Recommendation please: convertible in '10 honda fit

[s_mack]

Hi.

• one child - currently 8 mo, 20lb
• 2010 honda fit
• install probably behind passenger seat because driver is tall (seat all the way back)
• not concerned about air travel
• not concerned too much about price (see comments)
• couldn't care less about asthetics
• infrequent driving. rare long trips, but some.
• car parked in garage

Looking for recommendations. Left to my own devices/research, I think I'm leaning toward the Britax Advocate but that's just based on friends' opinions and salesperson rhetoric. Unfortunately both are very biased. My marketing degree tells me that people tend to justify their purchases, so my friend that owns a Britax is going to say its the best thing out there. The salesperson might be saying the same thing just because they get higher profits from them. Unfortunately, there are NO independent ratings out there that I can find.

They don't score all that high on the NHSA's ease of use rankings, nor do they do particularly well on healthystuff.org's toxic chemical tests. *sigh*. Why is nothing easy?

Thanks.

- Steven

 

[mommycat]

Welcome! I hope you find some answers here, we certainly have a lot of great information and first hand accounts.

One of the things you should be looking for in a convertible seat is the longevity for rearfacing ("RF" around here), since rearfacing is the safest way to ride and one of the biggest "safety features" out there. If you can RF to at least 2yo, and preferably 4yo, you will be keeping your child safer, longer. So look for RF weight limit of at least 35lbs (go up to 45lbs) and a nice tall shell and RF height limit. Tall top slots for FF are a consideration for future use.

Britax seats (at least the convertibles) have tended to be some of the easiest to install and use. I have owned and used a lot of seats and my Classic style Marathon is one of my favourite seats. Installs tend to be very easy, though I have yet to install one of the newer designs. The seats tend to fit fairly compactly front-to-back and can be installed as upright as 30 degrees to vertical for an older child, giving more room up front. The seats have decent limits for both RF and FF (front/forward facing). They are not the tallest seats out there, so for a tall child, especially one with a long torso, there may be better choices, but for most kids these seats will last long enough to get to a decent FF age and then to a decent booster age (around 5yo or so). They tend to have limited leg space for the kids when RF, though the new designs may be a bit better in that regard (not sure) and in any case, this is not a safety issue, merely a comfort issue, and *most* kids don't seem to mind at all even at ages when they are plenty old enough to let you know if there is an issue. (They like to sit with their legs curled up or rest them up the seat back, etc.)

As for the Advocate vs the other Britax seats, there may be some benefit to the side impact cushions, to the child or to passengers sitting beside the seat, but as you have found, there are no test results to be had to see the effect, and there are no regulated standards for side impact testing at all, so you have to take your own gut feeling and the manufacturer's word as your guiding points. Most of us don't feel like one should stretch the budget to get them, but if you have the money to spare and like them, and aren't trying to fit seats/passengers side by side, then they can't hurt. There are seats with "better" features (higher limits, leg room...) for less money but if that is not a consideration...

Some other seats that you could consider are the Diono Radian models (taller and higher weight limit for RF - some models go to 45lbs), the Graco MyRide (very similar in fit to the Britax convertibles but more leg room), First Years TrueFit (only 35lbs RF but a nice tall seat), and the Safety 1st Complete Air (though I think this still has a 36" stated RF height limit??). I hope someone else jumps in, in case I missed some seats.

I would suggest that you take your baby to the store, try out some seats for fit and ease of use, ask to try your favourites in your car (Toys 'R Us and many baby boutiques let you try the install before you buy), and then decide.

Assuming that the Advocate is not too wide to install in a smaller car like the Fit, and you like it, (and your baby is not really tall), it is a fine choice and I wouldn't hesitate to get it if that's what you like.

Oh, just remembered that there is a lot of talk recently of a new seat coming out which is many people's current dream seat, the Clek Foonf. But I am not sure what the arrival date is for this seat, or any cool particulars - anyone?

 

[s_mack]

Thanks. Having not received any input until now (and in fact, not even knowing if my post was up due to the stringent anti-spam measures taken here), I went ahead and made the decision unassisted.

We got the Advocate. For whatever reason, the exact colour we wanted at the store I happened to go in... was $50 off. It was an unopened/undamaged box with a 2012 date but that's what it rang up as. So that was a bonus.

I personally am a sceptic. When I was a kid, which wasn't THAT long ago, we didn't have car seats at all and we drove much less safe vehicles and somehow we're not all dead. And the fact that in something so supposedly critical to our children's safety, that there is no government generated test statistics to support our decisions? Then I suppose the cheapest seat is exactly as good as the best.

But often in life, I present myself with the "what if I'm wrong?" question. If I'm right, I save myself a few bucks. If I'm wrong... if we get in an accident and my son is hurt, will I not blame myself for not doing all that I could?

I really strongly feel that there should be comprehensive crash test data on all child seats and that they should be available to the public. Failing that, all I can do is spend as much as I can to absolve myself of guilt in the worst case scenario.

- Steven.

ps. he is a tall boy, so it would have been nice to get a more timely input. Perhaps the admin here could accept a small amount of spam in the interest of children safety and comfort

 

[mommycat]

Hello Steven,
So sorry that you didn't get a timely response. Part of the reason may be that new users' posts are moderated for the initial few days, so there is a bit of a delay. Also, weekends tend to be slow since many of us have children and things get busy on the days off. Rest assured that your choice is not a bad one even if he is a tall boy. It is a nice seat, and Britax is a reputable company. The fact that the seat was also in the right colour, on sale and was a recent seat is indeed a nice bonus.

While yes, most of us are still alive despite the lack of carseats, there are a lot of children who did die or were injured who could have been saved or spared the pain by riding in a good carseat. Progress is made from lessons learned. For example the statistics for death and injury from Sweden, where kids are routinely rear-faced to about 4 years old despite no laws to dictate this, show *very* high protection of children in crashes. As you say, it is one of those things where you will probably never have to actually use it, but when it is needed it sure is important to have.

As it says at the top of the page, "Motor Vehicle Crashes are the #1 cause of fatal injury for children and adults, age groups 1 to 34." so the numbers do bear it out. In Nova Scotia a similar stat has recently changed and pedestrian injuries (deaths? recall is fuzzy...) of kids now outpace those from crashes, in part due to the work that has been done around car seat and booster safety. While the cars are safer, we still need to couple the passengers to the vehicle frame through a carseat or properly fitting seatbelt in order to truly benefit from features such as crumple zones, airbags, etc.

You are right, the standards as it stands now only indicate which seats are "safe" and thus on the market (where safe = pass standards) while unsafe seats are not passed. (Yes, in our system essentially the cheapest seat is as good as the most expensive. Personal experiences or feelings about seats or their features or manufacturer track record do sort the seats a bit but at heart all the seats are essentially safe and there is no double standard based on which seat you can afford. Cost is not always a good indicator, at any rate, because there are plenty of seats at a ridiculous cost that do (or older models used to do) a pretty poor job of some of their functions compared to other less expensive seats.)

Part of the reasoning for not releasing testing results, I believe, is that it is difficult for the general parent to look at all the numbers and draw a reliable conclusion, since so many factors are at play. Also, testing is done to assess the seats to the standard, but there is no guarantee the seat which passed the test better would also perform better in a specific real-life crash which is not an exact replica of the test - factors at play being speed, direction, occupants, specific vehicle, conditions, install, etc. There is no way to test every possible scenario. All that said, we would ideally like to have the data available, if only to have more accountability from the manufacturers as far as their claims about safety features go.

Again, I'm sorry that you felt like you were left hanging with no answers.

If you have any questions about installation or features on your new seat, please do come back and we will be happy to help, hopefully a bit more quickly!

 

[s_mack]

Thanks.

I guess I do have one question. The Britax instructions state that the tether can/should be used for RF. But in my car that doesn't really seem feasible. I mean, I can manage it... but I can't get the kid in/out with it tethered (the anchor point requires the strap to over the "shoulders" of the carseat, over the child, and up and over the car's seatback) and to untether it, I need to open the rear hatch. Not exactly a model of convenience.

When I took it to the local fire department to check out the installation, he said the only thing I did "wrong" was to use the tether... that it is only for FF. I showed him the instructions and he still said he'd not use it.

Thoughts?

The seat does come with a... well, I guess I'd call it a "tether adapter"... so you can tether it to something solid on the floor that's not necessarily a proper anchor. The only such point in the fit is a part of the front seat's frame which is a relatively thin piece of steel with holes cut in it. it moves with the seat if its adjusted (but we rarely adjust the passenger seat). If its purely for stability, is that a good point? Or should I just leave it untethered? Or should I really be opening the catch, unhooking it, putting the kid in, re-hooking it (and again when taking him out)?? Not to sound lazy, but its a pain and had I bought any other seat that wouldn't be an option anyway.

- Steven

 

[bubbaray]

It is entirely optional whether to RFg tether. The seat passed crash testing without being tethered RFg. It must be FFg tethered down the road when you turn it FFg (ETA assuming you are in Canada)

What you describe is Australian tethering an we don't recommend that. If you want to RFg tether use the D ring that came with your seat and loop it around a front row seat track or other fixed point on the vehicle. Then clip the tether strap to that.

ETA. Can you post a photo of the piece you are referring to?? It sounds fine to me IF that seat isn't moved.

HTH

Sent from my iPhone using Car-Seat.Org

 

[s_mack]

I wasn't clear then, because what you describe:

If you want to RFg tether use the d ring that came with your seat and loop it around a front row seat track

sounds to me what I described:

The seat does come with a... well, I guess I'd call it a "tether adapter"... so you can tether it to something solid on the floor that's not necessarily a proper anchor. The only such point in the fit is a part of the front seat's frame which is a relatively thin piece of steel with holes cut in it. it moves with the seat if its adjusted (but we rarely adjust the passenger seat).

Tethering it when it is FF is trivial, since there is then direct access to the proper anchor point on the back of the car's seat.

- Steven

 

[s_mack]

Oh, i get it... the difference is the point I'm talking about is a potentially moving part. Correct?

edit: I just googled "australian method" and I get it now. The straps to the back is the "Australian method" and the strap to the floor is the "Swedish method". I'm clean now, except still wondering if the frame part I describe is suitable. It does move along with the front seat, so my concern is that in a crash if the front seat goes flying, does it take the carseat with it? Then again, in a crash that bad its likely a moot point, sadly.

- Steven

 

[mommycat]

:yeahthat: RF tethering is at this point totally optional. Some people do chose to RF tether using the Australian method as you describe, but most find it impractical for the reasons you stated, since it makes it difficult to access the child. Many people, including some techs, do use the D-Ring around a seat track or similar (it must be a solid part fixed to the vehicle frame, not a moving part). Some professionals have reservations about using a non-approved tether point though, so I always chose to leave my Britax seats un-tethered when RF. I know the seats passes testing this way and there is no controversy or second-guessing involved.

 

[s_mack]

Good enough, thanks.

 

[bubbaray]

RFg to a moving part is a parental judgement call. Personally if I'm not moving the seat I'd be ok tethering there. If the crash is severe enough to eject a passenger seat it probably doesn't bode well for the other occupants of the car anyway.

It's really your call. I can tell you that IF I can find a RFg tether point, i personally prefer to RFg tether my seats (the ones that permit it). In trucks, I strongly prefer to RFg tether. Again, parental judgement. There are other techs here who do not like RFg tethering. At a check I would tell you that with your seat, the manufacturer recommends it and it was your call whether you did it or not. Other techs might tell you that there are no RFg tether points on the test bench or that TC doesn't recommend it because vehicle manufacturers don't had approved points.

For me with my own kids, I prefer to RFg tether.

HTH

ETA. FFg tethering isn't trivial. It's mandatory in canada and it provides significant protection in a crash due to the reduction in head excursion.

Sent from my iPhone using Car-Seat.Org

 

[s_mack]

One saying "do" one saying "don't" both saying "its your call"

I'll figure it out. Thanks.

 

[amyd]

If you'd like another opinion, I am personally not comfortable tethering to a point that hasn't been approved by the vehicle manufacturer. I choose to leave my RFing seats untethered.

 

[s_mack]

Another Q...

In the Britax manual it says to use the LUAS system only to the weight specified by the vehicle manufacturer (and then use belts) and if unspecified, to assume 40lbs. As far as I can find, it is unspecified. Do I really need to switch to belts at 40lbs? Frankly, that seems a bit... well, illogical. Don't the larger booster seats also use LUAS?

 

[amyd]

Another Q...

In the Britax manual it says to use the LUAS system only to the weight specified by the vehicle manufacturer (and then use belts) and if unspecified, to assume 40lbs. As far as I can find, it is unspecified. Do I really need to switch to belts at 40lbs? Frankly, that seems a bit... well, illogical. Don't the larger booster seats also use LUAS?

Honda's limit is 40lbs. Yes, some of the larger booster seats do allow the use of LUAS but in that case it's only to keep an unoccupied booster from becoming a projectile. A booster is not a restraint so it doesn't matter if the child is over the LUAS limit; the seatbelt is what is restraining the child in the booster.

 

[s_mack]

Huh... how about that? I didn't know that

Is that a truism? I mean, are all boosters that way? I could have sworn my friend's two girls are in boosters and they were 5-pt harnesses.

 

[amyd]

I think you are referring to what are known as child/booster seats. These seats have a 5 point harness (that's the child part) and then the harness can be removed and the seat used as a booster. Some of these seats allow the LUAS in booster mode, some don't. When we speak of a booster on here, we are referring to a belt positioning booster seat that does not have a harness. Some of these seats also have LUAS. Sorry for the confusion!

 

[mommycat]

Also, some vehicle manufacturers have higher LUAS limits, so while in a Honda you are supposed to switch over at 40lbs, in other vehicles it is still useful. Thankfully seatbelt installs with a Britax are typically just as simple.