Email from RECARO head rest support needed!!

[creideamh]

Agreed. I'm pretty much the only tech I know around here who actually cares to research seats beyond looking at the stickers on the seats brought to us to checks (and the only one who can glance at a seat and tell what it is.) If the manufacturer wants head support, it should say so... or at the very least not say something completely opposite in the manual. So many of our local techs are worried about liability and being sued; it may not be information that's required by law, but telling someone how to use the seat properly is our job. How are we supposed to know how to use it properly if they don't tell us?
What a mess.
FTR, I'm also ok with using the Monterey and PB without head support (and CA past 40", blah blah blah. I always use head support with the flimsier boosters.) But I need to know what I should be telling parents... and preferably not a recommendation to "read between the lines" or "track down and try to speak with the manufacturer." THIS IS WHY WE HAVE MANUALS!

 

[Avery'sMama]

The representative clearly said she is checking with the engineers to see if it is required or recommended. It seems it would be prudent to wait a bit here.

I live in Michigan near Recaro. I've trained some of their engineers and customer service reps in CPST courses. One of their engineers regularly volunteers, and I just had a rep at an event two weeks ago. They have donated seats to our SK coalition to be given out in one of the highest risk/lowest income areas in the US. It will take more than a customer service rep saying, "let me clarify this" to toss in the towel on their company. They care about kids in our community and show it with their actions.

Let's wait a bit and get a clear answer from Recaro before getting too upset. Keep in mind that Diono had a rep openly posting this information on a facebook page. That is very different than one person emailing a customer service rep. They don't know this is a big topic of discussion on a car seat board or that these emails are being posted publicly.

 

[Baylor]

The representative clearly said she is checking with the engineers to see if it is required or recommended. It seems it would be prudent to wait a bit here.

I live in Michigan near Recaro. I've trained some of their engineers and customer service reps in CPST courses. One of their engineers regularly volunteers, and I just had a rep at an event two weeks ago. They have donated seats to our SK coalition to be given out in one of the highest risk/lowest income areas in the US. It will take more than a customer service rep saying, "let me clarify this" to toss in the towel on their company. They care about kids in our community and show it with their actions.

Let's wait a bit and get a clear answer from Recaro before getting too upset. Keep in mind that Diono had a rep openly posting this information on a facebook page. That is very different than one person emailing a customer service rep. They don't know this is a big topic of discussion on a car seat board or that these emails are being posted publicly.

She already did check. The last email is out of order it was one I missed before posting the the third one stating what Engineer said. I only posted that 2nd one last to make sure I was giving all the information I was getting..

And if I did something wrong by sharing the emails. Please let me know and I can edit them out. I was so freaked I did not even consider it may be wrong.

 

[zactayaus]

Also the combination of high back boosters and no head rests has been around for many many years. If they were failing horribly in real world crashes I'm sure we would have heard of something long before this.

 

[An Aurora]

And what would the other option be? They most certainly will get whip lash with out a high back booster and I'm in the mind set that the majority of people who do not have head rests in their vehicles can not afford a $300 booster for their kids. So I'd much rather see them using a high back booster even a flimsy one if there is no head rest especially in the back of a pick up truck with only glass behind kiddos head.

ETA: This is just my opinion and I would make parents aware and let them make their own decision on the matter.

I'm not following. I'm not saying to not use a booster (obviously I know better )

 

[zactayaus]

I'm not following. I'm not saying to not use a booster (obviously I know better )

Well if someone has a vehicle with no head rests in their back seat and their kids heads are over the vehicle back in a backless booster and they don't 5 step yet then what option do parents have? That's all.

I'm stepping away from this thread now as I'm a totally non confrontational person and I feel it's getting a little heated so I'm outta here.

 

[Baylor]

I hope not. I think some of us are freaked out more than others.
I don't want anyone especially you to feel bad. I'm sorry if I am making you feel that way. I don't mean to at all. I'm just a little ticked at RECARO and freaked at not using a seat correctly when I thought I had done due diligence and thought I was.

auto correct hates me

 

[ketchupqueen]

Re: the Oobr: Yes, Clek has specifically told me the booster will perform well without a headrest. Yes, they even say if you have LATCH and fixed forward leaning headrests only the top needs to be in contact as there can be a gap when using it LATCHed-these due to the titanium support rods. They even list as a feature of the Oobr on their site ” structural head rest”- it's built like a vehicle headrest.

That said, not every kid is comfortable in it (although I've found that adding something for foot support and using recline really helps.) So it's a ”try before you buy” seat (or at least a ”be sure you're able to return” seat.)

 

[bree]

I'm a little confused.

It seems from reading this thread that there were no discrepancies about vehicle headrests between the Recaro stickers and manuals.

So why ask them about the issue? It seems, to me at least, to be inviting this type of CYA response by asking manufacturers about this issue when there aren't ambiguities present in their manuals/stickers that would otherwise prompt the question.

Is it just a reaction to the Monterey thing? Or where there ambiguities with the manuals and stickers which prompted the question to Recaro that I missed when reading the thread? Why ask Britax (as someone mentioned upthread); do they have discrepancies in their manuals?

 

[Qarin]

So why ask them about the issue?

Diono customer service actually claimed that "all other boosters" have this requirement; I'm not sure, but I think that's what prompted some people to actually contact the manufacturers of "all other boosters".

 

[Brianna]

Also the combination of high back boosters and no head rests has been around for many many years. If they were failing horribly in real world crashes I'm sure we would have heard of something long before this.

How many children ride in HBB when they're that tall outside of this forum? I think the majority of parents would already have them in a backless or nothing at that point.

Sent from my DROID4 using Car-Seat.Org

 

[An Aurora]

Well if someone has a vehicle with no head rests in their back seat and their kids heads are over the vehicle back in a backless booster and they don't 5 step yet then what option do parents have? That's all.

I'm stepping away from this thread now as I'm a totally non confrontational person and I feel it's getting a little heated so I'm outta here.

They need a high back booster that allows use without a headrest. Of which there are several.

 

[An Aurora]

Diono customer service actually claimed that "all other boosters" have this requirement; I'm not sure, but I think that's what prompted some people to actually contact the manufacturer's of "all other boosters".

Yes, and with the whole Monterey hubbub, several people started contacting manufacturers to affirm their use without a headrest, since even very knowledgeable techs weren't aware of the requirement with the Monterey.

 

[Qarin]

They need a high back booster that allows use without a headrest. Of which there are several.

Yes, but in the post that she was referring to, you seemed to say that you wouldn't use most other boosters even if they claim to allow use without a headrest:

this is not something I'm willing to disregard. If it's not going to adequately protect their necks in a crash, I'm not going to use it. I'm not going to use my Turbo either, though. If the steel reinforced Monterey isn't enough to provide adequate whiplash protection, how is plastic going to?

So you won't use the Monterey, VIVO, or ProBooster, per the manufacturers, or the Turbo Booster because it seems even weaker. Presumably you'd also pass on the Evenflo and Harmony seats, as well, for the "seems weaker" reason. Kind of doesn't leave a lot of affordable dedicated booster options!

 

[An Aurora]

Yes, but in the post that she was referring to, you seemed to say that you wouldn't use most other boosters even if they claim to allow use without a headrest:



So you won't use the Monterey, VIVO, or ProBooster, per the manufacturers, or the Turbo Booster because it seems even weaker. Presumably you'd also pass on the Evenflo and Harmony seats, as well, for the "seems weaker" reason. Kind of doesn't leave a lot of affordable dedicated booster options!

I said *I* wouldn't. She was talking about educating other people. I'm not going to tell people they have to buy a $350 booster when there are other options that allow it.

 

[Baylor]

I did reply again telling them that I was upset that this information completely contradicts the manual and that I had used it many times without headrest as per manual and would not have done so if I had known it was not allowed.

I have received no reply.

I moved the ProBooster to my Dh's explorer. His headrest goes high enough to be in the center of the PB headrest and the PB sits well in his car against back of seat.

I'd love to know what they heck the towel thing is.

I kind of feel naked with only 2 seats in my van now! I'm using the GN in booster mode for DS1 for now. Its the only thing I feel 100% okay about without headrest.

AS someone who is just a parent and relies on Manuals as I have been taught to by all the incredibly educated Techs and experts here, I just feel duped and unsettled about what to trust and not to trust.

I also do understand as Zactayaus pointed out that some protection is better than no protection. I know that you know much more than I do about the subject and do value your input.

Its just so dang confusing to figure with two completely different install directions.

 

[An Aurora]

Some is certainly better than none, but I'm not satisfied with some.

 

[LISmama810]

I'm not saying we disregard manufacturer instructions (even when we know what the heck those are).

That said...

I still contend that if these boosters cannot handle the rebound from a frontal impact, there are big problems. I don't think that's the case. Nor do I suspect that (most of) the high-back boosters out there cannot handle a child's head in a rear-end crash. The ones I'm suspect of aren't even ones that require vehicle head support.

I do not for one second believe that the Pro Booster and Monterey are going to fail to provide whiplash support in a crash. That does not, however, mean there isn't a problem.

While I have confidence in the product, I do not have confidence in a company that unnecessarily requires something that makes the seat incompatible for people who need it, and also massively contradicts conventional wisdom.

However, my thoughts that it is an unnecessary requirement are completely speculative. I *feel* and *think* that it's fine, but I'm not an engineer or anything even remotely approaching it.

 

[lovemybabies924]

Now I am wondering if I should keep my oobr.... does anyone know if the fr85 needs a headrest? I'm too lazy to look through the manual.. its raining lol

 

[Kat_Momof3]

wow... well, I'm not putting a towel because the space seems minimal and is only because I have the headrest on the captain's chair backwards so it doesn't push it forward AND I don't misplace the headrest.

but I will be watching... right now the booster is still where you could call the headrest being somewhat supportive and Ruthie just still isn't ready for no back boosters full time even in the secondary car...

I just think it's weird to see the ones with the metal reinforcements (sk/diono and recaro) backpedal on this one.

I'm hoping it's a cs error and that we can keep following our manuals.