Clek Foonf/Fllo vs. Diono Rainier

[moomoo536]

Hi All,

I am hoping to get opinions on which seat one THINKS might be safer (both RF and FF) in an outboard position in a 2013 Subaru Outback. I know that there is no standard for side impact testing yet, so I realize that this is entirely subjective and that this question is probably without enough context for those who really like to give an individualized response.

My car has side airbag curtains. Would it, theoretically, be safer to have a higher-sitting seat (like the Foonf) to take advantage of that? Would the fact that the Foonf/Fllo is more like a cocoon in shape confer any advantages during a crash? Would the materials that are used in each seat make a difference? The Rainier seems a little more padded to me and I definitely prefer that it seems a little less...plastic in construction. But I'm not a physics expert, so perhaps plastic would actually be safer in a side impact. Would the Fllo's RFing rebound bar make it a more stable seat during a crash than the Rainier with a tether?

I know what I'm asking for is conjecture but really just looking for people's hands-on impressions since that is all I can go really go on until some uniform standards are established. Ease of install is also not a factor for me. Would one seat be better FFing? The sales associate thought that the Foonf/Fllo would be more comfortable due to the recline.

I am looking to buy a seat by this fall and price isn't really an issue. My son will be about a few months shy of turning 3 by then. He is above average in height (currently between 35"-36" tall) and will likely hit the height/shell limits RFing before the weight limits (40%ile for weight). I would like to keep him RFing for as long as possible, which is why I've narrowed it down to these 3 seats.

Thanks so much for all your help!

 

[Hazelandlucy]

The Foonf has three layers of EPS foam and a Magnesium/steel frame. The sides are deeper as well. I also remember reading that an anti rebound bar stabilizes the seat more in a side impact than a tether.
So I would vote for the Foonf in a side impact. Forward facing I don't think the Foonf can be beat with the REACT system and rigid latch (which also helps with side impact stability.)

 

[Persimmon]

Caveat: I am not a tech so don't have any technical knowledge. I thought I would reply since you were looking for hands-on impressions.

My answer would be whichever seat your DS likes better and will mostly likely be used properly every time. Seriously. I went through the same decision making process with my DS at 3. (Yes, I was that mom who spent a ridiculous amount of money to keep her freshly 3 year old RF when real world safety issues are just getting kids in seats and properly restrained.) Around here, very few kids were RF and as we got closer to 4 keeping DS happily RF became more and more of a factor. We ended up with a Foonf, but that was mainly because my DH is car seat challenged and a ridiculously easy harness adjuster was paramount to getting DS properly restrained. DS also really liked sitting up higher so he could see out better in the Foonf. He also is a sucker for anything green. I also thought the FF safety feature of the Foonf might actually work. Don't forget Clek does allow LATCH plus seat belt after the FF LATCH limit has been reached to better take advantage of the FF REACT safety system. I haven't been keeping up with what Subaru's call on if that is if you haven't already figured that part out. They told me no (and then referred me to this forum ) when I emailed them, but the Foonf had just been released and I figured there hadn't been enough time for them to formulate a well considered answer. You are going to hit the LATCH limit fast FF since you are RF for so long so the benefits of rigid LATCH will be limited, and my understanding is the benefits of the REACT will be significantly reduced, if you don't go with LATCH plus seat belt.

You have a great car safety-wise so I think that is a big plus. I will say that in my 09 Forester manual there is a section on not messing with the passenger seat due to the air bag sensors--no umbrellas stored underneath the seat, nothing heavy stored in the storage pocket on the back of the seat, etc---so if you go with a RF tether you may want to investigate Subaru's take on that if you don't already know (or of that is even a factor anymore. I haven't been keeping up with tethering either.) I always used the driver's side seat anchor for tethering since the manual didn't have the same restrictions for that side. If your DS is outboard behind the driver that is going to make it hard for you to pass anything back to him though. I liked being able to RF DS in recline 2 versus the more reclined level 3 for DS so he sat more upright. Clek has been very helpful with all of my questions and I have been able to get answers from a tech and not just a customer support person.

Are you going to fly with the seat? The Foonf is heavy and doesn't fold up like the Rainer. I have carried my Foonf up stairs into a small plane in the cold. Not fun. I will say ease of install was a big plus putting it properly into random rental cars/cabs when tired or rushed though. In general, not a travel seat though.

 

[jwilliams]

Going into pure conjecture, I would say the Clek seats' ARB might give them the advantage RF. I am also not a fan of RF tethering. I think there's a fairly good chance most manufacturers are just going to start saying NO.

FF, I don't really know. I do know that with the Clek seats, if you don't want to worry about being able to use the rigid LATCH and a seatbelt, the Fllo is made so that you get the benefit of the energy management system using just a seatbelt install.

Something else to consider is ease of loading through your smallish door openings. Ultimately I would go with the seat that you find easiest to load, adjust, and generally just live with.

 

[thepote]

I bought the Foonf specifically to FF my DD outboard. Before that she was RF in a Radian in the center. I, personally, won't use a Diono outboard if I can help it, and especially not FF outboard. This is based on no data, and I will continue to recommend them to others.

There is some evidence that rigid latch helps in side impacts, and they market the REACT system as FF crash energy management so I went for that for DD. But that's obviously thin on evidence and more to do with marketing.

I've watched hundreds of crash test videos so I guess I've extended my seat criteria to address some of the things I've seen in crash tests.

This is most definitely not the party line here, only my personal preference.

 

[Hazelandlucy]

I bought the Foonf specifically to FF my DD outboard. Before that she was RF in a Radian in the center. I, personally, won't use a Diono outboard if I can help it, and especially not FF outboard. This is based on no data, and I will continue to recommend them to others.

There is some evidence that rigid latch helps in side impacts, and they market the REACT system as FF crash energy management so I went for that for DD. But that's obviously thin on evidence and more to do with marketing.

I've watched hundreds of crash test videos so I guess I've extended my seat criteria to address some of the things I've seen in crash tests.

This is most definitely not the party line here, only my personal preference.

At least Clek does back up the REACT with releasing the crash test numbers, which are fantastic forward facing. I like the Foonf and the Britax seats for FF with all the energy management. But maybe it is just marketing - I know the Peg has "SAFE" and the Dionos have "safe stop" and the Pria has "Flex Tech"....but they don't emphasize that much or explain it like Britax does with Safecell/Versa tether/HUGS or Clek does with REACT/EACT.

 

[Rm2000hg]

Because your son is tall, I'm wondering if the clicktight Boulevard would let him stay rear facing for longer than the Ranier or Foonf/Fllo?

 

[nataliem257]

I'm gonna go the other way and go with the Rainier. I personally have more faith in the side impact that actually absorbs crash forces, like the Advocate and the Rainier, than I do deep sides or headwings. IMO, that would have more of an impact on crash performance because it isn't affected by where the child's head is at time of crash, unlike deep sides or headwings.

 

[Kel]

Hello!
I'm guessing that the radians might have an edge already because the sit lower. I'm thinking it's probably safer to sit lower in the seat. That's just a guess of course.

I just got a rxt last week. My DD will be 3 next month. She was RFing in Mr ride 65, witch is her favorite seat. I know from experience that she reject all other seats, lol. So I let her pick from a couple seats and she picked the Spring rxt because of the flowers.
I wouldn't pick the foonf unless you want to use it FF later. I knew I wouldn't for a couple different reasons. For one, my latch is center of my bench seats, so it will block my vision. Second I looked up older kid pics of them in it FF ing and wasn't impressed. They looked squished and the seat pans look kind of shallow.

Also, the Rxt is easily boxed up and shipped if I want to sell later.

 

[Cnidaria]

This article may be of use to you, regarding which seats are best RFing for tall but not heavy kids and heavy but not tall kids. http://carseatblog.com/31265/best-c...cing-the-definitive-guide-for-savvy-shoppers/

And we just don't know about seats' features. It seems entirely plausible to me that "features" like Diono's SafeStop and Britax's HUGS are actually making up for *deficits* incurred by having a stiff metal frame. In some crashes, maybe it's actually better to have a flexible plastic seat. I seem to recall that Consumer Reports gave top marks to the lowly Scenera in its crash tests a few years back -- now, they aren't very transparent about their methodology either and I definitely take anything CR says about car seats with a HUGE grain of salt, but it's certainly interesting.

 

[Cnidaria]

Seems like a ClickTight Boulevard or Advocate might be up your alley. RFs to a full 40 lbs no matter how tall your kid is, anti-rebound bar available, energy management for FFing. And the Advocate has the extra side-impact cushions on the sides.

 

[Cnidaria]

Downside would be leg room RFing.

 

[Hazelandlucy]

Downside would be leg room RFing.

I have my 37 inch relatively short legged 3 yr old in a click tight on vacation right now and the legroom really is terrible! She doesn't complain, but she is really cramped, especially if I install it more upright. I wish Britax had added a bit more seat depth now that the height limit is so high.

 

[moomoo536]

Caveat: I am not a tech so don't have any technical knowledge. I thought I would reply since you were looking for hands-on impressions.

My answer would be whichever seat your DS likes better and will mostly likely be used properly every time. Seriously. I went through the same decision making process with my DS at 3. (Yes, I was that mom who spent a ridiculous amount of money to keep her freshly 3 year old RF when real world safety issues are just getting kids in seats and properly restrained.) Around here, very few kids were RF and as we got closer to 4 keeping DS happily RF became more and more of a factor. We ended up with a Foonf, but that was mainly because my DH is car seat challenged and a ridiculously easy harness adjuster was paramount to getting DS properly restrained. DS also really liked sitting up higher so he could see out better in the Foonf. He also is a sucker for anything green. I also thought the FF safety feature of the Foonf might actually work. Don't forget Clek does allow LATCH plus seat belt after the FF LATCH limit has been reached to better take advantage of the FF REACT safety system. I haven't been keeping up with what Subaru's call on if that is if you haven't already figured that part out. They told me no (and then referred me to this forum ) when I emailed them, but the Foonf had just been released and I figured there hadn't been enough time for them to formulate a well considered answer. You are going to hit the LATCH limit fast FF since you are RF for so long so the benefits of rigid LATCH will be limited, and my understanding is the benefits of the REACT will be significantly reduced, if you don't go with LATCH plus seat belt.

You have a great car safety-wise so I think that is a big plus. I will say that in my 09 Forester manual there is a section on not messing with the passenger seat due to the air bag sensors--no umbrellas stored underneath the seat, nothing heavy stored in the storage pocket on the back of the seat, etc---so if you go with a RF tether you may want to investigate Subaru's take on that if you don't already know (or of that is even a factor anymore. I haven't been keeping up with tethering either.) I always used the driver's side seat anchor for tethering since the manual didn't have the same restrictions for that side. If your DS is outboard behind the driver that is going to make it hard for you to pass anything back to him though. I liked being able to RF DS in recline 2 versus the more reclined level 3 for DS so he sat more upright. Clek has been very helpful with all of my questions and I have been able to get answers from a tech and not just a customer support person.

Are you going to fly with the seat? The Foonf is heavy and doesn't fold up like the Rainer. I have carried my Foonf up stairs into a small plane in the cold. Not fun. I will say ease of install was a big plus putting it properly into random rental cars/cabs when tired or rushed though. In general, not a travel seat though.

Thank you for your thoughts! My son isn't particular (at least not yet) about the seat, though he has a preference for the color (blue), which he expressed when we were looking at the Fllo/Foonf and Rainier in person.

We've never used the LATCH installation, so we will likely always just go ahead with the seat belt install since that is what we're used to and feel comfortable with. However, if a LATCH + belt install would definitely yield more protection during a crash, that would be something for me to consider.

Thanks for the note about tethering. I don't remember seeing any prohibitions or guidance about it in my Outback manual but I will double check to be sure.

As for flying, we still have 2 RXTs, which we have flown with before and probably will use in the event that we fly, but that is not bound to be a common occurrence; we've rarely traveled since he was born, unfortunately, and probably will continue favoring car trips. What I do like about the RXTs, or the Dionos, in general, is that they just FEEL solid. Maybe that doesn't really have much of an impact during an actual crash but it sort of makes me THINK that maybe the seat would withstand more force. We also looked at the NextFit, and while I liked the ease, it just felt more...malleable and plasticky.

 

[moomoo536]

I bought the Foonf specifically to FF my DD outboard. Before that she was RF in a Radian in the center. I, personally, won't use a Diono outboard if I can help it, and especially not FF outboard. This is based on no data, and I will continue to recommend them to others.

There is some evidence that rigid latch helps in side impacts, and they market the REACT system as FF crash energy management so I went for that for DD. But that's obviously thin on evidence and more to do with marketing.

I've watched hundreds of crash test videos so I guess I've extended my seat criteria to address some of the things I've seen in crash tests.

This is most definitely not the party line here, only my personal preference.

Did you have a chance to check out the new Diono seats? I was personally a little apprehensive about the shallow sides on the RXT, especially in an outboard position, but the Rainier seems like a definite improvement in side impact protection. Whether it's sufficient, though, I can't say...

 

[moomoo536]

This article may be of use to you, regarding which seats are best RFing for tall but not heavy kids and heavy but not tall kids. http://carseatblog.com/31265/best-c...cing-the-definitive-guide-for-savvy-shoppers/

And we just don't know about seats' features. It seems entirely plausible to me that "features" like Diono's SafeStop and Britax's HUGS are actually making up for *deficits* incurred by having a stiff metal frame. In some crashes, maybe it's actually better to have a flexible plastic seat. I seem to recall that Consumer Reports gave top marks to the lowly Scenera in its crash tests a few years back -- now, they aren't very transparent about their methodology either and I definitely take anything CR says about car seats with a HUGE grain of salt, but it's certainly interesting.

Thank you! My friend actually sent me that link today. She is sort of in the same predicament as I am except her son is already in an outboard position but quickly outgrowing the RF capabilities of his seat -- think he was in the Peg Perego convertible. Mine still has a few inches to go before hitting the RXT's limit but my concern is putting him in an outboard position and protecting him in the event that there was an impact on the side he's sitting on.

Yes, I totally hear you. Wish we could have a crash/biomechanical engineer chime in here with any intuition. My husband is an electrical engineer but seemed to think sitting lower on the seat would be protective, to echo PP's comment.

 

[moomoo536]

Going into pure conjecture, I would say the Clek seats' ARB might give them the advantage RF. I am also not a fan of RF tethering. I think there's a fairly good chance most manufacturers are just going to start saying NO.

FF, I don't really know. I do know that with the Clek seats, if you don't want to worry about being able to use the rigid LATCH and a seatbelt, the Fllo is made so that you get the benefit of the energy management system using just a seatbelt install.

Something else to consider is ease of loading through your smallish door openings. Ultimately I would go with the seat that you find easiest to load, adjust, and generally just live with.

Yes, I fear having the seat in the center of the row has spoiled me. It's made loading/unloading and buckling him far easier since I just sit beside him. I am not even really sure what it would feel like to have to do that while standing next to the car.

 

[moomoo536]

I really appreciate everyone's responses! Seems like the Clek is in the lead followed by suggestions for Britax and the Rainier.

 

[moomoo536]

I'm gonna go the other way and go with the Rainier. I personally have more faith in the side impact that actually absorbs crash forces, like the Advocate and the Rainier, than I do deep sides or headwings. IMO, that would have more of an impact on crash performance because it isn't affected by where the child's head is at time of crash, unlike deep sides or headwings.

Is there anyone on this board that might have any guesses as to which seats might currently fail/pass the new side impact testing standards that were proposed in January 2014 by NHTSA? I remembered it mentioning protection for the full body, which is why I'm wondering if the Rainier will need any further adjustments since the walls have only gotten deeper towards the head but not by the abdomen.

One alternative that MIGHT work is to put my infant in the outboard position (Chicco Keyfit) and keep my son in the RXT in the center...assuming that this configuration works in my vehicle, to buy me some extra time before getting a new seat that will hopefully comply with the standard.

 

[jwilliams]

The KeyFit and a FF RXT typically play very nicely together. That was my configuration (with a second KeyFit on the other side) in a Honda Insight.