new ff minimum?

[amelia222]

I've seen it mentioned on a few threads here about a 22lb ff minimum on new seats in Canada. Where can I find more info on this? Will th laws change too?

Because I doubt the average parent will wait until 22lb when the law says 20, unfortunately. I've had this argument with a few people at seat checks with seats that have a 22lb ff minimum and have them turned at or before 20lb. Its not uncommon to see kids here ff under 20lb and/or under 1 year.

 

[mapsgirl]

This isn't new. At least 2 of the seats we have both say 22 lbs for forward facing. Yes, the law says "at least 20lbs" but you still have to follow the manufacturer.

As a car seat tech, it is my responsiblity to explain to parents what is safest for their child. Yes, it is difficult sometimes, but if they took the time to come to get their seat checked, I'd hope that they'd want was is best for their child.

Just wait until the new Britax seats come out... I've heard that they have a minimum age of 2 years. Which is fantastic!

 

[featherhead]

The law is actually changing, I'm not quite sure when it comes into effect. I took the CRST course in May, and they were already teaching the new law (22 lbs, 1 year old, walking unassisted).

 

[featherhead]

This isn't new. At least 2 of the seats we have both say 22 lbs for forward facing. Yes, the law says "at least 20lbs" but you still have to follow the manufacturer.

As a car seat tech, it is my responsiblity to explain to parents what is safest for their child. Yes, it is difficult sometimes, but if they took the time to come to get their seat checked, I'd hope that they'd want was is best for their child.

Just wait until the new Britax seats come out... I've heard that they have a minimum age of 2 years. Which is fantastic!

Are you sure about the new Britax seats? I hadn't heard that yet. I know the FrontierXT has a 2 year minimum, but I didn't think the convertibles did.

 

[Shanora]

The law in NS is 22 pounds for forward facing. The only province/territory with that minimum limit for forward facing!!

 

[selinajean]

My understanding is that the requirements will be changing as of January 2011 with TC making it mandatory for FF harnessed seats to have that new requirement. (22lbs, 1yr, walking unassisted) *Wondering if this will be for new seats only or retroactive? Will seats on the shelves be included? What about ones already purchased?

I don't know if laws will change though as those are provincial and seem to have a lack of consistency across the country as it is.

Hopefully Trudy or Nicole or someone else who knows for sure will pop in. I am just going off of what I remember reading but am not positive on the details.

 

[hipmaman]

as far as I know, the seats as of Jan 2011 would have min. allowable ff weight of 22 lbs. But traffic/passenger safety laws are provincial and not under the same change that we are talking about. Some province might still have 20 lbs and might change to 22 lbs, etc. But if there is a 'proper use' law in any province, then the laws applied that the carseat must be used properly and that means to the carseat manufacturer's specified limits and instructions.

 

[TechnoGranola]

This isn't new. At least 2 of the seats we have both say 22 lbs for forward facing. Yes, the law says "at least 20lbs" but you still have to follow the manufacturer.

The OP is talking about the new Transport Canada regulations which *are* different from the previous ones.

Just wait until the new Britax seats come out... I've heard that they have a minimum age of 2 years. Which is fantastic!

There's a thread here discussing the new manuals for the Canadian Britax seats and there is nothing about age 2 for a minimum for FF in the manuals at this point. In fact, the manuals still say at least 1 year and 20# instead of being ready for the new regulations. So, in a few months, Britax is going to have to have all new manuals for Canada, for the seats that have only been sold for a few months. How confusing for parents.

ETA: here's the thread with the discussion of the new manuals http://www.car-seat.org/showthread.php?t=139260

 

[amelia222]

The law is actually changing, I'm not quite sure when it comes into effect. I took the CRST course in May, and they were already teaching the new law (22 lbs, 1 year old, walking unassisted).

Wow! when I took my course in June I asked about the requirement in some manuals and we were told they were just recomendations and to follow the laws.

The law in NS is 22 pounds for forward facing. The only province/territory with that minimum limit for forward facing!!

woohoo! Go NS!!!

 

[mapsgirl]

Are you sure about the new Britax seats? I hadn't heard that yet. I know the FrontierXT has a 2 year minimum, but I didn't think the convertibles did.

Sorry. Should have been more specific. That is the seat that I was talking about.

It's too bad they couldn't carry age 2 requirement that through all of the seats.

 

[snowbird25ca]

My understanding is that the requirements will be changing as of January 2011 with TC making it mandatory for FF harnessed seats to have that new requirement. (22lbs, 1yr, walking unassisted) *Wondering if this will be for new seats only or retroactive? Will seats on the shelves be included? What about ones already purchased?

I don't know if laws will change though as those are provincial and seem to have a lack of consistency across the country as it is.

Hopefully Trudy or Nicole or someone else who knows for sure will pop in. I am just going off of what I remember reading but am not positive on the details.

The new standards are in effect now but manufacturers have until Jan 2011 to comply. Seats currently on the shelf will not be included, it will simply be that as of Jan 1st 2011, any seat which is imported in to Canada must comply with new standards.

The new requirements are 22lbs and walking unassisted. 1 yr has never been part of CMVSS 213, but almost all manufacturers have it as a requirement in order to use the seat ff'ing. The only exception I have seen in the last number of years are some of the Radian XT seats (not the 2010,) and the Graco Comfort Sport didn't have the 1yr minimum last time I read the manual for it.

as far as I know, the seats as of Jan 2011 would have min. allowable ff weight of 22 lbs. But traffic/passenger safety laws are provincial and not under the same change that we are talking about. Some province might still have 20 lbs and might change to 22 lbs, etc. But if there is a 'proper use' law in any province, then the laws applied that the carseat must be used properly and that means to the carseat manufacturer's specified limits and instructions.

All provinces technically have proper use laws in that parents are required to use a seat which meets CMVSS 213 standards. Some provinces go beyond that with stating weights etc for different stages, but not all provinces do. Alberta actually doesn't technically have a 20lb minimum to ff law - we simply have the requirement that a seat appropriate for a child's size be used with any child under 6yrs or 40lbs. (And that it be a CMVSS 213 or 213.1 certified seat - this is where proper use comes from.)

Wow! when I took my course in June I asked about the requirement in some manuals and we were told they were just recomendations and to follow the laws.

Who did you take your course through? Parents must follow both the law and the requirement of the manuals. If one says 20lbs and one says 22lbs, then the child cannot legally ff before 22lbs. Above and beyond the legality of it, a technician can never tell a parent that the manuals minimum requirements are just a recommendation. I wonder how your instructor would explain the big warnings to NEVER ff a child under 1yr old?

I'm sorry to say this, but I'd take the time to go through your student manual in detail to make sure that there weren't other significant errors in what you were taught. I have difficulty believing that any instructor who tells you that the manual is simply a recommendation could possibly be fully competent, and wouldn't be surprised if you were misled in other areas.

 

[featherhead]

The new requirements are 22lbs and walking unassisted. 1 yr has never been part of CMVSS 213, but almost all manufacturers have it as a requirement in order to use the seat ff'ing. The only exception I have seen in the last number of years are some of the Radian XT seats (not the 2010,) and the Graco Comfort Sport didn't have the 1yr minimum last time I read the manual for it.(

Hmm, I wonder where the 1 year thing comes from. Our instructor drilled it into our heads... 1 year, 22 lbs, and walking. I don't see it in our student manual, or the MPI carseat brochure.

 

[amelia222]

All provinces technically have proper use laws in that parents are required to use a seat which meets CMVSS 213 standards. Some provinces go beyond that with stating weights etc for different stages, but not all provinces do. Alberta actually doesn't technically have a 20lb minimum to ff law - we simply have the requirement that a seat appropriate for a child's size be used with any child under 6yrs or 40lbs. (And that it be a CMVSS 213 or 213.1 certified seat - this is where proper use comes from.)





Who did you take your course through? Parents must follow both the law and the requirement of the manuals. If one says 20lbs and one says 22lbs, then the child cannot legally ff before 22lbs. Above and beyond the legality of it, a technician can never tell a parent that the manuals minimum requirements are just a recommendation. I wonder how your instructor would explain the big warnings to NEVER ff a child under 1yr old?

I'm sorry to say this, but I'd take the time to go through your student manual in detail to make sure that there weren't other significant errors in what you were taught. I have difficulty believing that any instructor who tells you that the manual is simply a recommendation could possibly be fully competent, and wouldn't be surprised if you were misled in other areas.

I think it was more that the new-ish BC law only states 20lb and 1 year, whereas before that there was only proper use. I think the issue was that most of the class had absolutely no clue about carseats and there was only so much she could teach in 8 hours without confusing them. So she stuck to the 20 lb, 1 year rules rather than the specifics of each seat.

 

[hipmaman]

Hmm, I wonder where the 1 year thing comes from. Our instructor drilled it into our heads... 1 year, 22 lbs, and walking. I don't see it in our student manual, or the MPI carseat brochure.

I think the 1 yr came from the K. Webber study of why rf was safer and at about the 1 yr old mark the rate of injuries/mortalities dropped significantly. It was at the time when babies were ff at 6 mos old and seats were rf only up to 20/22 lbs. So the 'mantra' used at the time was 20 lbs AND 1 yr old was what used by many as the yard stick for extended rf. The 'mantra' stuck and has not been unstuck in many places. 20 lbs and 1 yr old was extended rf in the late 90s Was not so in Canada until 2000-2001 with rf limit for seats went beyond 20/22 lbs.

 

[hipmaman]

I think it was more that the new-ish BC law only states 20lb and 1 year, whereas before that there was only proper use. I think the issue was that most of the class had absolutely no clue about carseats and there was only so much she could teach in 8 hours without confusing them. So she stuck to the 20 lb, 1 year rules rather than the specifics of each seat.

But it's just as easy to teach that we always have to refer to the CRS manuals, kwim?

 

[sparkyd]

Hmm, I wonder where the 1 year thing comes from. Our instructor drilled it into our heads... 1 year, 22 lbs, and walking. I don't see it in our student manual, or the MPI carseat brochure.

Could just be an efficiency thing depending on the make-up of your class. I cheat a little talking to parents by saying that the law is 1 year, 22 lbs, walking unassisted and unless I'm questioned I never get into specifics like that it's the seat not the law that says 1 year or that technically the law is federal and may not actually apply where we are etc. etc. You would think they would explain it in a class, but maybe the instructor has had problems with people getting mixed up or something and just wanted to stick to a basic message that people would give to parents.

I think it was more that the new-ish BC law only states 20lb and 1 year, whereas before that there was only proper use. I think the issue was that most of the class had absolutely no clue about carseats and there was only so much she could teach in 8 hours without confusing them. So she stuck to the 20 lb, 1 year rules rather than the specifics of each seat.

But how hard is it to teach people to read the sticker on the seat? That is unacceptable. A lot of techs don't take the time to make sure they've got their information straight as it is. All instructors should emphasize to new (and experienced) techs that they should always take a minute to take a close look at each seat they see and that they should not hesitate to check the manual if they need to. Some techs think if they read the manual the parents will think they don't know what they are doing - that mindset needs to go out the window in courses. I've seen parents look very uncomfortable watching a tech do something that they think isn't right. I even once heard a parent say "let's just start over and use the manual". It shouldn't be the parent making that suggestion. :twocents:

 

[snowbird25ca]

Could just be an efficiency thing depending on the make-up of your class. I cheat a little talking to parents by saying that the law is 1 year, 22 lbs, walking unassisted and unless I'm questioned I never get into specifics like that it's the seat not the law that says 1 year or that technically the law is federal and may not actually apply where we are etc. etc. You would think they would explain it in a class, but maybe the instructor has had problems with people getting mixed up or something and just wanted to stick to a basic message that people would give to parents.

I'm going to get kind of technical on here, just because while it's a very slight difference, it's important to know just in case a parent does decide to get in to the technicalities with you. :thumbsup:

There are no federal laws on how a child is transported. Traffic laws are set by the provinces, and basically the only role that the federal government has is to tell provincial governments that they have to have a law applicable to something. Even then, I'm not super clear on the technicalities of the feedback loop that exists.

What is controlled federally, is CMVSS 213, and that all seats must meet CMVSS 213 standards. The standards are a minimum that manufacturers must comply with - and they divide restraints in to types of restraints. The infant restraint part of the standards is CMVSS 213.1, while the child restraint part of the standards is CMVSS 213. In simple terms, the child restraint part of the standards is what determines the standards a ff'ing restraint has to comply with.

Infant = CMVSS 213.1 = always rear-facing
Child = CMVSS 213 and does not become applicable until the child is 22lbs and walking unassisted.

A rear-facing mode can be certified to both 213.1 and 213 (dependent on the weight limits the manufacturer has set, they may need to use 213 even in the case of an infant only seat,) but the forward facing mode of usage can only comply with 213.

The new standard changes the definition of a child so that it is 22 to 65lbs, and walking unassisted. It is the change in definition of a child that results in ff'ing minimum limits becoming 22lbs, and walking unassisted becoming a new requirement.

Clear as mud, right? It's not something I would try and explain in detail to a parent - but the take home point is to be cautious with saying federal law because there is no federal law on carseat usage.

But every province does require that a child be restrained in a seat appropriate for their age and size and that meets CMVSS 213 standards. There are variations in how they further define the method of restraint, but since a seat doesn't meet CMVSS 213 standards if it's being used prematurely ff'ing - and even against manufacturers instructions the same can be said, it means every province has a proper use law by default.

(If there is any confusion over my explanation of the CMVSS 213 and 213.1, please ask - I'll email Barb for clarification. She knows the standard inside-out and I'm sure would be able to clarify anything that needs to be said differently. :thumbsup: )

I think it was more that the new-ish BC law only states 20lb and 1 year, whereas before that there was only proper use. I think the issue was that most of the class had absolutely no clue about carseats and there was only so much she could teach in 8 hours without confusing them. So she stuck to the 20 lb, 1 year rules rather than the specifics of each seat.

Yes, 8 hours is just not a very long time period to give somebody the basics on carseats, especially not in the belief that they'll then be able to give parents full support. Who ran the course that you took?

 

[QuassEE]

Yes, 8 hours is just not a very long time period to give somebody the basics on carseats, especially not in the belief that they'll then be able to give parents full support. Who ran the course that you took?

That's how long the BC course is. The beginning portion is homestudy, but how many people are motivated to actually complete that beforehand? Who knows. Is it any wonder that we have so many people wanting to "upgrade" from the BC cert to the national one?

-Nicole.

 

[amelia222]

Thanks for all the info Trudy! I've always wondered what the CMVSS numbers were. All we were taught was that they have to have the canadian sticker with the mumbers on it. But there's really only so much you can get into in 8 hours.

It was the BC course, run by the TSF. It is a good course to get the info out there, but most people taking it sent by their employers (almost all of the class was from BCAA or community policing) and have start from bare bones basics.

 

[Chila88]

So hypothetically....after Jan 2011....if I have a 15 month old child who is only 20lbs, and I am ff her in a carseat manufactured prior to these changes (ie my manual says the min for ff is 20lbs) then am I legally able to ff her? Basically I guess does this new definition apply to all existing seats on the road? Or only those manufactured after Jan 2011?