Any seats that can be used over 40 lbs in Switzerland?

[emandbri]

A friend of mine is moving there next year. She has a 5 year old who she wants to keep harnessed.

Thanks!

 

[ketchupqueen]

Re: Any seats that can be used over 40 lbs in swisserland?

Switzerland is in the EU. She should look at Swedish seats. I know several rf to 55 lbs. and at least one harnesses to that weight ff.

 

[emandbri]

Re: Any seats that can be used over 40 lbs in swisserland?

She says they aren't in the EU.

 

[ketchupqueen]

Re: Any seats that can be used over 40 lbs in swisserland?

My mistake; they are in Europe.

They should still be able to use EU approved seats. Have get look at carseat.se.

 

[Adventuredad]

Currently the only seat in Europe with a harness limit of 55 lbs FF is Britax Two-Way. It does RF and FF to 55 lbs. It has a quite tall seat shell with rear facing/forward facing time to around age 6 or a height of 125-130 cm.

Keeping a 5-year old harnessed is not any safer, unless child is special needs, but it's preferred by some parents.

 

[Baylor]

I'm just surprised that they don't have higher weight harnesses overseas. This really astounds me.
I know the data says its no safer after a certain age however I wonder if there will be more data with the hwh seats that are now on market.

Right now if I was overseas my 4 yr old would HAVE to booster.

auto correct hates me

 

[newyorkDOC]

It's bc of the neck loads thing.
Also we have shield seats which I think go to 55 lbs (not sure though bc I have never researched them).

 

[Baylor]

It's bc of the neck loads thing.
Also we have shield seats which I think go to 55 lbs (not sure though bc I have never researched them).

I know the neck loads however. Ask an American tech here and they will tell you to harness longer than 4.

My point is that people with larger children than normal, like mine, have no options but to booster.

auto correct hates me

 

[bubbaray]

Ask an American tech here and they will tell you to harness longer than 4.

I would not tell a parent in Europe that, if they had ERFd to age 4-5 like they do in Sweden. I would be absolutely fine with a European parent going directly from RFg to booster.

It is pretty hard to argue with the Swedish stats, especially if the family is in Europe, won't have to illegally import a seat, is driving a European spec'd car etc.

The issue that North American techs have is directly translating the Swedish experience to our roads, cars, driving style, and restraints here. But, no, I do not agree with your statement for a family IN Europe. I absolutely would encourage the family to ERF to 4-5 then directly booster.

JMHO

 

[newyorkDOC]

Yeah but then you get into the whole discussion of driving styles, quality of roads, difference between European and American kids, etc. There are just too many factors to take into consideration.

Then of course, you consider the Swedish history of not HWH and low collision-related-death rates and add ask yourself why that is (I'm not asking... it's just rhetorical).

My DD will move to a booster at 4 (I'm in Italy), but I know she will be mature enough (could probably actually move her now but I refuse to FF her until 4). She doesn't slouch, sleep, reach for stuff, etc... and she is paranoid about her car seat so I know she will sit properly in her booster. And I have a TWE so theoretically I could keep her in a HWH for much longer (either RF or FF).

The bottom line is that most of the car seat manufacturers in Europe have not tested HWH beyond 18kg. Look at Graco - they sell the Nautilus on both sides of the ocean but the EU one only permits HWH to 18 kg regardless. Could be a cost factor, could be a marketing issue, who knows? Obviously they don't think it's worth the effort so the consumer market has no choice (other than the TWE which most people don't even know about). But if, like you say, you have larger kids and you really care about car seat usage, then you do your research and you learn about Swedish seats.

 

[FrauDrA]

I'm just surprised that they don't have higher weight harnesses overseas. This really astounds me.
I know the data says its no safer after a certain age however I wonder if there will be more data with the hwh seats that are now on market.

Right now if I was overseas my 4 yr old would HAVE to booster.

auto correct hates me

The lovely Storchenmühle seat (Recaro in different clothes) that we bought for our oldest for while visiting ILs can no longer be used by #1. #2 is still RF (he'll be 3 in November), so the seat isn't appropriate for him, either. At least our nephew has been able to enjoy it.

 

[LISmama810]

It's not that the data shows they're equally safe--it's that there is no data to show that either is dangerous. (Except for the top-secret Swedish data that no one can find/share/release.) There's a big difference.

As an American tech, I have ZERO problem boostering a 4-year-old who fits properly and is mature enough to sit properly. It's just pretty rare to find a 4-year-old with that kind of self control. Maybe American kids just suck.

It's also quite possible that a harness is truly safer to a certain point, or that a booster is. Until we know for sure, it's all conjecture.

 

[Adventuredad]

Ask an American tech here and they will tell you to harness longer than 4.

That doesn't mean it's any safer. I think most techs do a nice job and really care about helping other parents. A few on this forum show on a daily basis that they have a very nice understanding of car seat safety. Keep in mind that attending a short course, hearing some basics and learning to install some seats does not make anyone an expert on car seats or kids.

Most techs still believe front seat with deactivated airbag is a death trap, middle rear is much safer and harnessed seats are far safer than booster seats. Shows that most don't know nearly as much as they believe. But they do care about helping others and I think that's worth a lot.

It's not that the data shows they're equally safe--it's that there is no data to show that either is dangerous.

Boosters are just as safe as harnessed seats. Here in Sweden we consider them safer mostly due to all our experience in focusing so much on car seat safety since 1965.

The two are similar in safety but boosters also offer some other advantages. They are far cheaper, much easier to install, less likely to be misused and are also easy to move between vehicles. This means parents are more likely to use a car seat in the first place and easier use is always good. If parents can achieve the same protection spending $75 instead of $200 it will be good for kids.

Overall I find the great focus on booster vs. harness a bit unnecessary. The two are both good at protecting older kids forward facing. If parents placed the same kind of focus on rear facing longer time as they do on the harness/booster discussions our kids would be far safer.

Someone mentioned research, testing and information which isn't released. There is lots of very useful information which never is made public for various reasons. When experts get together and talk about "unofficial" findings and experiences amazing data is shared.

I have the privilege of being invited to many of these occasions. It's often a whole day in a crash lab where experts from all kinds of areas get together to do some specific testing or discuss a certain area. Car manufacturers, researchers, car seat manufacturers, buckle experts, lab staff, etc. all share things they have learned during the past 30 years and other research.

Car manufacturers and car seat manufactures do lots of private testing and abuse their products in many different ways. It's very educational but often not a good idea to release to the public.

I once invited a friend who is crazy interested in car seats. She spent a day in the crash lab with us and said she learned more in that day than during the past ten years.

 

[Baylor]

That doesn't mean it's any safer. I think most techs do a nice job and really care about helping other parents. A few on this forum show on a daily basis that they have a very nice understanding of car seat safety. Keep in mind that attending a short course, hearing some basics and learning to install some seats does not make anyone an expert on car seats or kids.

Most techs still believe front seat with deactivated airbag is a death trap, middle rear is much safer and harnessed seats are far safer than booster seats. Shows that most don't know nearly as much as they believe. But they do care about helping others and I think that's worth a lot.

Boosters are just as safe as harnessed seats. Here in Sweden we consider them safer mostly due to all our experience in focusing so much on car seat safety since 1965.

The two are similar in safety but boosters also offer some other advantages. They are far cheaper, much easier to install, less likely to be misused and are also easy to move between vehicles. This means parents are more likely to use a car seat in the first place and easier use is always good. If parents can achieve the same protection spending $75 instead of $200 it will be good for kids.

Overall I find the great focus on booster vs. harness a bit unnecessary. The two are both good at protecting older kids forward facing. If parents placed the same kind of focus on rear facing longer time as they do on the harness/booster discussions our kids would be far safer.

Someone mentioned research, testing and information which isn't released. There is lots of very useful information which never is made public for various reasons. When experts get together and talk about "unofficial" findings and experiences amazing data is shared.

I have the privilege of being invited to many of these occasions. It's often a whole day in a crash lab where experts from all kinds of areas get together to do some specific testing or discuss a certain area. Car manufacturers, researchers, car seat manufacturers, buckle experts, lab staff, etc. all share things they have learned during the past 30 years and other research.

Car manufacturers and car seat manufactures do lots of private testing and abuse their products in many different ways. It's very educational but often not a good idea to release to the public.

I once invited a friend who is crazy interested in car seats. She spent a day in the crash lab with us and said she learned more in that day than during the past ten years.

I don't believe that boosters are as safe as harnessed seats period until that child is old enough and capable to sit correctly and has a proper fit. If we are talking 55 lb 8 yr olds I agree. I did not used to but I do now. I've learned a lot here and have adjusted my
Thinking.
My concern is for younger larger kids. And I am not arguing. I was just pondering why there was no options above 55 lbs.
As for the comments directed at techs, my first feeling is to defend them as a whole here. I've seen techs talk about being okay with children in the front under circumstances. I think that the most of the techs here a great job of weighing information and circumstances and can give great advice even if it is not by the book.

I know that you are an expert in your field and mean no disrespect. Just working through thoughts based on what I've learned.
Thanks for the discussion.

auto correct hates me

 

[bubbaray]

My concern is for younger larger kids. And I am not arguing. I was just pondering why there was no options above 55 lbs.

Probably because statistically they don't have a lot of kids age 4-5 who weigh 55lbs. We even notice a difference between kid sizes in the USA and Canada.

You may not believe that boosters are a safe choice, but we do not have evidence to support your belief. I personally find the Swedish stats compelling, regardless of whether that study exists (tho I would love to read it!).

 

[gigi]

One reason there aren't HWH seats is that there are very few cars in Europe with top tethers and the FF seats often don't have top tethers. So, when faced with no tethers or a booster, I think the safety calculation changes. I would have boostered earlier.

My kid suddenly, in the blink of an eye, at age 5y4m matured enough to sit reliably in a booster. 3 months ago I would have said NO WAY would I booster until 6...but BAM he just clicked. Now he is in a harness in my car, but that is only because I couldn't find a dedicated booster that would work in my car and the Nautilus is more difficult to buckle. He is boostered in our other car and even sleeps in position.

I could be COMPLETELY wrong, but knowing what I do about Switzerland I suspect they have extremely liberal car seat laws (as in I suspect they leave the decision almost wholly to parents).

 

[Baylor]

Probably because statistically they don't have a lot of kids age 4-5 who weigh 55lbs. We even notice a difference between kid sizes in the USA and Canada.

You may not believe that boosters are a safe choice, but we do not have evidence to support your belief. I personally find the Swedish stats compelling, regardless of whether that study exists (tho I would love to read it!).

I'm not saying they are not as safe at a certain age and maturity. I'm saying at 4? I can't believe there is always proper use by child making them less safe.

I have completely changed my views on boosters in the time I've been here. But I do agree with techs that as a rule 4 may be too early for many.

auto correct hates me

 

[henrietta]

Maybe American kids just suck.

No, they don't. We have great kids. If only adults were as great as kids. We all started out as children...and were taught by adults. LOL And corrupted.

 

[LISmama810]

Here's something though.

Even properly sitting adults can fly out of 3-point seatbelts. Side-impact crashes can cause that, as can some frontal impacts when the body is thrown slightly off-center and the belt slides off the shoulder and can't restrain the torso.

It seems to me that in that regard, a 5-point harness would be safer for everyone. Neck loads, etc are another matter, but since we don't have DATA, we're back to guessing.

Does that mean that kids should be in harnesses until 18? No, just like they shouldn't be rear-facing until 18. At some point it becomes impractical and unreasonable, even if it IS safer.

For a long time, techs here were gung-ho on harnessing as long as possible. Then there was a shift to, "They're both equally safe" or "One's not safer than the other."

The reality is we have no idea. I suspect that boosters might be safer in some regards and harnesses might be safer in others. My money is actually on the harness, but that my 8-year-old isn't in one. (You better believe my 4-year-old will be, though.)

 

[bubbaray]

See I think we do have some data: we know the Swedish stats and we know that virtually all race car drivers no longer wear only 5pt harnesses due to HE/neck forces -- HANS devices are required on all the circuits now.

My money is actually on the boosters (due to the HE forces) unless there is a behavior reason not to booster.

ETA. And I moved my kids to boosters at 40lbs which coincided with age 5ish.