what?! i cant tether my rf radian?

VanIsleMommy · May 9, 2012

You learn something every day. I know in my equinox rf tethering is not prohibited but is also not even addressed. So I made the parental decision to tether to the seat track with a d ring. I just found out this can affect air bag sensors. Now I had the tether not super tight but not loose (ie no slack but no tension either) because it made the seat over reclined if it was tight. Now I hear a loose tether is an error but a taut tether can load a seat with airbags like bracing. So confusing. Personally, my opinion is that a rf tether only comes into the crash equation after the crash, after the airbags have gone off. Thoughts?

QuassEE · May 9, 2012

There's not enough information to advise you on this. Because our test bench doesn't simulate a second row, there's no front seat to tether to. We just don't have enough information.

I do agree, however, that if you're strictly looking at rebound then the majority of the crash event has already occurred (including the airbag deployment)... If that factors into your decision making. The child restraint loading up the seatback during the initial event is more likely to confuse the sensors than the rear-facing tether, in my opinion. I just try to keep my opinion to myself because I don't think there's research to back up any position with actual facts. I suppose the lack of real world problems in Sweden might be our only evidence...

-Nicole.

ketchupqueen · May 9, 2012

A "loose" RF tether isn't an error... If you've removed the slack that's all you need to do for its desired function.

tam_shops · May 9, 2012

I've RF tethered on my passenger seat. I rarely have a passenger besides my dh. The odds of a passenger and accident are slim. My dh is a big guy, if it comes on full force, so be it b/c the odds of it increasing his damage are less than the odds of it increasing my youngest's damage.

Just my opinion, no research behind it...

If someone notes a flaw in my logic, please do let me know!?

tam

VanIsleMommy · May 10, 2012

I know this is a controversial issue due to the lack of evidence either way.. and that the official tech response is if your manuals allow it you have to make the decision yourself...I personally will probably continue to tether unless there is some drastic evidence telling me not to. I wish they would test this so we knew either way.

amyd · May 10, 2012

I personally don't feel comfortable tethering to a non-approved point. So I'll RF tether my Radian in the third row if there's not a FFing seat in front of it so I can use the second row TA. Otherwise I leave it untethered. I'm content in knowing that the seat meets the rebound standard.

mommycat · May 11, 2012

tam_shops said:
I've RF tethered on my passenger seat. I rarely have a passenger besides my dh. The odds of a passenger and accident are slim. My dh is a big guy, if it comes on full force, so be it b/c the odds of it increasing his damage are less than the odds of it increasing my youngest's damage.

Just my opinion, no research behind it...

If someone notes a flaw in my logic, please do let me know!?

tam

My only thought was that the RF tether may make the airbag under-deploy rather than deploy full-force when it doesn't need to.

I have no opinion about the validity of any arguments in this issue, though. I don't have enough information to really make a good assessment. Personally, I take the same position as Amy, and leave my RF-tethering seats untethered when RF in a vehicle with no appropriate, approved tether point.

tam_shops · May 11, 2012

Thanks Cat! Very good to know and interesting that it's the opposite problem than I'd ever have perceived. And, I'll keep it in mind for my next car, but I suspect by then we'll be done w/ RF anyway.

One question and I suspect it's old information and things have changed, as I remember the controversy when air bags first came out. Aren't they (or weren't they) designed for someone that is/was *not* wearing their seat belt? Thus, stronger than we need if we are wearing it?

I could always get my dh to sit in the back seat, then I don't have to worry about it at all and it's safer after all! LOL

tam

mommycat · May 12, 2012

Replying on iPod so briefly, lol.

I hadn't heard of the airbag vs seatbelts issue, it must have been before I started paying attention? I don't fully understand the whole thing I think. But from what I understand the sensors can check for either weight or seat position and are supposed to not deploy under a certain weight (for the weight sensitive ones). Potentially they only partially deploy at a lower weight or that's what I assumed. So if that is the case, the force of the tether pulling upwards might partially cancel out dh's weight. I might be way off but it may be a possibility. As I said, I just don't feel that I understand the situation enough to really make any valid judgement calls.

tam_shops · May 12, 2012

The opposing forces cancelling each other out certainly makes sense and I'd never thought about it. Will be sure to at least discuss it w/ my dh, he could always remove the tether when he's in the car...I suspect he's too lazy! LOL

tam

snowbird25ca · May 13, 2012

I'm too distracted to give a good descriptive answer, but there is a secondary issue that some vehicle manufacturers outright don't allow rf tethering.

Last I heard both Toyota and Dodge didn't want rf tethering done to their front seat tracks. Who knows if others will follow suit or not...

I won't do it unless there is an outright allowance in the vehicle manual. Older vehicles have risks of their own, newer vehicles are more likely to have problems from an airbag perspective.

Airbags make a bigger difference so far as fatality goes when an occupant is unrestrained. The reduction in fatality for a properly restrained passenger is only 5% but it's larger for unrestrained occupants. Perhaps that's what's being remembered?

Ninetales · May 13, 2012

All the car manuals I've looked through are adamant that the airbags and seatbelts are intended to work together, and you can be seriously injured by the airbag if you aren't wearing the seatbelt. I remember this same info being discussed in tech class. Maybe things have changed?

tiggercat · May 13, 2012

snowbird25ca said:
I'm too distracted to give a good descriptive answer, but there is a secondary issue that some vehicle manufacturers outright don't allow rf tethering.

Last I heard both Toyota and Dodge didn't want rf tethering done to their front seat tracks. Who knows if others will follow suit or not...

I won't do it unless there is an outright allowance in the vehicle manual. Older vehicles have risks of their own, newer vehicles are more likely to have problems from an airbag perspective.

Airbags make a bigger difference so far as fatality goes when an occupant is unrestrained. The reduction in fatality for a properly restrained passenger is only 5% but it's larger for unrestrained occupants. Perhaps that's what's being remembered?

Interesting. Toyota told me (several years ago) to go ahead and RF tether to the front passenger seat track in my 2003 Camry. Once i cleared up the FF vs RF tethering confusion, they didn't seem concerned. Dodge was confused by my inquiries but didn't outright say no. I wonder if it is a case who you talk to. Is there an official statement or contact on this?

Sent from my iPod touch using Car-Seat.Org

snowbird25ca · May 13, 2012

tiggercat said:
Interesting. Toyota told me (several years ago) to go ahead and RF tether to the front passenger seat track in my 2003 Camry. Once i cleared up the FF vs RF tethering confusion, they didn't seem concerned. Dodge was confused by my inquiries but didn't outright say no. I wonder if it is a case who you talk to. Is there an official statement or contact on this?

Sent from my iPod touch using Car-Seat.Org

Not yet, but I'm hoping to get one.

tiggercat · May 13, 2012

snowbird25ca said:
Not yet, but I'm hoping to get one.

I'd love to hear about it if/when you get one!

Sent from my iPod touch using Car-Seat.Org

tam_shops · May 13, 2012

Discussed the opposing forces idea w/ dh. He immediately pointed out the obvious that if we hit something (front of car that makes airbag go off), he would go forward at the same time YDS would go forward, then they'd go back at the same time. There would be no opposing force on the seat. The force going backwards on the seat wouldn't be apply until after the accident when the airbag had already gone off.

He's a great dad and safety conscience, prefers the added safety of YDS being tethered and keeping YDS's seat where it needs to be...

Interesting and great point about what the manuals say about airbags. Makes sense and huge liability, but more interesting about the % for fatality that Trudy.

And, I'm confused is Trudy getting a Toyota or a contact? LOL

tam

LISmama810 · May 13, 2012

A couple years back I spoke with a Toyota engineer who specializes in airbags. I explained rear tethering to him (he wasn't really familiar with the concept), and he said it PROBABLY wouldn't be a problem in Toyotas. He said the sensors in the seat track are there to detect how close the seat is to the airbag, but those sensors are in the front of the track, not the back. He could speak only for Toyota, and, like I said, it's not something he had specifically studied; just something he speculated on.

My personal feeling on it is that if there's any doubt, I won't rear tether. I feel the benefits an airbag provides to the front passenger are far greater than the benefits a tether provides a rear-facing child in the back seat. That kid is already SO protected, I'd rather give any extra protection I could to the front seat occupant.

moonmommy · May 13, 2012

I tether my Radian to my driver seat track instead of the passenger seat.

snowbird25ca · May 13, 2012

Ninetales said:
All the car manuals I've looked through are adamant that the airbags and seatbelts are intended to work together, and you can be seriously injured by the airbag if you aren't wearing the seatbelt. I remember this same info being discussed in tech class. Maybe things have changed?

They are most definitely designed to work together, but the difference with an airbag vs. without so far as fatality prevention goes is larger for unrestrained occupants than properly restrained occupants. (That is, an unrestrained occupant will be less likely to be killed in a vehicle with airbags than in a vehicle without airbags.)

An airbag is going to be less damaging than a dash, windshield, or other hard object if they flew out the front windshield....

I've remembered the statistic when I was told it because it surprised me that the benefit to a properly restrained passenger so far as life and death went was that small with an airbag vs. without.

mommycat · May 13, 2012

As I already said but feel the need to disclaim again, I am pretty much theorizing without any proof... But I thought the sensors act on info from just before the event that triggers the airbag and not at that moment? So any potential load from the tether (not crash load but pull from a non-slack tether) may have an effect. Though it is probably a small effect and probably not an issue, I agree with whoever said above that if there is a question about it I prefer to take the conservative option.

Also, and this is not airbag related, but while things move forward together in a crash, rebound is not guaranteed to occur in sync. Some things will rebound quicker than others, and some will move less or more in a particular direction. In the end this has little to do with your issue of rf tethering, so I guess I am just talking "out loud"...

Whatever works for your family in this case is probably the answer. It is an option on the seat, and anyone here would be making an informed, well-considered decision. :thumbsup:

what?! i cant tether my rf radian?

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