and I was just too weak and exhausted to get him in his MA. My son just wasn't quite able to climb into the MA by himself when it was RF. I even tried installing the Radian RF in my Pilot, and while he was able to climb into the Radian by himself, it was a real struggle for me to adjust the harness straps; I just didn't have the strength to tug/release the harness on the Radian.

Even though he was around 25-26lbs at the time, but I was pretty proud of myself for keeping him RF until he was 2yo. I'm done my treatments and have my strength back, but my son almost 30lbs now and I feel comfortable leaving him FF in his Radian at this point.

I have to say that I'm very put off by people who say that they buy a scenera just to have 2 extra pounds of rfing time. The majority of these people go from very nice seats with eps foam and padded seat covers and all sorts of extras to the cheapest seat on the market. Not that there's anything wrong with the scenera, I just don't believe that rfing in a completely unpadded and very lightweight seat is any safer then a big, sturdy seat with eps foam ffing.

I am a very firm believer in rfing, but when I see people with a 30lb 3 year old post for the first time about what seat they should get and everyone tells them that they should still be rfing I think its very off putting for the poster.

Peyton is about to outgrow his seats rfing by height and I have absolutely no intention of buying a radian or any other seat. He's still not anywhere close to the rfing limit but I personally feel that the radian's not worth wasting my money on because I think its a poorly made seat and that would be my only option.

:yeahthat: I will NOT cry when I have to turn my son. When he's big enough he's safe enough. If people have already turned their children (even REALLY early) I give them the information on why they should rear face but I give them options that they are likely to USE as well.

I'm a 2 years person, after the 2 year mark the benefits are still there but they start to lessen so if you made it to 30lbs and 2 years I'm doing the happy dance (is there a smilie for that?)

I don't want people to EVER think I'm judgemental for their decisions one way or another, and I know not everyone is going to ERF to the limits so I want them to feel comfortable coming to me for information onn whatever their situation is.

It's no secret I belong to another message board, where all of our babies JUST turned one year in December. I'm PROUD of the fact that 70% of them are still rear facing (based on the current poll numbers). I don't want the other 30% that followed the law to be put off by me and STOP asking me questions to keep their kids safe too.

I learned my lesson this weekend. I had always been one of those "RF to the limits" people. I was usually flexible about OLDER children, but was pretty inflexible about younger kids being FF "too early."

This weekend, however, I learned my lesson and learned to keep my mouth shut. I was dealing with a family with a 23-month-old who weighs around 26-27 pounds. She must be turned FF (long story that I don't want to get into because it is their business), like Charlie was at this age, Estelle. I learned to keep my mouth shut. Those parents have given their daughter an additional ELEVEN MONTHS of added safety, which should be commended.

I do believe in the "A 28-pound three-year-old has no business" being in a BOOSTER (unless it is the ONLY choice for some reason).

I do believe that a child under 25 pounds, regardless of age, should be left RF, if possible.

I am learning to "see the other side" and not be so judgmental.

Melizerd said:

I'm a 2 years person, after the 2 year mark the benefits are still there but they start to lessen so if you made it to 30lbs and 2 years I'm doing the happy dance (is there a smilie for that?)

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Wellll...no. The benefits do not really start to lessen, they just have not been proven yet

I learned about ERF by example. When I was shopping for a new seat for my 2 yo 23 pound kid back in 2001, no one even hinted that the Evenflo Apollo (FF Combo seat) I wanted would be a poor choice (it was a GREAT choice! It had EPS foam, tall top slots, and a front adjuster!)... after some time seeing people I admired keeping their kids RF longer, I found the money to buy a Marathon to put dd1 back RF at age 3 and 29 pounds. No one ever got told FF was unacceptable for a kid under the limits back then, and most of us got the message it was good and desirable to RF as long as possible. :thumbsup:

That said, I think it's always acceptable to gently mention that RF is an option, when it is for the kid in question. Maybe they'll ignore you, maybe they'll do it, but if they think it's their choice to do it without pressure, then they will spread the word more loudly, IME.

I agree with you. I turned my youngest, for the most part, shortly after she turned 3. She was well under the weight limit, and she actually liked to rf but I turned her for my own benefit. There I said it! It was winter and dealing with her muddy, wet boots was a pain. The final straw was when our van's automatic door broke and I was driving carpool with 4 kids to drop off. The door, passenger side, is very hard to open and close now. I wanted dd on the drivers side for quicker in and out and so I didn't have to fight the broken door every time. But, she had to be ff so I could let the carpool kids out. The kids couldn't work the broken door and I held up the line too much if I got out and walked around to fight it myself. It would take up to 10 slams to get it shut so that the buzzer inside would turn off. The buzzer finally shorted out and now I drive around with the door not shut tight. Have I mentioned I hate my van?

Anyway, after age 3 I don't have a problem with most kids ff. With younger kids, ff for a good reason such as vomiting, screaming, kid too hot, whatever, is fine as long as other methods have been tried to remedy the situation first. If nothing else works, then ff and forget about it.

I took my middle dd out of a harness younger, and smaller, than I wanted to because she would scream, and scream, and scream. The 5pt just was too irritating with her sensory issues. She was nearly 6 and about 45#, iirc, and I tried a lot of things first but nothing worked. I put her in a booster and didn't beat myself up about it. Besides, it gave me a taller seat to rf my peanut in a bit longer.

Splash said:

I saw a few weeks ago a very well liked poster say that a 28 pound three year old had no business forward facing, and that that was a bad choice on the part of the parents. I was floored. 3 years old? Give me a break.

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That was me.

Well, um, the 'very well liked' bit rather puzzled me...

I believe I made a decent job of clarifying my point further on in the post.

If you've been steamed about this for weeks, you probably should have PMed me

And to clarify, although I am extremely pro-ERF, I am not frightened of turning my children forward facing. I turned my son when he was roughly 32 pounds, around 2 years 5 months, and it didn't bother me at all.

i agree with splash. i think situations have to be evaluated individually. ERFing "to the limits" is not always a viable option. we just got back at 10:00 last night from an 8 hour road trip, and i can tell you that as a driver, i would have been able to drive more safely and calmly if my ERFing DD2 (26 lbs and 18 months) had been FFing. to me, that was not an option given her age and weight, but i will definitely be turning her "before the limits", most likely around 2 yrs and 30 lbs.

but i can also understand why ERF is pushed so hard here. for most seats out there, there is the option of keeping kids ERFing longer than is routinely practiced. if everyone at least ERF'd to the limits of their existing seat (without even buying a new seat), they'd be increasing their child's overall safety without any additional cost, even if it only gets them an additional few pounds or months than the bare minimums... that's at least helping somewhat without much sacrifice. that's the message i hear here, but i do also hear the judgmental comments about when someone doesn't go out and pay money to keep their kids ERFing to the longest possible limits... down to the last ounce... and that they're "bad" parents if they don't. that's just annoying.

EDIT: technically, my DD1, who hasn't ERF'd since 2yr/30lb, is still technically "eligible" to ERF in her como, but it ain't gonna happen. and not only will i NOT cry when i have to turn DD2, i will REJOICE (for my own sanity)! :evil grin: :duck:

ThreeBeans said:

ell, um, the 'very well liked' bit rather puzzled me...

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yeah, that threw me off too.

southpawboston said:

yeah, that threw me off too.

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:evil grin:


I'm feeling a little defensive, now.

Maybe you remember, Splash, a few months ago I posted in Community Member Chat about my car accident and how I rear ended someone because I was driving distracted due to the two older beans being next to each other?

Fortunately I found another way to arrange it so Bean the Second could stay rearfacing, but until I managed it, I was seriously considering turning her forward facing (at 20 months and 25 pounds no less!!!!!!!!!), so that I could separate them.

Because while ERF is ideal, not getting into an accident at all is, um, safer. LOL.

I'm not picking on you, Beanstalk. And you are well liked, at least by me. It just absolutely shocked me that someone, even you, would say something so black and white about a child that old. And that thread eventually got locked because of the ERF thing. I haven't been steaming for weeks, just thinking. I have been for 6 months, actually, since the first insult I received for turning my son around. It doesn't bother me in the least, but some people it would bother a lot. And I hate for someone to not hear anything because the first thing was so ludicrous. If I came hear asking what seat I should buy for my 29 pound 3.5 year old, and the first nine posts say nothing but, "She should really be rear facing, it's so much safer" and nothing addresses an actual car seat, that would just make me roll my eyes and listen to the BRU sales guy who tells me that the TB is the greatest seat on the market. I agree that rear facing can always be presented as an option, and should be, but it's not the holy grail. It's especially disheartening to hear the "better a screaming/puking/miserable kid than a dead kid" remark which is pretty common around these parts, and not really based in fact. Personally, I'd rather protect my kid from the REAL situation of puking all over everything on every ride, than the very unlikely potential situation of being in an accident where RF would have provided a crucial safety advantage.

joolsplus3 said:

That said, I think it's always acceptable to gently mention that RF is an option, when it is for the kid in question. Maybe they'll ignore you, maybe they'll do it, but if they think it's their choice to do it without pressure, then they will spread the word more loudly, IME.

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:yeahthat:

ITA. It's great to get the word about ERF out there tactfully, in a conscious effort to avoid putting a parent or caregiver on the defensive to the point that they opt to disregard any and all advice about their specific scenario. Every poster here has the potential to help spread the word about ERFing. One person can have a tremendous impact, as Mel has mentioned, in their own particular sphere of influence online and IRL. We don't want to completely chase away newbies who came here to get their specific seat installation or usage questions answered because they're being "shouted down" by a stridently attacking chorus of ERFing. Present the info. gently and tactfully, using the "more flies with honey than vinegar" approach. Then the parent/caregiver can evaluate whether ERFing is workable for their specific circumstances, and hopefully continue to spread the word to their family/circle of acquaintances. Nothing like a convert.

Did you read the rest of the thread after that, Splash? I further clarified, that turning for no darned reason other than that 'someone felt like it' was what I objected to. Not when there were legitimate external situations to deal with, specifically like poor Charlie's medical issues. And I apologized because I felt bad

joolsplus3 said:

That said, I think it's always acceptable to gently mention that RF is an option, when it is for the kid in question. Maybe they'll ignore you, maybe they'll do it, but if they think it's their choice to do it without pressure, then they will spread the word more loudly, IME.

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I agree. I'll push harder for a kid under two, but above that I'll give a gentle shove in the ERF direction and see what happens. If receptive then I continue, if not I drop it.

A lady on one of my boards has a 18 month old son who is 24 pounds. She asked about turning him forward and wanted to know about slot height. He's in a crappysport. I linked her the study that said until two the benefit is extreme and said that he's got time and asked that she do six more months. She said no, she's turning him, he's frustrated because he wants to be FFing like his older sister, and she did six months longer than most so she was a good parent. Sigh. There's nothing you can say to that. I shoved, hit the wall, and so I stopped. No sense beating my head against it.

Now if her son had been three and 24 pounds, and obviously in a different seat, I would have mentioned it more in passing, but otherwise given her FFing info as well.

I turned Piper at 2.5 years and 23 pounds. Then turned her back in my car just before 4 and at 28 pounds. But she could, and it was my choice. I mentioned it to people to raise awareness of it, not encourage them to turn their petite four year olds back, unless they wanted to.

Wendy

Ironically, I've gotten a lot less gung-ho on ERF and EH since becoming a tech.

Don't get me wrong--I'm still all for it and will encourage it. But now my attitude is more, "Deal with what you've got" than "I'm going to change the world!"

My eye-opening experience was at the seat check on the last day of my class. By the end of that day, I was just glad that the kids were in SOMETHING (that fit right), and I learned that you really need to pick your battles, or you'll get frustrated really quickly.

I also like the idea of mentioning another possibility, and then giving people an answer to the question they're asking (unless something is dramatically unsafe). I don't want to scare people away by coming off as too heavy-handed or fanatical.

Thank you for posting this Splash. I have been feeling the same way since I posted a few days ago that my 18 mo with a 14.5" torso had outgrown his FPSVD RF. After I posted pictures, I was told that the seat didn't look outgrown even though I said the pictures were deceiving and he does not have more than 1" of shell above his head. I was told my only options were to install the seat at a 30 degree angle (which is uncomfortable for my son who still sleeps frequently in the car) or to buy a Radian which I don't want to do for many reasons including incompatability with our cars, financial reasons and just in general not a big fan of the seat. I knew from the beginning that I would have a very tall child (DH is 6' 8") so after reading this board I bought what I thought was one of the tallest seats on the market that would allow for the most RF time. My son has RF to the limits of his seat just like the AAP recommends so I felt okay with my decision to turn him FF. I just felt put off when I was told my only options were to make my son uncomfortable or spend a large amount of money when in reality I had kept my son RF to the limits of his seat and did the very best I could with my situation.

As far as where I stand (and I'm not a tech),

I would advise that a parent RF their child to the limits of *their* convertible or until they reach 2 years old. After two years, I may tell a parent "your child could still be RF", but I wouldn't push the issue. Also, if there are other issued involved (such as yours) you have to look at it on a case by case basis. I think you did great keeping him RF to 23 months old.

Now, if it were ME and my child was 18 months and outgrew the seat RF, and another seat was available on the market, I would buy it, however, I would not tell a parent that they *should* buy it, but I would tell them that they *could* buy it.

I also hate the thought of using any seat without EPS foam. I would FF my child before buying a Scenera, but that is just me.

Now, my son is 3 years and almost 5 months old. He is only 27 pounds with a full stomach. When he turned 3, I made the decision to continue to RF until he was 4 (August 08) (unless he had a huge growth spurt), and then we would revisit the issue. We are using only 1 carseat now because our BLVD was in a fender bender. I have a check from the insurance for the replacement value, and I intend to buy a SafeGuard child seat. Not because I NEED it, but because I WANT it, and having a check for $329 in my pocket, knowing I can get a safeguard for 399 with no tax and free shipping is just tooo tempting. But, I'm afraid to buy the seat now, because I know I will want to use it. Not because I want to FF, but because I think the SafeGuard is cool. Regardless of when I buy it though, the Safeguard is going in our weekend car and Jordan will continue to RF during our long commute. If we take the pathfinder for any real distance, I would put his marathon in that car.

So, while I am a proponent of ERF, I will likely be guilty of letting my 28 pound child FF on trips to the grocery store etc.