2012 Mini Van Confusion!

[todzwife]

We bought a 2012 Sienna just a month ago and I love it. I don't worry about my kids being on the outboard seats, there are airbags everywhere and they are all in appropriate car seats.

The 8th seat is more of a "oh, we have an extra person today" type of seat. I don't know that I'd want anyone sitting there permanently. I can install a coccoro on it, but it's VERY narrow so only the narrowest seat (coccoro or a bubble bum) would fit.

We looked at the 2012 Odyssey and I honestly liked the interior better on it because the seating configurations and center seat, but the tranny issues had me worried as well. Also, DH likes the look of the Sienna better and getting him to agree to ANY minivan, I was willing to compromise.

It drives like a dream, smooth and not too much road noise. Installing most seats is a breeze and having the room in so wonderful! The price point was slightly less than the Odyssey as well (a few grand).


Something to consider though, Toyota REALLY dropped the ball on the latch/tether anchors in the back row. There is only ONE set in the center of the back. This wasn't an issue for us because we have 2 older kids who can be booster riders, but if you have a bunch of small kids who all ride harnessed, this could potentially be an issue.

 

[elyrayday]

Thanks for your insight into the 2012 Sienna, Todzwife. It seems strange that Toyota has not corrected the latch/anchor issue in the 2012, since from my understanding this problem arose in the 2011 model. The lack of Latch I could deal with (seatbelt installs) but having no tether makes things really hard. We are just starting our family, so it is my understanding that we will be needing top tethers for some time to come. We only plan to have 3 kids, but it would be frustrating to be so limited with placement.

Does anyone know if the 2013 Sienna has any improvements coming? Or will it basically be the same as 2012?

As for the 8th seat, yes, that was my impression. Not an everyday seating position in the Sienna. If only I could swap out the interior for the Ody's and keep the reliability of the Sienna. Sigh.

 

[todzwife]

Thanks for your insight into the 2012 Sienna, Todzwife. It seems strange that Toyota has not corrected the latch/anchor issue in the 2012, since from my understanding this problem arose in the 2011 model. The lack of Latch I could deal with (seatbelt installs) but having no tether makes things really hard. We are just starting our family, so it is my understanding that we will be needing top tethers for some time to come. We only plan to have 3 kids, but it would be frustrating to be so limited with placement.

Does anyone know if the 2013 Sienna has any improvements coming? Or will it basically be the same as 2012?

As for the 8th seat, yes, that was my impression. Not an everyday seating position in the Sienna. If only I could swap out the interior for the Ody's and keep the reliability of the Sienna. Sigh.

No problem If you're only planning on 3 kids, the upper anchor problem should be a moot point anyway, since there are 3 full sets of latch/anchors in the Sienna. Right now, we have 3 kids and my booster rider is in the very back and my almost 6 year old is in the passenger/s captain (she's still harnessed in a frontier 85) and my baby is RFing in a Radian 65SL in the drivers captain. The center is left open for DS to get to the back seat. Sometimes though, my 6 YO rides in the back, in a booster outboard as well because she's booster training and it works well back there.

A few weeks ago, DS actually rode in the 8th seat. He nearly 5 steps (I don't love where the shoulder belt is, but the lap belt is great and his feet touch) He's a leggy 8 year old.

Overall, I love the van. The 3 quirks I don't like are the anchor issue, the fact that the 8th seat snaps into a plastic console on the floor that doesn't remove means that the console is ALWAYS there and DS has to not step on it. It's not a huge deal though. And I don't love the tracks that the captains chairs slide on because they collect dirt/sand/food. It's not a big deal to vacuum them out though. Other than those 3 kinks, I LOVE it! Let me know if you need any pictures.

 

[elyrayday]

No problem If you're only planning on 3 kids, the upper anchor problem should be a moot point anyway, since there are 3 full sets of latch/anchors in the Sienna. Right now, we have 3 kids and my booster rider is in the very back and my almost 6 year old is in the passenger/s captain (she's still harnessed in a frontier 85) and my baby is RFing in a Radian 65SL in the drivers captain. The center is left open for DS to get to the back seat. Sometimes though, my 6 YO rides in the back, in a booster outboard as well because she's booster training and it works well back there.

A few weeks ago, DS actually rode in the 8th seat. He nearly 5 steps (I don't love where the shoulder belt is, but the lap belt is great and his feet touch) He's a leggy 8 year old.

Overall, I love the van. The 3 quirks I don't like are the anchor issue, the fact that the 8th seat snaps into a plastic console on the floor that doesn't remove means that the console is ALWAYS there and DS has to not step on it. It's not a huge deal though. And I don't love the tracks that the captains chairs slide on because they collect dirt/sand/food. It's not a big deal to vacuum them out though. Other than those 3 kinks, I LOVE it! Let me know if you need any pictures.

I guess I am new to all this car seat stuff. Is the anchor a moot point assuming I would use the 3 sets of LATCH for my install? If we need a different arrangement from the 3 LATCH positions, what would happen then? For example, if we need a little one in a 3rd row outboard install using a seat belt for install, wouldn't we need an anchor to go with it?

Thanks for the info about the tracks and plastic console. Those are two more things that would be nice to have fixed in the 2013! Do you happen to know if those things were a problem in the 2011 as well? Everyone on this board seems to think the Sienna had a better thing going before 2011 (8th seat more substantial, better latch/anchor offerings, etc)....isn't it strange how car companies decide to take steps backwards sometimes? Don't get me wrong - the 2012 is totally nice. But it just seems so much less flexible for young families.

 

[elyrayday]

One other questions for Mini Vans in general - how does the third row compare to a car/station wagon's back seat safety wise? Is the 3rd row of a mini van safer/less safe than the back seat of a car/station wagon?

The reason I ask is I am trying to gauge how much I care about the ability to have 3 across in the 2nd row. Ideally DS1 would be in a middle 2nd row seat (like the 2012 Ody would allow...) but I might be willing to keep him in the outboard instead since trans issues are so concerning. Since we are planning on 2 little ones, I would like to know whether having 3 across in the second row (like the 2012 Ody allows...) would be beneficial safety wise as well.

 

[Guest]

A 3rd row in a car/station wagon is gonna be rear facing. If you can even find it. Frankly, those seats are scary. They're more afterthoughts than a 3rd row in a minivan, which has crash testing in mind when designing a vehicle with 3rd rows.

Safety wise, there's no perfect solution. Overall, I'd feel MUCH safer however you put the kids in a minivan than in a 3 row station wagon. Same with a SUV, altho SUVs are less safe than minivans for different reasons than a station wagon.

Basically, for 3 rows, minivans trump station wagons or SUVs in both safety and practicality by quite large margins.

As for the Honda vs Toyota debate, it's pretty iffy. Frankly, I'd just get an extended warranty and get the car you like better. There do seem to be a rash of transmission issues over the past decade or so from ALL manufacturers it seems. Toyota isn't immune. Their "new" tranny they brag about is MUCH more fragile. Depending on the car, it does weird things. My Lexus had some weird "surge" at certain shift points. I have two Toyota mechanics in the family and they admit it's nowhere near as good as older Toyota transmissions. Apparently, to make it lighter and simpler, they took out everything that made it strong.

 

[Guest]

And for what it's worth, we're still getting the Odyssey. That's with two Toyota mechanics in the family meaning free or severely discounted service/parts.

I bought the Lexus specifically because it was a model they could service (it's really just a fancy Camry) and get parts for.

 

[elyrayday]

A 3rd row in a car/station wagon is gonna be rear facing. If you can even find it. Frankly, those seats are scary. They're more afterthoughts than a 3rd row in a minivan, which has crash testing in mind when designing a vehicle with 3rd rows.

Safety wise, there's no perfect solution. Overall, I'd feel MUCH safer however you put the kids in a minivan than in a 3 row station wagon. Same with a SUV, altho SUVs are less safe than minivans for different reasons than a station wagon.

Basically, for 3 rows, minivans trump station wagons or SUVs in both safety and practicality by quite large margins.

As for the Honda vs Toyota debate, it's pretty iffy. Frankly, I'd just get an extended warranty and get the car you like better. There do seem to be a rash of transmission issues over the past decade or so from ALL manufacturers it seems. Toyota isn't immune. Their "new" tranny they brag about is MUCH more fragile. Depending on the car, it does weird things. My Lexus had some weird "surge" at certain shift points. I have two Toyota mechanics in the family and they admit it's nowhere near as good as older Toyota transmissions. Apparently, to make it lighter and simpler, they took out everything that made it strong.

Thanks for the response. My question might be misleading, since I am not really considering any vehicles with 3 rows aside from mini vans. I am trying to figure out how much a 3-across second row mini van means to me (Odyssey). With 3 kids (our goal), we would spill into the 3rd row of a 7-seater. Is the 3rd row of the minivan much less safe than having them all in three across in the 2nd row? Is using that 3rd row in a minivan safer or less safe than the standard back seat of a station wagon or sedan (like just a regular old back seat of a wagon/sedan)?

 

[elyrayday]

After reading some reviews, I felt compelled to at least peek at the Town and Country and Caravans (2012s). I have to say, for the money it is pretty overwhelming how much you get. For less than a mid-low range Sienna or Ody, you basically get it all - power doors and gates, back up camera, dvd players. And the safety rating from what I could tell are about the same. Am I missing something? Why does the Ody cost so much more? And even the Sienna too? Are they really that much better?

By the way, I recongnize that the pre-2011 were pretty bad...but these seem to be getting good reviews from what I can tell...

Would really like to know if any one is giving these a try, what the latch/tether situation is for them, and if there is any good reason to stay away from these.

 

[elyrayday]

Ok, so I just pulled up the 2012 owner's manual for Town and Country and Dodge Caravan. They both say:

"Two LATCH child restraint anchorage systems are installed on all
second-row seats and in the center position on all third
row fold-in-floor seats. Second-row seats also feature
tether strap anchorages, located in the rear surface of the seatback. In addition, all third row fold-in-floor seats are
equipped with a child restraint tether anchor at the center
seating position."

From what I understand, this is identical to Sienna. Obviously not as good as Ody. Any thoughts?

 

[Dillipop]

If you're open to other models, the Kia Sedona gets great crash scores and has 4 anchor points, I think. It's only available with 7 seats though. If I were looking for a new van, I'd consider the kia before the dodge/chrysler twins.

 

[tl01]

I find the quality to not be in the same league. I drove a new town and country recently as a rental and it has as many miles as my ody and the town an country creaked and groaned everywhere. It made so many body flexing and other sounds that I couldn't wait to get mine back. These noises were way louder than the music in the car and it made the noises every time I accelerated, decelerated, turned, entered a driveway etc. A solidly built van is way important to me. I can't stand hearing the car make noise as it ages... Especially at 10k miles.

 

[elyrayday]

I hear you guys about quality being worth extra money.. I just want to be sure I don't miss out on awesome features like power gate and DVD players by merely being prejudiced against US cars like T&C or Caravan.

I agree with Quasee. My 2011 ody does a strange thing like hers with the tranny... But I agree that trannies are just cheaper nowadays. I think the fancy computers in then messes them up to. That said, our odyies have a totally different tranny than the ones everyone is worried about since we have the 6 speed. Honda eventually worked out the tranny issue in the previous generation. I can tell that most every car... Rental or my own has tranny issues. I'd buy the extended warranty Honda care. You can negotiate the price and if you don't live in Florida or California you can buy it through a particular dealer who sells it for an amazing price.

I noticed in your earlier post that yours is the 6 speed. We would only be able to afford the Ody EX, which I understand is a 5 speed. Any thoughts on this transmission in the 2012?

 

[elyrayday]

If you're open to other models, the Kia Sedona gets great crash scores and has 4 anchor points, I think. It's only available with 7 seats though. If I were looking for a new van, I'd consider the kia before the dodge/chrysler twins.

Thanks for the idea. I just looked into the safety rating of the Sedona, and it's actually not doing that great. On IIHS it is not a top safety pick (whereas the dodge/chrylsers are) and it is not rated in the 5 start tests. Dodge/Chrysler actually do very well on both of these tests and are considered top safety picks.

 

[tl01]

I hear you guys about quality being worth extra money.. I just want to be sure I don't miss out on awesome features like power gate and DVD players by merely being prejudiced against US cars like T&C or Caravan.



I noticed in your earlier post that yours is the 6 speed. We would only be able to afford the Ody EX, which I understand is a 5 speed. Any thoughts on this transmission in the 2012?

Don't hold me to this... but I think eventually Honda switched their tranny to the one similar to the tranny in the Ridgeline which is their sort of truck. I believe that the original tranny that started the issue was a 4 speed and the 5 speed is a different tranny or a very modified version.

I don't know much else. The car was just redesigned in 2011 and so it is hard to know a whole lot about it. I know that when Honda had a lot of problems with their tranny, they did extend the warranty to cover issues.

 

[CDNTech]

We leased an '03 Grand Caravan for 4.5 years and then bought an '08 Grand Caravan. At the time we purchased the '08, we test drove the Ody and Sienna as well. The Caravan was quieter, had great safety ratings, and came with all the bells and whistles for a much cheaper price. I loved our van... we ended up only keeping it for 1.5 years and then downsized to an '09 Escape (which I still have and adore). We only sold the van because we had finally been told we would not be able to have any more bio children and decided we really didn't need a van for just two kids... now we're adopting and I'm looking at getting another van, looking at the Caravan Crew version with second row heated seats. My oldest is passing the 5 step test in some vehicles and I know he'll appreciate those heated seats when he's fully out of a booster, I know I appreciate them in the front seat.

 

[elyrayday]

Don't hold me to this... but I think eventually Honda switched their tranny to the one similar to the tranny in the Ridgeline which is their sort of truck. I believe that the original tranny that started the issue was a 4 speed and the 5 speed is a different tranny or a very modified version.

I don't know much else. The car was just redesigned in 2011 and so it is hard to know a whole lot about it. I know that when Honda had a lot of problems with their tranny, they did extend the warranty to cover issues.

I hope that is the case! I will ask the dealer about that when we go there today. Our goal is to hit the Ody, Sienna, Caravan and T&C all in the same day to try to compare. Hopefully our 1 year old will be cooperative.

 

[elyrayday]

We leased an '03 Grand Caravan for 4.5 years and then bought an '08 Grand Caravan. At the time we purchased the '08, we test drove the Ody and Sienna as well. The Caravan was quieter, had great safety ratings, and came with all the bells and whistles for a much cheaper price. I loved our van... we ended up only keeping it for 1.5 years and then downsized to an '09 Escape (which I still have and adore). We only sold the van because we had finally been told we would not be able to have any more bio children and decided we really didn't need a van for just two kids... now we're adopting and I'm looking at getting another van, looking at the Caravan Crew version with second row heated seats. My oldest is passing the 5 step test in some vehicles and I know he'll appreciate those heated seats when he's fully out of a booster, I know I appreciate them in the front seat.

Congratulations on the adoption! Glad to know you liked the older Caravan. From everything I have read, these newer ones are a big step up too. The Crew is one we are thinking of too. Significantly cheaper than the Ody and comes with everything we could hope for (power everything, dvd, back up camera, remote start, etc for thousands less than a fairly bare bones Ody EX). It sounds awesome. Still a part of me really wants the extra LATCH and, especially, that 2nd row center seat that only the Ody offers.... Tough choices.

We are heading out to check them all out today.

 

[tl01]

Good luck! Something I would consider doing us driving a used one for each as well to see how they hold up. I know the T&C looks similar on the inside as the previous model. Let us know what you think!

 

[todzwife]

The T&C looks amazing but it's sub-par reliability record took it off our list before we even test drove one. My parents owned an 02 and it was in the shop more often than not. My friend owns a 09 and has had SO many problems with it, she's extremely frustrated.

I hope you find something you love. It's so hard when one vehicle doesn't meet ALL your needs/wants. Sometimes you have to compromise and get whatever is the closest.