Frontier SICT two in a row?

Hi everyone!

This past friday, my four children and I were involved in a moderate automobile accident. My children were uninjured in the accident and I had minor cuts and bruises from the glass and from the side airbag.

My children's seats all need to be replaced though.

Prior, all four children were riding various versions of Britax's Frontier. My 5 yr old was in one of the earliest versions. My 4 yr old was in a newer version. My 3 yr old was also in a newer version. And my 2 yr old was in the Frontier 85.

We will be replacing our seats with Frontier's again. It is very likely that we will be replacing our Dodge Grand Caravan with another Dodge Grand Caravan, or perhaps even the Chrysler Town and Country.

So I see that Britax has JUST released their Frontier 85 SICT! And the very first thing I thought when I saw it was, Holy cow, I could barely fit my regular Frontier's on that 3rd row bench.

Sure enough the SICT is wider by about 4-5" each.

Before I order my replacement seats, it is imperative I find out whether or not anybody has successfully installed two Frontier SICTs in the 3rd row bench of a Dodge Grand Caravan. If not, are there minivans that are wider?

What about a Frontier 85 next to a Frontier 85 SICT? I might end up doing that anyways as I would love to buy my only daughter a girly color (and the SICTs don't have that).

Thanks for any help!

Welcome to car-seat I'm glad no one was seriously injured.

Did you have all the Frontiers tethered? That's my first concern when looking for your new van. I believe Dodge/Chrysler vans only have 1 tether anchor in the 3rd row. With 4 kids forward facing (have you considered rear facing your 2 year old?), you really need to have at least 4 usable tether anchors.

I'm not really sure how the Frontiers were installed, to be totally honest. My husband is the "installer" and I had them checked by a CPST at our local DSS office. I know they were not tethered at the top of the vehicle. My husband had them both tethered from the top of the seat somewhere down near the floor. I don't know. I questioned it and brought the van and seats to that CPST and had him inspect it (this was actually just a month ago) and he said it was fine.

Then again, I have had CPSTs that were really not that great. Including one that let us leave the hospital with an improperly installed snugride. Didn't realize it until two weeks later when I lifted up the seat and realized the seat wasn't latching in the back because the vehicles lap shoulder belt had been improperly threaded through the base and was preventing the seat from latching in.

Looking for a new vehicle is a difficult thing. We are a low income family that manages to do pretty well because we budget and make the wisest financial decisions we can, while balancing all of the other important things, like safety.

For example, most families in our income bracket would not be able to afford Frontiers. But...I bought each Frontier, one at a time, during BRUs trade-in event, maximizing the discount as much as possible. I was even able to combine that 25% trade in discount with a tax-free holiday one year. I think the cheapest I paid for a Frontier was right around $175.

That said, there are some things that we cannot swing. An affordable vehicle that is also as safe as possible is a difficult balance.

Likely...we will end up with another Dodge/Chrysler.

And we're ok with that...the new Frontier SICTs do not require top tether, though it is still strongly recommended.

As for my 2 yr old...the kid is a beast. He was on the verge of outgrowing by weight his Alpha Omega Elite, which he's been RFing in since he outgrew his Graco Snugride.

If any of my kiddos could still RF, it'd be the 3 yr old. He's the smallest, by weight, of the bunch.

Nevertheless, I'm also up against a husband who thinks it's ridiculous and unnecessary to keep them RFing past 2. It's not a battle I'm going to win.

Your carseats weren't installed properly. When using the lower connectors, Britax requires you use the top tether as well. It's what the T in LATCH stands for.

You're here doing your research. May I suggest you install the seats and let us check them, and buy something rear facing for your two year old, maybe the three year old as well (the AOE maxed out at 35 pounds rear facing, there are seats that go to 45 pounds rear facing), and ask your husband to prove to you that rear facing after age two is less safe. When he can't come up with any research proving it, there will be no argument. Only facts.

http://carseatblog.com/5168/why-rear-facing-is-better-your-rf-link-guide/

I'd get a Radian for the two year old, maybe another for the three year old. Then, depending on how heavy your four and five year olds are, I'd look at Evenflo Maestros, Graco Nautilus, Recaro ProSport, and Britax Frontiers. I don't think the SICT is worth the additional money (there are no side impact standards). And any carseat passes the same testing. So if funds are tight, buy something less expensive and know that your kids are still very safe. Safer, in fact, since you'll have us check your installs and they'll actually be installed properly.

Wendy

I had suspected that those two rear Frontiers were not installed the way they are supposed to be. But, be it as it may, we have to make do the best that we can.

As for other seats...turning around RFing any of our four is just not going to be an option. My husband is bullheaded and it's not an argument I'm going to win.

And, I feel ok with the youngest two being FF at this age. I mean, it would be great if all of them could stay RFing for as long as is feasible, but for us, RFing at this stage is just no longer feasible.

In regards to other seats...the problem we're up against now is that we don't have any way to get our kids to the stores to try other seats. When I researched extended harnessing convertibles for my oldest two, I gave great consideration to the Nautilus and to the Radian.

In the end though, the crotch strap on the Nautilus did not have enough room left for my children to grow (they were already nearly on top of it at the furthest setting) and there were not any local retailers selling the Radian.

So...that leaves us with the Frontier. And again, we are most likely going to purchase four new Frontier 85s. I just need to know if the SICTs can fit side by side in the 3rd row of a Dodge minivan.

As for why I like the SICT over the regular 85...besides the additional side-impact protection, I really like that the seat cover is easily removed without having to pull the seat out.

Oh...it's not that my husband thinks RFing after 2 is less safe. He thinks it's uneccessary.

It sounds like they were top tethered...I think there is some confusion as to the word 'top' tether...it doesn't always go to the top of the vehicle...most 'top' tethers go to the back of the seat, the rear deck, cargo area etc. That is where most 'top tether' anchor points are. It's possible one may be been tethered to a non approved anchor point (such as a cargo hook) if there is only one 'official' tether anchor.

She also didn't say they were installed with LATCH. And if they had LATCH in that seating position, there would be a top tether anchor point. So most likely, the seat was installed with a seat belt, and in that case, a top tether is NOT required. Recommended yes, but not required.

I would guess that yes, 2 FR85 SICT seats can fit in the 3rd row of any van. As long as you're not trying to get them side by side (both of them outboard, nothing center). But I haven't been in a Chrysler van for a long time, so that's just a guess.

KaysKidz said:

It sounds like they were top tethered...I think there is some confusion as to the word 'top' tether...it doesn't always go to the top of the vehicle...most 'top' tethers go to the back of the seat, the rear deck, cargo area etc. That is where most 'top tether' anchor points are. It's possible one may be been tethered to a non approved anchor point (such as a cargo hook) if there is only one 'official' tether anchor.

She also didn't say they were installed with LATCH. And if they had LATCH in that seating position, there would be a top tether anchor point. So most likely, the seat was installed with a seat belt, and in that case, a top tether is NOT required. Recommended yes, but not required.

Click to expand...

Yes, this is correct. Honestly, the whole installation thing is very confusing to me as far as the terms and whatnot go. Which is why I've always had my husband install them.

I know that the seats were anchored from the top of the seat to points on the bottom of the bench. My husband says, "I anchored them to the bolts that anchor the bench to the van."

Regarding LATCH, he said that the two seats in Captain's chairs were installed with LATCH and tethered. He said that one seat in the 3rd row was installed with LATCH and tethered to the correct anchor point...and that the seat installed with the seatbelt was the one tethered to the unapproved anchor point.

Confusing.

But basically, I need to fit four long-term harnessing seats in a minivan, probably a Dodge or Chrysler and definitely American-made (not for any feel-good reasons, just that our new van will be with us for years to come and we'd rather not have to pay through the nose for expensive replacement parts when the time comes for repairs).

Again, the Radian is an option, but only if I can try my kids in them. And as we have no seats to transport the kids to a store, we can't really try out a new brand right now. Plus, I heard some folks had the same problem with the Radian that we had with the Nautilus concerning the crotch buckle not having enough growth room.

Right now I'm hedging towards an 85 in pink for my daughter and three SICTs for my boys. I think I can fit an 85 next to a SICT on that 3rd row bench. The captain's chairs in the middle are not an issue.

If you have a Buy Buy Baby near you, they carry the Radian.

As for the American made minivans vs. say, a Toyota or Honda, from my experience, you would probably have way less repair issues with a Toyota or Honda than an American made van, not to mention better resale value. My late parents had a Toyota Sienna (which my brother now has) as does my friend and they have had zero issues with them, only having to take them in for routine maintenance. My sister in law on the other hand, has a Dodge or Chrysler, and she has had a lot of work done on hers. My DH and I tried to talk her into a Sienna, but her DH insists on American made and she is now regretting it. Honda also has better crash test ratings and like others have mentioned, tether anchors for your seats.

Just wanted to say welcome and glad that nobody was hurt in the wreck! Good luck and have fun car seat shopping

What about 2 Frontier SICT's for the outboard spots and one of the regular Frontier 85's for the center spot?? No use of paying more the the SICT version for a center spot. That might just give you enough room to fit the 3 across too. Plus the SICT's do not require the top tether so only the reg. version Frontier would need the top tether. :twocents:

That would also make it possible to get the girly cover you want.

Thanks everyone for commenting.

We looked at some different minivans online, pricing them out and whatnot and getting a Honda is really not affordable for us. Yes, it won't likely need as much work, but when it does, not only are the parts a boatload more money, but, my husband has no experience working on foreign makes. Which means it would have to go to the shop...and that's even more money.

Plus...the initial cost is a bit higher too.

So that's not an option.

We're not actually looking to fit three in a row anywhere. We had two captains chairs in the middle row and we sat two seats side-by-side on the back bench (3rd row) in our Dodge minivan.

Which is what we'll be doing again.

I think we're just going to buy a regular 85 in pink for my daughter and then the three boys will get SICTs. A lot will depend on cost and how much the insurance company will adjust (and whether I can get them to adjust for shipping).

Thanks again, everyone!

Personally I think the scit is just a marketing thing. No one is sitting next to these seats so why do you need the extra sip they offer at a huge $ mark up? I think getting two maestro's or Nautilus then two frontiers is a better choice. By the time your younger ones outgrow those seats you can then get your older children dedicated boosters. I lean towards the Nautilus since we know it does well without a top tether and most vans only have 3 top tether points. I see no purpose in getting 4 frontiers when other seats work just as well Ans the frontiers can be passed down.

If your looking at minivans I would recommend looking at the Kia Sedona. We originally wanted a Honda or Toyota but we just couldn't afford it. I like the Caravans/T&C a lot but the 1 rear tether in the 3rd row just wasn't going to work for me SO we finally looked at the Sedona and WOW its great Its very car seat friendly, I can get 3 across my 3rd row no problem and our van has 88K miles on it and no issues!

firemom, thanks for suggesting the Sedona...we will definitely look into them!

Steph, the Nautilus didn't fit my children properly when we tested them back when we initially researched extended harnessing seats. That crotch strap just doesn't come far enough forward! If they were to update their seats and add an extra crotch strap setting, we'd have been fine with the Nautilus.

The SICT aspect of the new Frontier is nice and all, but really, what I'm keen on is the easily removed cover. I know that sounds silly to pay extra for a removeable cover, but I'm not seeing that much price difference between the SICT and the regular 85. Retail is an extra $40 but combined with sales, etc., I think I can get a SICT pretty close in price to a regular 85. We'll see though. If not, than perhaps I will go with the regular 85.

Hopefully today I'll hear from the insurance company on the carseat aspect of the settlement. Kind of need to get those ordered soon!

What Year was your crashed Caravan?

Honey, it was a 2008 Dodge Grand Caravan SXT.

I just got the word from the damage appraiser that they want to fix the van, not total it. :-( I'm going to fight it tooth and nail. So far he's counted up over $9,000 worth of damages. But, he never put it up on the lift to look underneath. And, the van has been sitting with a smashed front driver's window since Friday in the rain.

The whole thing makes me feel sick. I hope they don't fight me on replacing those seats.

Late to the party but I have that same van so here is my :twocents:

Britax states that their limit for LATCH and Top Tether (TT) is 40lbs. Chrysler states that their limit for LATCH and TT is 48lbs. Therefore AT 40 lbs you MUST discontinue using the LATCH straps on the seats, and use the seat belt for installing the seats. You have to go by the lower of the 2 if they differ. The TT also follows this same weight rule BUT many of us as techs and advocates make the parental decision to use the TT past the weight limit, as the benefits far outweigh the risks of not using it. Even if the TT does fail in a crash, it will fail AFTER it has done its job in reducing forward head excursion.

How much do your children weigh? If *I* were going to put 4 Frontiers in my van, this is how I would do it.

2nd Row, youngest child (or lightest) and second youngest (lightest) using LATCH and TT as long as they are under 40lbs. This allows for the seats to be tipped up for access to the 3rd row as the seat belts aren't being used. This is a feature that has been awesome and I was so glad I read my manual and found out you can do this.

3rd row using the offset LATCH and TT (again as long as the child is UNDER 40lbs), and one on the passenger side using the seat belt LONG BELT PATH INSTALLATION. You will NOT be able to fit 2 regular Frontiers, especially not 2 SICT Frontiers next to each other and leave the 3rd seat open to use for a passenger.

Personally I would invest in the TT retrofit for that last seat that has no TT. The part is between $125-$150 depending on tax, and it is SO much safer than leaving it untethered. I can help you get the info to get a TT retrofitted if you like. It MUST be installed by a mechanic that has the special tools to do so, it cannot be put on with just regular wrenches.

My other suggestion would be to meet with a CPST that is a member here if possible. They tend to have much more knowledge than some of the techs that are just techs because their boss says they have to be. You can find a tech HERE. http://www.car-seat.org/showthread.php?t=59135

Good luck with the insurance company. Remember to get your seats from the crashed van if insurance allows it. You can keep the covers to use as spares on the new seats, or sell if you like. With only $9k in damage, it looks like you will get your van back. I hope that you can be at peace with that if it doesn't turn out the way you would like.

~Amanda