Clek Foonf/Fllo vs. Diono Rainier

[moomoo536]

Maxi Cosi told me the Pria 70 and 85 have taken and passed the test (unofficially) and Peg said their convertible does too.

This is an interesting article, although old, about SIP. Rigid latch really does seem to be a major factor.

http://www.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/rulings/CPSUpgrade/CPSSide/PEA/Index.html

also about those youtube videos: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...shXYRPknnuDEQHBK9psmogA&bvm=bv.86475890,d.cWc

Wouldn't a RF tether or anti-rebound bar sort of achieve -- perhaps not to the same degree though -- the same thing as rigid latch?

 

[moomoo536]

The click tight advocate is about 1.5 - 2 inches slimmer!

Oh, really? I just looked online and the ClickTight looked even larger than the regular version. That is good to know though. Unfortunately, the only retailer in my area is Babies R Us and they aren't even sure if they will ever carry the seat in their store.

 

[moomoo536]

Maxi Cosi told me the Pria 70 and 85 have taken and passed the test (unofficially) and Peg said their convertible does too.

This is an interesting article, although old, about SIP. Rigid latch really does seem to be a major factor.

http://www.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/rulings/CPSUpgrade/CPSSide/PEA/Index.html

also about those youtube videos: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...shXYRPknnuDEQHBK9psmogA&bvm=bv.86475890,d.cWc

That's interesting that they shared that with you. I asked Britax for comment and was told that they do not have that information available to share -- not sure if that means they do have it but it's not cleared for disclosing or if they don't have the information at all. I asked the same thing of Diono and they had an entirely different response, which was that test equipment is not available for the side impact tests.

Does anyone have any thoughts why some companies are saying that their seats would unofficially pass while others are basically saying that they can't even perform the tests yet?

 

[moomoo536]

FWIW, I've had no progress in narrowing down my seats. I love the extended RF ability of the Advoate but I really do fear that my son might object to the legroom issue. Due to the recline of the RXT, he still has a decent amount of legroom right now. Putting the Advocate into my car with the maximum recline, I could tell that he'd be much more vertical and his legs much more bent/folded. He's nearly 36 inches tall already and turned 2 earlier this year.

 

[moomoo536]

That's interesting that they shared that with you. I asked Britax for comment and was told that they do not have that information available to share -- not sure if that means they do have it but it's not cleared for disclosing or if they don't have the information at all. I asked the same thing of Diono and they had an entirely different response, which was that test equipment is not available for the side impact tests.

Does anyone have any thoughts why some companies are saying that their seats would unofficially pass while others are basically saying that they can't even perform the tests yet?

Back here to (possibly) answer my own question. It looks like some seats were tested using the proposed test standards and injury criteria.

For anyone interested in reading the entire thing: https://www.federalregister.gov/art...tems-child-restraint-systems-side-impact#t-10

One of several tables showing the CRS performance results:
https://s3.amazonaws.com/images.federalregister.gov/EP28JA14.006/original.png

 

[Hazelandlucy]

FWIW, I've had no progress in narrowing down my seats. I love the extended RF ability of the Advoate but I really do fear that my son might object to the legroom issue. Due to the recline of the RXT, he still has a decent amount of legroom right now. Putting the Advocate into my car with the maximum recline, I could tell that he'd be much more vertical and his legs much more bent/folded. He's nearly 36 inches tall already and turned 2 earlier this year.

Just get the Fllo, you will love it! Tethering is getting to be outdated with advanced airbags and the Fllo/Foonf have the bar, three layers of foam for SIP, and lots of legroom. They also are more grown up looking and have crash energy management FF.


As far as the side impact test and carseat companies, I also had a very unreassuring response from Britax. Something like "we comply now with testing required and will comply in the future." I knew Dorel had a lot to do with the upcoming test and so asked them about the Pria 70 and got this "We tested the Pria 70 to the proposed standard last April and all proposed criteria was met with ample margin." I asked about the Pria 85 and they said it also passed when they tested it later on in the year. This is what Peg wrote me "Yes the Convertible will pass the upcoming side impact side test."

My issue with the Pria was no rebound control, a plastic frame, and a hard to tighten harness. The Peg is great, but no rebound bar in the US, a little less legroom than the Foonf (it actually measures the same as the Britax, but is wider in the leg area and I think that's why it seems to give more legroom), and doesn't last all that much longer than a Britax G4.


I asked Clek and can't find their answer, but it was something like they hadn't tested and didn't know, but it did great on their own tests.

 

[jwilliams]

The legroom on the Fllo really is amazing. My soon-to-be 3yo is 35.5" and barely even bends her legs, even without the ARB installed.

 

[moomoo536]

We have it (currently) narrowed down to the Foonf/Fllo and the Maxi Cosi Pria 70. My son turned 2 earlier this year and is nearly 36", so I suspect either seat will probably be outgrown RF sooner than I'd like.

We installed the Boulevard Clicktight today and, while the installation was a breeze, my husband wasn't too comfortable with how flexible the sidewall of the seat was. My son's legs were also much more squished than with the Pria. I think I would consider a Boulevard/Advocate if we were strictly looking for FF seats at this point, especially since it looks like they perform pretty well FF. My husband also preferred the air protect head wings, which he thought would matter in a side impact accident. (He's an engineer FWIW.)

My only reservation with the Foonf/Fllo is that, based on their own published data, it looks like their seats may possibly not perform as well under the new standard (caveat: total speculation on my part). The seat that seemed to perform the best, the Combi Zeus 360, appears to be discontinued.

We'll be doing a side-by-side comparison some other weekend between the Pria and the Foonf/Fllo to finalize our decision.

 

[jwilliams]

The Pria does have a 40" RF limit, which I imagine might be a concern for you.

 

[moomoo536]

The Pria does have a 40" RF limit, which I imagine might be a concern for you.

Yes, that's the thing I'm grappling with. My ideal seat would have the extended RFing capabilities of the Advocate but with some of the features of the Pria. Am I missing a seat that has ALL the features that I want?

Based on his growth curve, I think he will probably hit 40" around 3.5 yrs.

 

[jwilliams]

Yes, that's the thing I'm grappling with. My ideal seat would have the extended RFing capabilities of the Advocate but with some of the features of the Pria. Am I missing a seat that has ALL the features that I want?

I don't think there is. That stinks. I know that by the numbers, the Britax CTs are your best bet, but I also know that it's no fun getting a tall 4yo into a cramped seat, even if s/he is perfectly comfortable once buckled. Between Diono and Clek, the Cleks have a taller shell, even if it isn't CT tall.

I think you may also end up liking the rock solid install that the Clek seats provide through lock offs + ARB.

Well, at least maybe a few years down the road, your combination seat choice will be easier since with a tall kid you pretty much go Frontier or go home [emoji6]

 

[moomoo536]

I don't think there is. That stinks. I know that by the numbers, the Britax CTs are your best bet, but I also know that it's no fun getting a tall 4yo into a cramped seat, even if s/he is perfectly comfortable once buckled. Between Diono and Clek, the Cleks have a taller shell, even if it isn't CT tall.

I think you may also end up liking the rock solid install that the Clek seats provide through lock offs + ARB.

Well, at least maybe a few years down the road, your combination seat choice will be easier since with a tall kid you pretty much go Frontier or go home [emoji6]

Yes, it was actually hilarious trying to hoist my 2 year old into the Boulevard while it was in my husband's car (late model Accord). It felt like there was this tiny window, where I had to slide him through (while holding him nearly flat on his back) as if he were getting a MRI, and then dropped him into it without really being able to see what I was doing. It also felt like the Boulevard was just much closer to the arm rest and the door.

We looked at the Rainier and Cleks on the floor of the store and didn't have a chance to install them. When just comparing them that way and trying to measure the seat back, they didn't look terribly different. But maybe actually installing it in the car and putting my toddler in will change how high the seat back looks.

I think to be 100% thorough, we will need to go back and install the Advocate Clicktight to see what we think and then do the side-by-side comparison and install of the Pria and the Foonf/Fllo. We were dealing with both our vehicles while trying to keep our son occupied while he was held hostage in the cart. If only there were a less time consuming way.

 

[moomoo536]

Also, does anyone know if this statement is still true?

"Second, let’s talk crashes. According to NHTSA, roughly 60% of vehicle crashes are frontal impacts and 20% are side impacts."

Source: http://csftl.org/why-rear-facing-the-science-junkies-guide/

Based on what I've read (and unless I'm misunderstanding), it appears that 1/3rd of moving traffic accidents are actually frontal impacts and side-impacts comprise about ~20%.

I'm also a little unclear in how NHTSA actually counts multi-vehicle accidents. If Vehicle A strikes Vehicle B's rear, does it count as 1 rear-end or 1 rear-end and 1 frontal crash? Does anyone happen to know?

 

[Hazelandlucy]

Have you thought about the Safety 1st Advance 65 Air? The new one coming out in April goes to 50 lbs rear facing and is very tall with no 40" limit.

It has Gcell Hx - some sort of race car foam - throughout the whole body for total SIP and the air cushions for the head. Integrated cupholder like the Pria and TONS of legroom. The most legroom of any carseat by far on the market. Also has a steel reinforced frame unlike the Pria.

http://www.target.com/p/safety-1st-...pid=15195462&gclid=CJ3PkpvcmMQCFYY9aQodnywAWw

Dorel wrote me that the seat is the most advanced and "cutting edge" seat they have on the market.

 

[moomoo536]

Have you thought about the Safety 1st Advance 65 Air? The new one coming out in April goes to 50 lbs rear facing and is very tall with no 40" limit.

It has Gcell Hx - some sort of race car foam - throughout the whole body for total SIP and the air cushions for the head. Integrated cupholder like the Pria and TONS of legroom. The most legroom of any carseat by far on the market. Also has a steel reinforced frame unlike the Pria.

http://www.target.com/p/safety-1st-...pid=15195462&gclid=CJ3PkpvcmMQCFYY9aQodnywAWw

Dorel wrote me that the seat is the most advanced and "cutting edge" seat they have on the market.

Thank you for the suggestion. I have not heard of this seat. I also seem to be unable to locate a product page for it on Safety 1st's website, but maybe I'm getting confused with all their seats with similar sounding names. Have you come across a product page with more information? The video in the link you provided mentions a 40lb/40" limit for RF but maybe that is for the seat's predecessor.

 

[lgenne]

Here's the link for the current version of the seat: http://safety1st.djgusa.com/en/djgu...r--convertible-car-seat---st-germain-cc114ckj

There's supposed to be a new version of it coming out next month with 50 pound/49" height limits.

 

[moomoo536]

Here's the link for the current version of the seat: http://safety1st.djgusa.com/en/djgu...r--convertible-car-seat---st-germain-cc114ckj

There's supposed to be a new version of it coming out next month with 50 pound/49" height limits.

Thank you. I couldn't make heads or tails of all the various Safety 1st seats!

Guess I will have to wait a while to make an informed decision about these seats, but I do have until end of August (theoretically) to get this all sorted out.

I'm wondering why the steel bar is available in the Safety 1st seats but not the Maxi Cosi seats? It seems like Maxi Cosi is Dorel's more premium brand. I've tried to look into what constitutes the "FlexTech" energy management system, but aside from knowing that it's an internal truss system that's supposed to manage crash energy from various angles, I'm not really finding anything! You would think that they'd be touting this feature if it's considered more advanced/safer than what they offer in their Safety 1st brand.

 

[Hazelandlucy]

Thank you. I couldn't make heads or tails of all the various Safety 1st seats!

Guess I will have to wait a while to make an informed decision about these seats, but I do have until end of August (theoretically) to get this all sorted out.

I'm wondering why the steel bar is available in the Safety 1st seats but not the Maxi Cosi seats? It seems like Maxi Cosi is Dorel's more premium brand. I've tried to look into what constitutes the "FlexTech" energy management system, but aside from knowing that it's an internal truss system that's supposed to manage crash energy from various angles, I'm not really finding anything! You would think that they'd be touting this feature if it's considered more advanced/safer than what they offer in their Safety 1st brand.

This is the response I got when I asked a similar question.

"In regards to the price difference, one thing to keep in mind is oftentimes, you are looking at premium soft goods and name brand. Maxi-Cosi is a premium/top name brand - the highest name brand that we manufacture in fact. Along with plusher fabrics and fabric goods, these features alone can attribute to a higher cost in product.

You are correct, the Pria does not have the steel truss like the Safety 1st model does. The Pria with TinyFit does have Air Protect in both the headrest and the TinyFit accessory as well should you choose that model, which allow for full torso protection during use of that feature. However, it doesn’t have any additional foam like the Safety 1st Air Protect+ models do with the GCell HX foam.

I can tell you with certainty that either seat is just as safe as the other. They are both tested in the same manner and both meet/exceed all government regulations and standards.

Until we can get you the additional information you have requested, what I can advise you is that your decision is likely going to come down to the features you like the best or feel most comfortable with. Do you want brand new state-of-the art technology in the full-body protection? If so, you might want to go with the Advanced Air model as the GCell is extremely popular and as cutting edge as we have out there at this time.

Do you prefer a name brand and plush top of the line soft goods and fabric packages? If so, you might wish to go with one of the Pria models. This would also depend on the size of your little one as well.

The newer Pria85 is designed for older toddlers so it is larger than the 70 of course, but it has the easy out harness clips (which make it very easy to load/unload your child with the harness) and we have now released with this model machine-washable seat padding! That is highly coveted for many parents so this might be a feature that is important to you. The padding can be removed and put in the wash (according to the care instructions) without removing the harness as well which is a huge ease-of-use feature.

So you see, for many parents, it is really going to come down to preference. These seats are required to meet/exceed the exact same government standards and regulations so one is not safer than the other. There just might be features that you like more than the other or that give you better peace of mind than the other. The cost to make one might be higher than the other which contributes to pricing, etc."

Now why they can't put the "brand new state of the art" technology into the Pria I have no idea.

 

[Cnidaria]

Here is the announcement about the 50 lb/49" version of the Safety 1st Advance coming out in April: https://m.facebook.com/CarSeatsForTheLittles/posts/656718107782650:0

 

[moomoo536]

This is the response I got when I asked a similar question.

"In regards to the price difference, one thing to keep in mind is oftentimes, you are looking at premium soft goods and name brand. Maxi-Cosi is a premium/top name brand - the highest name brand that we manufacture in fact. Along with plusher fabrics and fabric goods, these features alone can attribute to a higher cost in product.

You are correct, the Pria does not have the steel truss like the Safety 1st model does. The Pria with TinyFit does have Air Protect in both the headrest and the TinyFit accessory as well should you choose that model, which allow for full torso protection during use of that feature. However, it doesn’t have any additional foam like the Safety 1st Air Protect+ models do with the GCell HX foam.

I can tell you with certainty that either seat is just as safe as the other. They are both tested in the same manner and both meet/exceed all government regulations and standards.

Until we can get you the additional information you have requested, what I can advise you is that your decision is likely going to come down to the features you like the best or feel most comfortable with. Do you want brand new state-of-the art technology in the full-body protection? If so, you might want to go with the Advanced Air model as the GCell is extremely popular and as cutting edge as we have out there at this time.

Do you prefer a name brand and plush top of the line soft goods and fabric packages? If so, you might wish to go with one of the Pria models. This would also depend on the size of your little one as well.

The newer Pria85 is designed for older toddlers so it is larger than the 70 of course, but it has the easy out harness clips (which make it very easy to load/unload your child with the harness) and we have now released with this model machine-washable seat padding! That is highly coveted for many parents so this might be a feature that is important to you. The padding can be removed and put in the wash (according to the care instructions) without removing the harness as well which is a huge ease-of-use feature.

So you see, for many parents, it is really going to come down to preference. These seats are required to meet/exceed the exact same government standards and regulations so one is not safer than the other. There just might be features that you like more than the other or that give you better peace of mind than the other. The cost to make one might be higher than the other which contributes to pricing, etc."

Now why they can't put the "brand new state of the art" technology into the Pria I have no idea.

Anytime I hear the "they are all just as safe because they all pass the same requirements" line, it makes me want to bang my head against a wall. Clearly, based on the link I posted earlier, some seats do perform better than others.

As for why the Pria costs so much more and doesn't appear to have the same level of safety features, I really find it hard to believe that this is not a design-related decision and a, "we're going to charge more because we can." It seemed like it would have been a perfect opportunity to talk about the FlexTech technology (whatever that is) and its benefits that is in the Pria.

With all that said, I'm glad that they responded to you in the way that they did. It actually seems much more transparent than I would have expected for a car seat manufacturer. It gives me some additional things to think about...