Question How can Plus Test approved seats NOT be better than the others?

[Lorenzo]

Hi everybody, this is my first post, so I greet you all and I'm pleased to have finally found a reference forum for baby seats.

My daughter is 7 weeks old and I'm looking for the best car seat available on the market. Today I discovered the existence of the Plus Test and I thought it sorted out the top seats in the world, being the most strict seats test.

So I am a bit confused reading in an old post by Adventuredad that:

Right now five seats have passed the Plus Test. Hi-Way, Belogic and DuoLogic from Akta/Graco and the two Izikid seats. These seats are no safer than Maxi Cosi Mobi, Multi Tech or Two-Way despite having passed the Plus test.

How can the five seats that passed the Plus test not be better than the ones which failed it? I am really confused about this. If the Plus test measures forces in head and neck upon collision, aren't weaker forces always better?

Thank you very much for the clarification. Keep up the good work!

Lorenzo

 

[newyorkDOC]

He didn't say those seats failed the test. They simply haven't passed it presumably (correct me if I'm wrong) because they have yet to be tested.

 

[Leche Mami]

My understanding is that a seat that can face rear or front cannot get plus test approval. It is only for rear-facing only seats. So, I think what AD is saying is that the other seats are just as safe when used RF. They just can't be put through the plus test simply because they CAN be installed FF.

 

[Lorenzo]

Thanks for your answer, that would explain everything, but what's the reason for this?

L

 

[Adventuredad]

Good question. As pointed out before there are quite a few seats which haven't gone through the Plus Test. If you don't want to read the whole thing below I'll point out that DuoLogic is the only seat which will be a great fit for a 7 week old. It will last to around 4 years of age.

Short background of the Plus Test (likely far more than anyone wants to know;-):

The new standard is by far the strictest car seat standard in the world. We have created this one in order to make up for some shortcomings in the European ECE R44 car seat standard. The ECE R44 is still good and strict, a bit stricter than the US FMVSS 213 standard.

The main weakness with ECE R44, like other standards, are all the forward facing seats for young children. The difference in safety between rear facing and forward facing seats is simply huge, 500% or five times safer in favor of rear facing. Parents should not use forward facing seats before age 4 but many are still unaware of this crucial information.

Here in Sweden we talk a lot about keeping kids rear facing until age 4 or longer. We feel very strongly about not using forward facing seats for children until then. There is no law about minimum rear facing time in Sweden, I could theoretically FF my child at 7 months, but parents are in general quite well informed about rear facing.

We don't just talk about no forward facing seats, they are also not sold in the country. Trying to buy a forward facing seats for a 2 year old child is basically impossible since none are sold. There is no law about this, retailers simply don't sell the FF seats since we care very much about our children staying safe in traffic.

Sweden has been way ahead in car seat safety for a very long time. In 1975 we created the excellent "T-standard" which was a good car seat standard. By then we had already been uysing rear facing seats for 10 years. Back then there was no advanced equipment available to measure forces in the neck like today, it was done through measuring in the chest area etc. The T-standard was phased out in 2008 due to EU regulations, only one standard is allowed in Europe.

The Plus Test is measuring forces in the neck which makes it impossible for any forward facing seat to pass the test. This is exactly what we want since neck/head forces in a forward facing seat are extremely high and dangerous for young children.

The Plus Test is also using a higher crash speed than the EU or US standard and a different crash test dummy. The "Q" dummy is used which is incredibly expensive. The overall crash pulse becomes different in the Plus Test and makes it far more difficult to pass.

Seats such as Britax Multi Tech and Britax Two-Way can be used rear facing and forward facing for older children. Since the the seats can be used forward facing, regardless if it's when a child is 5, they must also be tested this way. Forward facing thankfully have no chance of passing the Plus Test so these seats are not even tested. Multi Tech and Two-Way are still just as safe rear facing as seats which have passed the Plus Test

None of the many popular forward facing seats sold for very young children in UK, France, Germany, Ireland, etc. go through Plus Test since they have no chance of passing due to the off the chart high forces in head/neck.

Most of the Swedish rear facing seats have passed the Plus Test:

- Britax Hi-Way and Belogic are the only ones which have passed up to 25 kg (gold standard)

- BeSafe X3, X3 Isofix, and DuoLogic have passed up to 18 kg (silver standard). 18 kg is the maximum rear facing weight for any Isofix rear facing seat.

Maxi Cosi have said they will not currently test the "Mobi" model. This is still an excellent seat which is just as safe as the other seats. (It also have the best recline/sleep position of any RF seat).

 

[Lorenzo]

Thank you very much Adventuredad for your very thorough answer. I also apologize with the forum admins as apparently I didn't post in the right place.

However, I still have a couple of doubts:

• Groups In my online research, I have read many times that seats with dedicated age ranges are better than those who cover many years and weights (e.g. all the rest being equal, a group 1 seat is better than a group 1-2 seat, which is better than a 1-2-3 seat. I think this is pretty logical. So I'm a bit surprised seeing that all the top Swedish seats (Hi-Way, Belogic and DuoLogic from Akta/Graco, Izikid, Maxi Cosi Mobi, Multi Tech and Two-Way) cover two or even three groups (0-2, 1-2, 0-1). How can they be more secure than dedicated seats which cover just one group? Speaking about my own personal needs for my 7 (now almost 8) weeks old daughter, how can be the DuoLogic be better than, say, the Maxicosi Pebble or Cabriofix, which are both group 0+ (obviously rear-facing) seats, which score at the top in both Swiss and Italian tests? It has to do with build quality, I guess? Does anyone have any experience of the comfort of a newborn in a DuoLogic?
• Plus Test As for the Plus Test (PT), then I guess I misread this NTF test, which lists many seats along with those who passed the PT. I incorrectly assumed that ALL the seats in the list went through the PT. As this is not the case, does anyone know where I can find the list of seats which were plus-tested? Regarding also the former point, in this list also appear some group 0+ only seat (0-13kg) (eg Recaro Young Profil) which also I assumed didn't pass the PT, but probably they also weren't even plus-tested. So, does anyone know how to correctly read this NTF test? I found the link to it in this British site about rear-facing

Thank you very much!

Lorenzo

 

[mommycat]

I know that AD will be able to give a better answer, and Imight be wrong since my understanding of EU seats and groups is a bit hazy.... but I will GUESS that the Swedish RF seats are considered so good because they are designed specifically to keep kids RF for so long. Many times the seats which claim to do "everything" make trade-offs, but maybe these particular are just very well designed to begin with. They are able to take the forces of a larger child so keeping a smaller baby in place is not an issue, and fit can be adjusted. The bonus is that they RF for so long - right across the weight ranges for group 0-2 weights - which is much safer, while most of the other EU certified seats do not RF past 13kg (Group 0+ max weight). Group 1 seats are for kids 9-18kg but most seem to be FF only, and while they may be very good FF seats, they are not as safe as even a "lesser" RF seat. Group 2 seats are for kids 15-25kg and are usually FF as well, but many of the Swedish seats continue to RF into this weight range. No matter how high the test ratings are for a FF Group 2 seat, the child will be safer in a seat which RF.

http://www.bmj.com/content/338/bmj.b1994.full

Manufacturers and retailers need to increase the availability of rear facing car seats for children over 9 kg. The current labelling for weight range used for European child car seats may imply that for children over 9 kg forward facing seats are as safe as rear facing seats.

The Pebble and Cabriofix are infant only, yes? (Group 0+, max weight of 13kg and also limited by shell height since instructions seem to say the head cannot extend past the shell.) They would be nice to have while the baby is tiny and may fit a newborn better than some 0-1 or 0-2 seats, but they will only last a short time. Then you need to get another RF seat to continue to RF.

 

[Adventuredad]

Groups: Your thinking about children and age groups for child seats is more or less correct. It's virtually impossible to make a seat which is perfect for a 6 month old and a 6 year old. There are always some compromises.

Multi Tech and Two-Way last from 6 months to about 6 years (MT longer). Safety is amazing when used rear facing, it doesn't get any better. Forward facing one can have opinions about belt fit and weight of the seats. The seats are safe and approved to be used forward facing but many parents use a dedicated high back booster seat in later years instead since these are affordable, light weight and easy to use.

DuoLogic is a unique seat and is in reality a combination of an infant seat and a rear facing seat. It consist of an infant seat which slides into an Isofix base. The infant seat part can be removed and carried with handles just like a regular infant seat. It's the only seat I know of which will fit nicely for a baby who is 2 days old or 3 years old.

Safety: In general we say that an infant seat is as safe as a rear facing seat. That would mean a Cabriofix is as safe as a DuoLogic. It's possible that DuoLogic is slightly safer since it's protected by a steel cage. This is not something we talk about, we look at infant seats as being as safe as rear facing seats.

Plus Test: This test is not mandatory. As I mentioned in the explanation regarding the Plus Test some choose to disregard it. Most seats have no chance of passing (forward facing seats)

Testing and safety: People who know a lot about car seats basically disregard testing. Testing by organisations is flawed, biased and subjective. No two tests are ever done the same so they can't be compared.All car seats in Europe have to pass ECE R44 which is good and quite strict.

Testing of car seats is very biased which explain why an average forward facing seat can receive 75/100 points why an excellent rear facing seat can receive 35/100 points. The rear facing seat is still 500% safer. It's very confusing for customers.

There is a heavy bias toward forward facing seats in the countries where the testing is done (UK, Germany, Austria, etc). People who perform the testing almost always show an embarrassingly poor knowledge of the seats and rear facing in general. The tests results of rear facing seats are often entertaining and laughable to read for those who know extensive knowledge of car seat safety. Pushing forward facing seats is just an easier way to do business.

I sat rear facing in 1967 in one of the first seats made (Klippan). It was a very simple seat which worked well. If this seat could be used today it would be far safer than the best forward facing seat made in 2011. It would not be as great as other rear facing seats made today, due to new materials etc., but it would offer very good protection.

Rear facing is 500% safer which apply pretty much regardless of what seats we compare (meaning high quality seats like we ara talking about here).

 

[Lorenzo]

Thank you very much.

Then I guess I'd better go for a "normal" infant seat until 13 kg and then switch to a Swedish one able to RF until 25 kg.

Britax Hi-Way and Belogic are the only ones which have passed [the Plus Test] up to 25 kg (gold standard)

Are you sure the Hi-Way passed up to 25 kg? Here it seems that it has only passed up to 18 kg. Is this NTF test wrong?

In any case, could you please give me the exact measurements of the Hi-Way, especially the maximum length it takes into the car, to have an idea of how much I should move the front seat forward?

You suggested to use a DuoLogic for a 7 weeks old baby: so the Hi-Way actually is NOT from 0 to 25 kgs? Or it's just that it isn't comfortable at all for a baby?

Thanks again. :thumbsup:

 

[Adventuredad]

- Hi-Way has passed up to 25 kg. NTF page and the Swedish Britax page are likely not up do date.

- Hi-Way is approved 0-25 kg but we normally recommend using it when a child can sit unassisted. This is usually between 4-9 months.

 

[lenats31]

Hi Lorenzo,

here is the low down on ADAC testing of rearfacing seats.

Exsample: Multi-Tech.

Multi-Tech was tested according to the "Worst Case Scenerio" as is all rearfacing seats.

This is how it was tested:

Frontal Impact:
Forward facing with dummies: Q1, Q3 (harnessed) & Q6 (booster)
Rearfacing with dummy: Q6

Side impact:
Forward facing: Q1, Q3 (harnessed) Q6 (booster)
Rearfacing: Q3 & Q6

The seat is supposd to be installed with no more than a 1 cm gap between the MT and the frontseat. ADAC had removed the front seat!!!!

Furthermore the seatbelt instal was slightly wrong.

Since it is the worst case scenerio, the final result that you see, is the result of forward facing testing and the "complicateed" installation in rearfacing mode

I think we all know that people who want thei child to sit forwardfacing, would never throw their money at the Multi-Tech because it is somewhat more exspensive than its´ forward facing counterpart: The Britax Evolva

The ADAC test results are completely meaningless for these reasons.
On top of that they unrightfully give parents the wrong impression of the rearfacing seats, and lead them to buy less safe seats to put it bluntly.

Lena

 

[mumof2]

Here in Sweden we talk a lot about keeping kids rear facing until age 4 or longer. We feel very strongly about not using forward facing seats for children until then. There is no law about minimum rear facing time in Sweden, I could theoretically FF my child at 7 months, but parents are in general quite well informed about rear facing.

wow that is quite interesting I always thought that Sweden did have a minimum age that you had to rearface your child to. I have heard that it is uncommon almost unheard of for children under 4 years to be forward facing?I guess if a child had outgrown by height or weight before the age of 4 years they would have to go forward facing. BUt that would be a very small percentage?

I do love that we can now get in NZ rearfacing carseats up to 25kgs

 

[mommycat]

The article I linked to above had this to say:
http://www.bmj.com/content/338/bmj.b1994.full

Questionnaires and real life observations have shown that 70-75% of Swedish children aged under 3 years travel in rear facing seats.10 Swedish crash data support the use of rear facing seats.2 7 From 1999 to 2006 four children aged under 4 years and restrained in rear facing seats were killed. The deaths were due to fire, drowning, or excessive intrusion and were unrelated to the type of car seat.2 During the same period six children aged under 4 years in forward facing booster seats were killed. Three of these crashes would have been potentially survivable if the children had been travelling in rear facing seats.2 There are no direct comparisons between rear facing and forward facing car seats as forward facing car seats are not commonly used in Sweden. Retrospective cohort analysis of all serious crashes reported to Volvo’s insurance company from 1976 to 1996 included 421 children in rear facing car seats and 950 in forward facing booster seats. The calculated injury reducing effect of rear facing and forward facing seats was 96% and 77% respectively.7

 

[Unregistered]

Sorry am crashing, but was just concerned about something that was written and wanted to clarify ( we have the brittax two way elite rear facing)

Adventurdad you posted the following reply.

"Most of the Swedish rear facing seats have passed the Plus Test:

- Britax Hi-Way and Belogic are the only ones which have passed up to 25 kg (gold standard)

- BeSafe X3, X3 Isofix, and DuoLogic have passed up to 18 kg (silver standard). 18 kg is the maximum rear facing weight for any rear facing seat.

Maxi Cosi have said they will not currently test the "Mobi" model. This is still an excellent seat which is just as safe as the other seats. (It also have the best recline/sleep position of any RF seat). "

You say that 18kg is the maximum rear facing weight for any rear facing seat, but I thought you could use the two way elite rear facing up to 25kg, although I understand what you are saying that the only seats that have passed the plus test up to 25kg are britax hi way and belogic (above)

Could you please clarify
thanks
xx

 

[Leche Mami]

I think he meant that ISOFIX seats only go to 18 kg RF.

 

[Adventuredad]

Sorry about that and thanks to LecheMiami for answering. I missed writing "ISOFIX"