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  1. #1
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    Extended Harnessing...

    Is EH a thing of the past? I remember back in the day when so many people had Regents...everyone was "doing it"...ha ha. It seemed like there were quite a few 6, 7 and 8 year olds here that were harnessed full time. There was very little talk about boosters other than "that is way off in the future". The tide seems to have changed. What is new since the Regent craze? Better booster seats? Have I missed some new studies?

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  3. #2
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    Re: Extended Harnessing...

    Frontier80, Frontier85, Graco Nautilus. The Regent was discountinued this year, but the above are EH seats and boosters.

  4. #3
    Admin - CPST Instructor wendytthomas's Avatar
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    Re: Extended Harnessing...

    Quote Originally Posted by HEVY View Post
    Frontier80, Frontier85, Graco Nautilus. The Regent was discountinued this year, but the above are EH seats and boosters.
    I think she means new studies.

    I don't know when info started coming out of Sweden and Europe with their opinion that harnessing increased neck loads, so there is that to it, but there have never been data to say that a harness or booster past booster maturity is better than the other. I think it was more that, "OMG, the Regent is here, now I can harness my wiggly 6/7/8 year old or my heavy four year old," then of course KDM hit the scene and Regents flew off the shelf and incorrectly into hundreds of cars, and now that that's died down people are are the balance where there are options if you need to harness (like Piper who WAS too wiggly until 7, and in some states would have been too light), but for those who don't, a booster at five or six is fine.

    Wendy
    wendy, cpst-i mom to
    piper, 7/26/02, 62", 108#, seatbelt, driving her own car
    laine 9/16/09, 54", 96#, Nuna Aaces, Diono Solana 2
    in my husband's 2018 Toyota Land Cruiser, my 2017 Volvo XC90, and big sister's 2016 Honda Civic
    https://www.car-seat.org/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=1353&dateline=1552329  785

  5. #4
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    Re: Extended Harnessing...

    Oh, I know there are seats out there if you want to EH. Just doesn't seem as common...

    Wendy, I was wondering if KDM had anything to do with it. There were so many threads about KDM and Regents back then. Also, I had been seeing more anecdotal evidence from Sweden about neck loads. I guess my line of thinking was pretty much correct. Thanks for the input.

  6. #5
    CPS Technician SignCuer's Avatar
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    Re: Extended Harnessing...

    Not really as I look at it here...

    I still EH my kiddos depending on age and maturity... Weirdly most of them aren't ready for boosters until 8 or so... one kid has severe ADHD (which I don't believe in) and have to be harnessed in my Frontier85 and he's 8 1/2

  7. #6
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    Re: Extended Harnessing...

    What's KDM?
    Anna- Mommy to
    Hayden 3.5, 34 lbs, ERF in a XTSL
    Tristan 21mo, 25 lbs, RF in a pink! BLVD

  8. #7
    Admin - CPST Instructor wendytthomas's Avatar
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    Re: Extended Harnessing...

    Kyle David Miller. http://www.kyledavidmiller.org/ After his video came out, there was a run on Regents. The video encouraged using LATCH and tether to the 80 pounds of the Regent, and harnessing your children forever. They revised their video, I believe, became CPSTs, and started a program whereby needy families could receive extended harnessing seats for free or low cost.

    Wendy
    wendy, cpst-i mom to
    piper, 7/26/02, 62", 108#, seatbelt, driving her own car
    laine 9/16/09, 54", 96#, Nuna Aaces, Diono Solana 2
    in my husband's 2018 Toyota Land Cruiser, my 2017 Volvo XC90, and big sister's 2016 Honda Civic
    https://www.car-seat.org/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=1353&dateline=1552329  785

  9. #8
    Senior Community Member natysr's Avatar
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    Re: Extended Harnessing...

    Jordan is 6 years old. We have a booster seat in one car, a harness seat in the other, and a spare harness seat in the garage.

    He does well in the booster to/from school and the grocery store etc. On longer trips, we put him in a harnessed seat. He will never "learn" to sit correctly in the booster all the time, if he's not been given a chance to practice.

    Quote Originally Posted by faithfulorangekids View Post
    Not really as I look at it here...

    I still EH my kiddos depending on age and maturity... Weirdly most of them aren't ready for boosters until 8 or so... one kid has severe ADHD (which I don't believe in) and have to be harnessed in my Frontier85 and he's 8 1/2
    Despite what you personally believe in or not, it has been scientifically proven that ADHD does in fact exist. You can "see" it in brain scans. It is as real of a neurological condition as bi-polar disorder, autism, epilepsy, etc.


  10. #9
    CPS Fanatic Morganthe's Avatar
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    Re: Extended Harnessing...

    Quote Originally Posted by faithfulorangekids View Post
    one kid has severe ADHD (which I don't believe in) and have to be harnessed in my Frontier85 and he's 8 1/2
    If you don't believe in it, how can you say he has severe ADHD?
    On second thought, never mind the question.


    ADD/ADHD is not like Santa Claus. The disorder exists regardless of if you believe or not.

    Recent, up to date short article with factlinks from NYTimes.

    Untangling the Myths about Attention Disorder

    Imaging studies of people with attention deficits have shown a consistent pattern of below-normal activity in the brain’s frontal lobes, where so-called executive function resides.
    And scientists are focusing on the pathways for dopamine and similar neurotransmitters active in the circuits that pass information to and from the frontal lobes.
    My 7 year old dd is content riding in her Regent that we've had since she was 3.5 years old. It's what we have. But she's also okay with her Monterey booster. Not as comfy for long distance drives though because she has to remember to sit properly.
    My Munchkin -- Nov 2008--5 years, 45.5", 42lbs
    Current Stats: 12 years old /5'5/ 115lbs/ Seatbelt

    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." Phillip K. Dick

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  12. #10
    CPS Technician CrunchyMaineMama's Avatar
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    Re: Extended Harnessing...

    Around here age 6-8 IS EH. Mostly kids hit 4 and they are into boosters (sometimes backless) If they even make it that long.
    Rachel-CPST & Mom to 4 Now!
    J-7 Recaro Performance/Nauti, A-4.5 Frontier 85/Nauti, O-3.5 RFing Size4Me/RXT and M-3.5, RFing Size4Me/RXT

  13. #11
    Carseat Crankypants carseatcoach's Avatar
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    Re: Extended Harnessing...

    I think age 8 is "extended" harnessing pretty much everywhere. I consider "extended" harnessing to be harnessing past the point where a child can use a booster safely -- and almost all developmentally typical kids reach that by age 8.

    I think KDM was responsible for the rush to extended harnessing, and I think that in the past few years most people have started calming down and looking at things rationally instead of emotionally (a physically and developmentally typical 7yo in a properly used booster is very different from the KDM tragedy) and realizing that correctly used boosters are not scary deathtraps.
    CPST and Mama to a 13yo girl, 5-stepped at age 10 and 5'

    Posted from my toaster using a PopTart

  14. #12
    Admin - CPS Technician joolsplus3's Avatar
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    Re: Extended Harnessing...

    When you guys mention the studies/anecdotal evidence from Sweden, do you mean Adventuredad claiming there are studies? He's never been able to produce one in English, has anyone else? Where are the concomitant rise in neck injuries to kids harnessed in HWH seats, which have been on the market for 10 years now?
    I notice that things are taken as the truth sometimes, but really it's just another bandwagon (boostering at 4 is 'just as safe' as harnessing was till 10 a few years ago, and it has nothing to do with studies or data, it's just how the board swings ).

    I think things have just moderated, though. HWH seats were rare and exciting, now they are run of the mill and even most convertible seats keep kids harnessed till 4 or longer (unlike the olden days, where Roundabout or Touriva or Accel were the big players, and barely lasted kids till 3...and you had one choice for big growth, the Husky or Regent...no Nautilus, no Maestro, no Frontier, no ProSport...)
    Julie
    CPST since 2003, pu"R"ple since 2008, three kids growing too fast since 1997, 1999 and 2006

    Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good


  15. #13
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    Re: Extended Harnessing...

    Quote Originally Posted by wendytthomas View Post
    The video encouraged using LATCH and tether to the 80 pounds of the Regent, and harnessing your children forever.
    The bolded made me LOL. It did feel a bit overzealous. Also, their encouragement of using LATCH past the limits was very scary. I am glad to hear that the foundation has toned it down.

    Quote Originally Posted by joolsplus3 View Post
    When you guys mention the studies/anecdotal evidence from Sweden, do you mean Adventuredad claiming there are studies? He's never been able to produce one in English, has anyone else? Where are the concomitant rise in neck injuries to kids harnessed in HWH seats, which have been on the market for 10 years now?
    I notice that things are taken as the truth sometimes, but really it's just another bandwagon (boostering at 4 is 'just as safe' as harnessing was till 10 a few years ago, and it has nothing to do with studies or data, it's just how the board swings ).
    Very interesting post Jools. You seem to be saying that although there has been a lot of negativity against EH, there is actually nothing to back it up. There is no evidence at all that EH increases neck loads. There is also no evidence to show that boostering is just as safe as EH. Did I understand that correctly?

    Way back when, everyone used the saying "every step up in as far as seat usage is a step down in safety". That no longer seems to be the phrase of choice. The old reasoning used to be RFing is safer than FFing, FFing in a harness is safer than a booster, a booster is safer than an adult belt. However, the bolded seems to be a major point of debate on the board right now.

    To the bolded from your post Jools, that was my guess at the very beginning. The move back towards boostering (of course based on maturity) seems to be just another swing. Who knows what the tone will be a couple years from now.

    So, the take home message is that we really have no idea, right? Hmm, how to make a parental decision based on that?

    ETA: Hmm, I never thought about extending harnessing starting at age eight. I was thinking around age 5 or 6. I feel a new thread coming on...ha ha.

  16. #14
    Admin - CPST Instructor wendytthomas's Avatar
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    Re: Extended Harnessing...

    Quote Originally Posted by cso1997 View Post
    Way back when, everyone used the saying "every step up in as far as seat usage is a step down in safety". That no longer seems to be the phrase of choice. The old reasoning used to be RFing is safer than FFing, FFing in a harness is safer than a booster, a booster is safer than an adult belt. However, the bolded seems to be a major point of debate on the board right now.
    For the general population, this is still the case. They're ready to booster at three, in which case it is less safe. But for people here, you're right, it's not as much of the case. For those of us harnessing to six or beyond, it's not a step down.

    Wendy
    wendy, cpst-i mom to
    piper, 7/26/02, 62", 108#, seatbelt, driving her own car
    laine 9/16/09, 54", 96#, Nuna Aaces, Diono Solana 2
    in my husband's 2018 Toyota Land Cruiser, my 2017 Volvo XC90, and big sister's 2016 Honda Civic
    https://www.car-seat.org/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=1353&dateline=1552329  785


  17. #15
    Senior Community Member Jennifer mom to my 7's Avatar
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    Re: Extended Harnessing...

    Quote Originally Posted by wendytthomas View Post
    For the general population, this is still the case. They're ready to booster at three, in which case it is less safe. But for people here, you're right, it's not as much of the case. For those of us harnessing to six or beyond, it's not a step down.

    Wendy
    Yes, and back when people started saying that harnessing was safer than a booster, the only extended harnessing seats were britax 65 pound seats, the regent, and the apex I think. Oh, and the radian had just come out. I am going back to September 2005 or so, when my then 3.5 year old was 42 pounds, 42 inches, and outgrowing her marathon by harness height. And advocates were still trying (and are still trying) to get people to understand that the cosco 3 in 1 seats will NOT be the last seat they ever need, and that they do NOT harness to 80 or 100 pounds. Wanted to add that back then we also were trying to keep 3 and 4 year under 40 pound toddlers harnessed, not 50+ pound 5 and 6 year olds that were sitting well in boosters. It was then that I learned of extended rear facing, too

    Shortly after that, I think evenflo released the triumph advance. Then, we got the nautilus! I bought one of the first released ones, I think, in January of 2008.
    Whatever Wendy said

    "No one else will ever know the strength of my love for you, after all, you're the only one who knows what my heart sounds like from the inside." -Unknown

  18. #16
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    Re: Extended Harnessing...

    Wendy, are you saying that age 6 is about the time that boostering is about equal to harnessing (outside of special needs of course)? So, before 6 a harness is probably better? But for 6 and older, either one is fine? At what point (if ever), do you feel that harnessing is actually LESS safe than using a booster?

  19. #17
    Senior Community Member Jennifer mom to my 7's Avatar
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    Re: Extended Harnessing...

    Quote Originally Posted by cso1997 View Post
    Wendy, are you saying that age 6 is about the time that boostering is about equal to harnessing (outside of special needs of course)? So, before 6 a harness is probably better? But for 6 and older, either one is fine? At what point (if ever), do you feel that harnessing is actually LESS safe than using a booster?
    I think a lot of advocates have a sliding scale, so to speak. Except in Canada, where the child has to be 40 pounds to be in a booster. I think most here would also like to see kids at least 40 pounds, too.

    But, many will also say, well 4 and 40 is the minimum, most would want a 5 year old to be at least 40 pounds, a 6 year old at least 35 pounds, and a 7 year old at least 30-35 pounds (there are some small 7 year olds out there)
    Whatever Wendy said

    "No one else will ever know the strength of my love for you, after all, you're the only one who knows what my heart sounds like from the inside." -Unknown

  20. #18
    Carseat Crankypants carseatcoach's Avatar
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    Re: Extended Harnessing...

    Quote Originally Posted by cso1997 View Post
    You seem to be saying that although there has been a lot of negativity against EH, there is actually nothing to back it up. There is no evidence at all that EH increases neck loads. There is also no evidence to show that boostering is just as safe as EH. Did I understand that correctly?
    There's no evidence either way.

    I don't see a lot of negativity towards extended harnessing and parents who choose that for their children. I do see -- and agree with -- negativity towards the idea that a booster is an unsafe choice for a 6+yo child who can use it properly.

    Extended harnessing? Fine. Proper booster use? Also fine. Claiming one is "less safe" without actual evidence? Not so fine, IMO.
    CPST and Mama to a 13yo girl, 5-stepped at age 10 and 5'

    Posted from my toaster using a PopTart


  21. #19
    CPST and ketchup snob ketchupqueen's Avatar
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    Re: Extended Harnessing...

    Quote Originally Posted by cso1997 View Post
    Very interesting post Jools. You seem to be saying that although there has been a lot of negativity against EH, there is actually nothing to back it up. There is no evidence at all that EH increases neck loads. There is also no evidence to show that boostering is just as safe as EH. Did I understand that correctly?
    That's true. The inverse is also true. There's no evidence to show that EH does NOT increase neck loads. There's no evidence to show that boostering is NOT just as safe as EH. And there are scientifically credible untested theories on each side.

    Since there's not really any comparative evidence either way, all we really know is that either one, when done properly, is a safe choice. (In fact, my personal, unscientific "gut feeling" is that, for a child who rides properly in either a tethered FF seat or a booster after age 6-7, any safety difference there is is so small as to be pretty much negligible.)

    I feel you get to a point where boostering is safe enough that the convenience and comfort of the child outweighs any safety benefit there might be. Same as around 4, I'm okay with forward-facing even kids that could easily rear-face 3 more years, because at some point the convenience and social aspects come into play, or I'm ok with a backless booster for a 10 year old even if they are small and would easily still fit a high-back (as long as the fit of the belt is good with one.) The studies we DO have right now show that the most significant gap in safety in American children riding in cars, more than 1 year olds FF, more than 4 year old 28 lb. children in boosters, is children who are not in boosters and should be. I'm honestly thrilled to see a 7-10 year old riding properly in anything, harness, high-back, backless-- because I know they're safer than the majority of children their ages in America.

    ETA: and I took so long to write that that I cross-posted. Oops. LOL.
    CPST and Mom to Emma, 15, Bridget, 13, Maggie, 11, Katie Sue, 6, Jimmy, born May 2019,
    and Becky, waiting for us as part of our eternal family.
    Our '02 Odyssey, car seats, and seatbelts saved our lives. Now riding in a '13 Odyssey!

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  23. #20
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    Re: Extended Harnessing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer mom to my 7 View Post
    But, many will also say, well 4 and 40 is the minimum, most would want a 5 year old to be at least 40 pounds, a 6 year old at least 35 pounds, and a 7 year old at least 30-35 pounds (there are some small 7 year olds out there)
    I was actually thinking about weight/age and booster usage...ha ha. I was wondering what factors would lead someone to recommend a booster seat. Is age or weight more important? Or neither? Is it totally based on whether your child can sit correctly all of the time?

    Quote Originally Posted by ketchupqueen View Post
    I'm honestly thrilled to see a 7-10 year old riding properly in anything, harness, high-back, backless-- because I know they're safer than the majority of children their ages in America.
    Very, very true!!

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