Safety 1st brand new response

[Jocey'sMommy]

http://www.safety1st.com/usa/eng/Faq-Section?id=22

oh and please look at their facebook page

 

[Jessica61624]

Yup never buying a dorel product again!

 

[Brianna]

How many contradictions are there?

 

[AnnaC]

Proper Rear Facing Installation and Angle Tips
Dorel testing has shown that the resulting angle leads to the best crash test performance, even for older and larger children, for car seats that have level line indicators.
If your car seat model has an angle indicator with a ball, rather than level lines, the ball should be between the two marks on the indicator that matches the weight of your child.
NOTE: Check the angle indicator while parked on level ground.
Do not recline more than 45 degrees from vertical.
Follow CR manufacturer’s instruction for acceptable rear-facing recline angle.
Not all manufacturers recommend the same angle.
As baby ages and obtains better head control, he/she may sit more upright. This can actually provide for improved crash protection.
CR recline indicator:
The recline angle indicator is part of the CR and should be used as indicated by the manufacturer.

(bolding mine)



So, WTH? Why are they saying that an older baby can sit more upright, and that it may provide better crash protection, when everything else they've said (even in this exact FAQ) is saying that you must use the seat at 45 degrees???????

 

[Jocey'sMommy]

yeah, I made a comment lol I am Gratia Cash

who ever was in charge of the FAQ needs to be fired and safety 1st needs to think before they type for something . . . even car seat idiots can poke holes in that

 

[momtoo3]

I'm more confused now than ever. There were so many contradictions.

 

[MaeganEmily]

So confusing ... are they quoting the CPST training manual, and then stating that their seats are pretty much the only ones that MUST be at 45 degrees, even though it's proven that it's safer for older children to be more upright?

Is that what they're saying?

 

[mamakc]

Don't recline more than 45*
recline seat so that level line is parallel to the ground (approximately 50-53* as we've seen)
Sitting your older child more upright is safer
Sitting your older child at 45* is "optimal"

 

[LISmama810]

So confusing ... are they quoting the CPST training manual, and then stating that their seats are pretty much the only ones that MUST be at 45 degrees, even though it's proven that it's safer for older children to be more upright?

Is that what they're saying?

I think that's what they intended to say, but it sure didn't come out that way. Definitely contradictory and definitely confusing. It was more clear before, LOL.

 

[creideamh]

I don't have a CA, but what?? Which part are you supposed to listen to?!?! Epic fail, Dorel.

 

[momtotwogirls]

Clear as mud they are.

 

[Emi's Mommy]

Too confusing, too contradictory.

I'm now the owner of a My Ride......and I really liked my CA

 

[SAHDADDY]

i'll never buy another doral seat again, that is so confusing

 

[eyeslkethesky5391]

I agree never to buy a dorel seat again (i've only bought one for a friend) and I still like the onboard air but I like the sr35 more

 

[wendytthomas]

They need a PR editor, that's for sure.

Am I the only one who finds this funny? "Gah, stop yelling at us! Here, have a quickly hobbled together FAQ just for technicians. You know who you are." LOL I may still have my instruction booklet from my class somewhere, but it's not the current curriculum.

I still don't feel any changed toward them. They make a tall seat that installs well in tight spaces and fits tall kids and heavier kids a good long while rear facing while not being difficult to install generally at a price point that's reasonable. It still is one of my top five seats. Let the politics of the company stay behind the scenes. The parents buying it generally don't care.

And of course they can't recommend rear facing taller than 40". But they don't specifically say it's not allowed. When I asked Vera from Combi about using a new D ring from Britax to tether rear facing she said she couldn't recommend it. Not because of any big issues, just because they hadn't specifically tested that D ring with the Coccoro. But if I trusted it to work (the actual D ring, not the connection or the tether), then they didn't see any issue with it, but they hadn't tested it and so could not recommend it. As a company representative she couldn't. The meaning behind what she said was clear. Sure, go for it. Vera trusts Britax products (the Britax rep was also in the room, though. LOL), she'd use it. But only off the record. It seems Safety 1st is saying it the same way. They cannot recommend it. However, does there appear to be a risk involved (and yes, I've heard about the overrotation above 40", which makes no sense based on proportions, only if you have a dummy who is 40" and the next dummy up is 53" or whatever and it causes problems) based on how we know rear facing carseats work and the requirements behind their testing? To me, no. The head will stay protected and the seat will not recline beyond what it should. But not everyone interprets it the same way, and that's their choice to make.

Wendy

 

[LISmama810]

But it's not quite the same. Vera can't say (but can imply) that it's ok to use a different D-ring, but she HAS okayed (in writing) many other allowances that aren't in the manual, presumably because they have been tested and are ok--they just don't want to confuse issues by putting it in the manual. This includes installing the seat more upright and skipping the "required" removable RF lockoff.

I don't see anywhere how Dorel is implying that it's ok to use the seat above 40" or less than 45 degrees.

I know some people have been told it's ok by customer service reps, but like a poster on another thread pointed out, Russ from Sunshine Kids says some crazy stuff and we all know when he's talking out his butt and to ignore him.

Despite what some customer service people have said, Dorel's OFFICIAL stance has always been to have the line level on all their seats. I remember hearing that years ago even before I became a tech.

It's understandable to want to find excuses to get around it, but the fact remains that they don't allow it, officially or unofficially. Whether or not we choose to heed that is an individual choice.

 

[murphydog77]

Proper Rear Facing Installation and Angle Tips

• Dorel testing has shown that the resulting angle leads to the best crash test performance, even for older and larger children, for car seats that have level line indicators.

• 
  [*]If your car seat model has an angle indicator with a ball, rather than level lines, the ball should be between the two marks on the indicator that matches the weight of your child.
  
  ​
  [*]NOTE: Check the angle indicator while parked on level ground.
  [*]Do not recline more than 45 degrees from vertical.
  [*]Follow CR manufacturer’s instruction for acceptable rear-facing recline angle.
  [*]Not all manufacturers recommend the same angle.
  [*]As baby ages and obtains better head control, he/she may sit more upright. This can actually provide for improved crash protection.

CR recline indicator:

• The recline angle indicator is part of the CR and should be used as indicated by the manufacturer.

I've highlighted the important part in red. Even though they contradict themselves by saying a child may sit more upright, their *testing* shows that the Complete Air performs better when the line is even with the ground, so that's how the seat should be installed. And we really can't fault them for reiterating that their instructions must be followed, not the curriculum. Graco started saying that loudly a few years ago, then Chicco, and now Dorel.

ETA: ignore the blank asterisk. No amount of changing the coding makes that darn thing go away

 

[kidzndogz]

Well, regarding the part about their testing showing best results on that recline, I wonder if it's just slightly better numbers, or if it outright failed upright? That wouldnt make sense since they even said themselves kids are more protected upright in general. Just not in their seats? I want to know why.

 

[LISmama810]

Well, regarding the part about their testing showing best results on that recline, I wonder if it's just slightly better numbers, or if it outright failed upright? That wouldnt make sense since they even said themselves kids are more protected upright in general. Just not in their seats? I want to know why.

Yeah, like the Regent recall. The seat performed BETTER with the new rules, but was acceptable without them.

And how are they measuring "better"?

And their facility has a sled with a "front" and "back" seat. I'd love to know if their "back" seat is large enough to accommodate the properly reclined seat and if their dummy truly doesn't mash its head or get stuck between the seats.

 

[krissybear25]

Proper Rear Facing Installation and Angle Tips

[*]Dorel testing has shown that the resulting angle leads to the best crash test performance, even for older and larger children, for car seats that have level line indicators.
[*]If your car seat model has an angle indicator with a ball, rather than level lines, the ball should be between the two marks on the indicator that matches the weight of your child.
[*]NOTE: Check the angle indicator while parked on level ground.
[*]Do not recline more than 45 degrees from vertical.
[*]Follow CR manufacturer’s instruction for acceptable rear-facing recline angle.
[*]Not all manufacturers recommend the same angle.
[*]As baby ages and obtains better head control, he/she may sit more upright. This can actually provide for improved crash protection.
CR recline indicator:
[*]The recline angle indicator is part of the CR and should be used as indicated by the manufacturer.


I've highlighted the important part in red. Even though they contradict themselves by saying a child may sit more upright, their *testing* shows that the Complete Air performs better when the line is even with the ground, so that's how the seat should be installed. And we really can't fault them for reiterating that their instructions must be followed, not the curriculum. Graco started saying that loudly a few years ago, then Chicco, and now Dorel.

ETA: ignore the blank asterisk. No amount of changing the coding makes that darn thing go away

It says to not recline more then 45 degrees. When I install the seat with the line level to the ground it is more then 45 degrees. I use the Clinometer app on my iPhone and took the cover off and measured the bottom part and the headrest (cuz I'm not sure where to measure it)
And bot were more reclined then 45 degrees.