What to do if your accelerator gets stuck. PSA

[MomE]

Of course it is. And, it will go far beyond realistic levels because of human psychology. Now, everyone who puts a foot on the wrong pedal will be creating bad publicity and blaming it on faulty accelerators. People will pile on because they have heard about the problems and assume their cars are faulty, too, even if they are not. It's actually too bad. Toyota employs a lot of people in the USA and has sponsored some nice CPS intiatives. When GM drove itself into the dumpster, the first thing to go was support for Safe Kids USA. You can pretty much be sure what will happen soon at Toyota.

I think it's better for the lives of all people on the road that Toyota ensure ALL their cars are working, regardless of human psychology. And perhaps as such an upstanding corporation, Toyota should have thought about that before covering these issues up and persuading government agencies to cover it up and doing every thing it can do lie and deny everything to the public. Admit the error, fix the problem, everyone moves on. Don't blame people for wanting to be safe. Toyota has messed up and messed up big time in this mess. They should be held accountable.

 

[Guest]

But let me spin this scenario for you.... I pull up to my daugther's daycare, parking nose first into the parking spot. There is a sidewalk...maybe three feet wide. Then there's a metal fence. The kids all stand up against the fence, waiting for their parents to arrive, hanging onto the bars. If my car were to accelerate suddenly there wouldn't be time for me to react. Period. I'd be into that fence in a fraction of a second. Same scenario for my underground parking space with is up against a stone wall. Not even three feet away.

From what I understand, the 2nd case had 100-150 ft. I did an experiment with my car last night. Popping into neutral totally would have helped. I drive with my hand on the shifter, like it is a manual. Very simple for me to pop into neutral. Also, I know how to drive a stick, so in the back of my mind, what gear I'm in and stuff like that is kind of on autopilot so I know that popping into neutral is an option. For most American drivers, who only know automatics, neutral is a very foreign concept to them.

 

[Guest]

I think it's better for the lives of all people on the road that Toyota ensure ALL their cars are working, regardless of human psychology. And perhaps as such an upstanding corporation, Toyota should have thought about that before covering these issues up and persuading government agencies to cover it up and doing every thing it can do lie and deny everything to the public. Admit the error, fix the problem, everyone moves on. Don't blame people for wanting to be safe. Toyota has messed up and messed up big time in this mess. They should be held accountable.

I doubt they know the full cause of the problem. If you've seen enough lawsuits and stuff, or simply are in the retail business, you'll also realize that there are tons of people who either lie or exaggerate problems. If it's a small issue, it's not worth the negative rep to make a big announcement over a problem rather than trying to sweep it under the rug.

Everyone makes mistakes. Even those with stellar reps. If you've got a stellar rep, it makes sense to sweep minor problems under the rug. Typically, by the time you've done everything needed to sweep problem cases under the rug, your engineering dept has figured out the fix and you can quietly make changes to keep the problems from getting any bigger.

That's what Toyota did. Unfortunately for them, they never figured out what the real problem was. So, standard operating procedure has just turned into a huge nightmare for them. At this point, we're in pretty uncharted territory. I'm sure there are cars with legitimate problems. However, everyone is gonna assume it's the car's fault when they crash when it could actually be driver error. False positives like that just makes things more difficult in figuring out the true problem.

 

[MomE]

From what I understand, the 2nd case had 100-150 ft. I did an experiment with my car last night. Popping into neutral totally would have helped. I drive with my hand on the shifter, like it is a manual. Very simple for me to pop into neutral. Also, I know how to drive a stick, so in the back of my mind, what gear I'm in and stuff like that is kind of on autopilot so I know that popping into neutral is an option. For most American drivers, who only know automatics, neutral is a very foreign concept to them.

For the first 15 year of my driving life, I drove a stick too. So I keep my hand on the shifter out of habit. Automatics are kinda foreign to me, in that because I don't have to think about shifting, I just, well, don't! But keeping my hand on the shifter is still not going to help me if my car lurches into the (I should have said) cement wall in front of my parking spot. I won't have time to react.

100-150 feet...are you talking about the Prius or the two RAVs from yesterday? I saw the picture of the RAV from yesterday. Definitely not 100-150 feet. 20 maybe at the most. It's clear from the picture. And 100-150 feet could be covered in a matter of seconds. Some people don't even have reactionn times that quick under regular driving circumstances, let alone an unexpected one.

 

[MomE]

I doubt they know the full cause of the problem. If you've seen enough lawsuits and stuff, or simply are in the retail business, you'll also realize that there are tons of people who either lie or exaggerate problems. If it's a small issue, it's not worth the negative rep to make a big announcement over a problem rather than trying to sweep it under the rug.

Everyone makes mistakes. Even those with stellar reps. If you've got a stellar rep, it makes sense to sweep minor problems under the rug. Typically, by the time you've done everything needed to sweep problem cases under the rug, your engineering dept has figured out the fix and you can quietly make changes to keep the problems from getting any bigger.

That's what Toyota did. Unfortunately for them, they never figured out what the real problem was. So, standard operating procedure has just turned into a huge nightmare for them. At this point, we're in pretty uncharted territory. I'm sure there are cars with legitimate problems. However, everyone is gonna assume it's the car's fault when they crash when it could actually be driver error. False positives like that just makes things more difficult in figuring out the true problem.

You know, under certain recall conditions, I agree with what you are saying. I found the drop side crib recalls stupid. Most of those cases came from parents who didn't install the crib correctly or inspect it or use it correctly. My daughter had a drop side and it came lose once. But I always checked to make sure it was in good order EVERY TIME I put her in it. I think recalling things because someone uses it wrong is insane! Now I feel that way about warning labels on slings. I think it's going to make people shy away from slings, when if they just have some common sense slings are great for bonding with your child....

But we aren't talking about minor issues here or even common sense. The CAUSE of the issue with the Toyotas are not user error. There is something wrong with the car and it has caused people to die.

I also think Toyota has a negative rep for the way it handled the problem from the beginning. I'd have no issue with cars being recalled if there weren't just one lie and cover up after another. Just say there's a problem, figure it out, and fix it. Heck! Before I drove my Toyota I drove a Volkswagen. I understand the hassle of recalls, but I'd rather be alive than lied to and dead.

 

[TechnoGranola]

I am Googling and trying to find the recent Rav4 crashes and am just coming up with a Rav4 accident from 15 months ago. Do you happen to have a link to the recent accidents?

 

[Guest]

I also think Toyota has a negative rep for the way it handled the problem from the beginning. I'd have no issue with cars being recalled if there weren't just one lie and cover up after another. Just say there's a problem, figure it out, and fix it. Heck! Before I drove my Toyota I drove a Volkswagen. I understand the hassle of recalls, but I'd rather be alive than lied to and dead.

That's the problem. Most of the time, the manufacturer slaps some fix together and that generally takes care of the problem. This particular problem is weird enough that the normal course of action didn't work, so now it's just spiraling out of control.

There are lots of recalls where the fix is sorta iffy. Generally, they don't cause many problems, so no one ever pays attention. In this case, you've got an iffy fix that's just not sticking. Thus the big problem.

Plus, it's a problem that's just tailor made for user error to blame the vehicle instead. That totally screws up investigators trying to pin down the cause.

 

[MomE]

I am Googling and trying to find the recent Rav4 crashes and am just coming up with a Rav4 accident from 15 months ago. Do you happen to have a link to the recent accidents?

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news...RAV4-Accelerated-Out-of-Control-87284377.html

Click on the picture of the RAV up against the wall. You'll see the parking space and the distance. The RAV is about 15 feet long when it's not all smashed up. Then there's the small bit of dirt with the parking space behind it. We don't know when/where the car accelerated. But honestly, there's not enough space there to react to an unexpected event.

 

[MomE]

That's the problem. Most of the time, the manufacturer slaps some fix together and that generally takes care of the problem. This particular problem is weird enough that the normal course of action didn't work, so now it's just spiraling out of control.

There are lots of recalls where the fix is sorta iffy. Generally, they don't cause many problems, so no one ever pays attention. In this case, you've got an iffy fix that's just not sticking. Thus the big problem.

Plus, it's a problem that's just tailor made for user error to blame the vehicle instead. That totally screws up investigators trying to pin down the cause.

The iffy fix isn't sticking, cuz Toyota keeps trying to deny what the real problem is.

And I agree with you that there's going to be someone out there blaming the car when it's not the car. Totally agree. But professionals should understand that AND understand what's at stake. They have to take the bad with the good and stop trying to deny the true problem. Take every claim and every suggestion and run with it. Then either it's true or it's not. It's the whole, "I'm wrong all the time. It's how I eventually get to right." mentality. Do whatever it takes to ensure the safety of your customers. That's all it would take to shine a better light on Toyota. And believe you me, I'm wanting Toyota to turn this ship around! I don't want to be driving around in a heap of worthless metal and plastic! And I quite like my car, actually...even with as hard as it is to get a seat in the middle!

 

[Guest]

I'm thinking it's that they honestly have no clue what is the problem, so they're just stickign to their story for now.

A lot of these claims show NOTHING wrong. It's confusing as hell to the Toyota people and the gov't investigators.

The public would love a solid answer, but it's such a weird problem, no one can give anything.

 

[Guest]

Thanks for the link. I was thinking of a different story. If it's in a parking lot, the only good thing is that it's unlikely anyone would get killed. It's the freeway speed ones that scare me.

 

[MomE]

Thanks for the link. I was thinking of a different story. If it's in a parking lot, the only good thing is that it's unlikely anyone would get killed. It's the freeway speed ones that scare me.

Unless you're pregnant like me.... And there's the real possiblity that even at low speeds something could happen to the baby....

And then there's the fact that right across from my driveway is a "pond".... I mean it's across a two lane road, but that's not THAT far....

It all scares me.

There was also a second RAV incident very similar to the link I posted. The lady was trying to park her car outside some building (can't remember) and ran into the side of the building just like that. But I can't tell from the story or the photo how far it accelerated.

 

[MomE]

I'm thinking it's that they honestly have no clue what is the problem, so they're just stickign to their story for now.

A lot of these claims show NOTHING wrong. It's confusing as hell to the Toyota people and the gov't investigators.

The public would love a solid answer, but it's such a weird problem, no one can give anything.

But see, that's where I have an issue. Obviously SOMETHING is wrong. Obviously. Toyota acknowledges something is wrong or they wouldn't try to fix it. Sometimes it's okay to NOT have an answer YET and say they are trying everything they can to work it out rather than to say NOTHING is wrong when there is so obviously something wrong.... I mean they even hold press conferences with some hired professional that says this (whatever this of the day is) is not the issue....

Not sure the validity, but I read a story about someone who went to the NHTSA with a list of over 1000 Camrys with an acceleration problem similar to his or hers. The NHTSA said well we're throwing out 600+ of them because we don't agree they are related and then denied the claim for an investigation. I'm sorry, but if your database shows over 1000 claims of sudden acceleration, there's something wrong. That demands an investigation....

See...it's not adding up. THAT'S what is tarnishing Toyota and the NHTSA. SOMETHING is wrong, and to the public it appears that both are either trying to cover it up or refusing to see that there is a problem.

 

[safeinthecar]

A lot of companies don't have the engine disengage when you step on the brake...You hold the brake, rev the engine, then let the brakes go.....You hold the brake, rev the engine, then let the brakes go.

I was simplifying. I figured if I started in on how the valve body, servos, and planetary gearset worked it would just muddle up the thinking process. The important point was that you hit the brake and the engine no longer turns the wheels, allowing you to stop (at least this is the plan).

As far as brake stands; you can certainly force the issue, assuming you don't like your brakes, but a brake stand is not a normal driving condition. The bands and the sprag can't operate simultaneously, so hopping on the brake and gas at the same time is going to cause the engine to upshift and spin the wheels while the brake is still physically holding the wheels. Honestly, I can not think of a single emergency driving situation that a brake stand is going to improve upon.


***I forgot to multi-quote momE***

It is true, that shifting into neutral if your car accelerates suddenly with a large object right infront of you is not going to do much good. The point of my thread was to know what to do if your car was running away so that you don't panic when action could save you. If you hit something before you even have time to register what is going on, panic won't be part of the issue.

 

[SafeDad]

Toyota got caught in a storm of bad publicity. The problems may be real, they may be widespread and they may deserve the attention they are getting. But if you think it's just Toyota, you are fooling yourself. The other car companies are no different. The bottom line comes first, and many have had awful bottom lines and that doesn't help. There are hundreds if not thousands of lawsuits for mechanical issues that cause serious injury or death every year, most of them sealed so they never reach the public. Complaints for every type of car are reported all the time. Some generate investigations, some are ignored for who knows what reason.

Yeah, Toyota got caught. They should have known better. But, whatever make or model you are driving, you should be just as wary, because obviously the safeguards in place with the NHTSA are easily bypassed.

 

[Guest]

Yeah, Toyota got caught. They should have known better. But, whatever make or model you are driving, you should be just as wary, because obviously the safeguards in place with the NHTSA are easily bypassed.

It's not just the NHTSA either. FDA, EPA, pretty much all the gov't "protection" agencies have less than optimal practices. If you freaked out about all the shady stuff going on like the public is doing with Toyota, you'd never eat anything (including local organic due to chemicals leaching into the water supply) or take another medicine (FDA approved or not) or buy any toys for your kids, etc. The systems in the US are better than in many other countries, but they're hardly infallible.

Overall, I think Toyota makes good products. I'd rather the hysteria die down to a reasonable level so they have a shot at surviving. All the car companies do stuff just like Toyota, and I wish they'd all survive so we have the jobs and vehicle choices that we do.

 

[Zappa]

Toyota got caught in a storm of bad publicity. The problems may be real, they may be widespread and they may deserve the attention they are getting. But if you think it's just Toyota, you are fooling yourself. The other car companies are no different. The bottom line comes first, and many have had awful bottom lines and that doesn't help. There are hundreds if not thousands of lawsuits for mechanical issues that cause serious injury or death every year, most of them sealed so they never reach the public. Complaints for every type of car are reported all the time. Some generate investigations, some are ignored for who knows what reason.

Yeah, Toyota got caught. They should have known better. But, whatever make or model you are driving, you should be just as wary, because obviously the safeguards in place with the NHTSA are easily bypassed.

:yeahthat:

The media frenzy is out of control. Someone else posted this image a week or so ago and I grabbed a copy of it.

 

[MomE]

Toyota got caught in a storm of bad publicity. The problems may be real, they may be widespread and they may deserve the attention they are getting. But if you think it's just Toyota, you are fooling yourself. The other car companies are no different. The bottom line comes first, and many have had awful bottom lines and that doesn't help. There are hundreds if not thousands of lawsuits for mechanical issues that cause serious injury or death every year, most of them sealed so they never reach the public. Complaints for every type of car are reported all the time. Some generate investigations, some are ignored for who knows what reason.

Yeah, Toyota got caught. They should have known better. But, whatever make or model you are driving, you should be just as wary, because obviously the safeguards in place with the NHTSA are easily bypassed.

Oh! So that's what happened to Tiger.

 

[MomE]

***I forgot to multi-quote momE***

It is true, that shifting into neutral if your car accelerates suddenly with a large object right infront of you is not going to do much good. The point of my thread was to know what to do if your car was running away so that you don't panic when action could save you. If you hit something before you even have time to register what is going on, panic won't be part of the issue.

Understood. And your point is valid under those conditions.

My problem is, those conditions exist for me maybe 1% of the time I am driving...maybe that much, probably less. And if I take the recent cases I am aware of, only one (the San Diego case) out of four would have been saved by this action. And I'm willing to bet that's representative of the cases as a whole.

 

[Guest]

http://money.cnn.com/2010/03/15/autos/toyota_prius_presser/index.htm?hpt=T2

If true, this kind of story is what worries me most about the Toyota problem. The fact that they couldn't replicate the problem doesn't bother me. Lots of legit problems can't be replicated all the time by the factory techs. It's the inconsistencies to the driver's story. Refusing to shift to neutral, possibly lightly riding the brakes to get the rear lights to turn on, but not fully braking to engage the engine cutoff software, etc.

This is starting to sound a lot like a made up incident, and that's the sort of thing that can really muddy up the search for the true problem. Plus, it really hurts a company that actually employs a lot more Americans than many realize.