70lb 4year old in a 5 point harness AND seatbelt

PurpleCat · Jan 26, 2011

On my local board someone put forth this situation: She knows a family that has a 4 year old they don't trust to be in a booster but the child is 70lbs. They are putting the child in a GN using the 5 point harness ("secured" by LATCH) and using the seat belt in booster mode.

My friend knows this is wrong and unsafe and is trying to convince the parents too. The parents say that the manual doesn't say NOT to do this and that's their reasoning for using both the harness sand the seat belt.

The parents want concrete proof why it's bad/unsafe to do what they're doing.

I'm in Canada and the Radian 80 isn't here yet so that's not an option. The parents are pretty unlikely to buy a new car seat too, so that's not really an option either.

I was wondering if you ladies/gents would have any links I could pass onto my friend to show this family. They are most likely a lost cause but it's worth trying, right?

LISmama810 · Jan 26, 2011

Other than the fact that it's not allowed (and therefore possibly illegal), I'm not sure how dangerous it actually is. I mean, I'm not advocating for it, certainly, but I don't know if there's any evidence showing that it's harmful, either, presuming the seatbelt fits properly. There is actually a special needs booster, I believe, that does use a harness just for positioning.

I would certainly rather see the kid in a properly used seat, but I'm not in Canada, so hopefully someone else knows of other options.

carseatcoach · Jan 26, 2011

I'm pretty sure the manual does say to remove the harness when using in booster mode, but don't have one handy to check right now.

LISmama810 · Jan 26, 2011

chickabiddy said:
I'm pretty sure the manual does say to remove the harness when using in booster mode, but don't have one handy to check right now.

I'm 99% sure you're correct about that.

Kat_Momof3 · Jan 26, 2011

any combo seat manual will instruct to remove/store the harness and use the seatbelt to restrain the child.

I would rather see them import a US seat and use it illegally than do something that has not passed testing anywhere.

TechnoGranola · Jan 26, 2011

PurpleCat said:
I'm in Canada and the Radian 80 isn't here yet so that's not an option.

I'm no help to your actual question but I wanted to address this statement. You said "yet" implying it may come. CMVSS does not allow harnessed seats past 65# (that is FF *or* RF). So, the Radian will not be here with an 80# limit.

I actually think that our Radian Premier and Radian XT are the Radian 80 and Radian XTSL, but without the 80# limit. Meaning that they have been tested to 80# in the U.S. I'm not sure if there is a way to find out if the seats are identical (don't ask Russ!

), but if they were, they could make a parental decision to use a Canadian Radian to the 80# U.S. limit. If there is no way to find out if the seats are identical, then they could import a seat from the U.S. The advantage to having the Canadian one is that it has the proper Canadian stickers if they were stopped. Doubtful anyone would ask how much the child actually weighs (and a parent could just fudge that # anyway). But blatant misuse with U.S. stickers can be harder to hide. Then again, if they live some place where these kinds of things are never checked, then it doesn't much matter if they have a U.S. seat.

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PurpleCat · Jan 26, 2011

LISmama810 said:
Other than the fact that it's not allowed (and therefore possibly illegal), I'm not sure how dangerous it actually is. I mean, I'm not advocating for it, certainly, but I don't know if there's any evidence showing that it's harmful, either, presuming the seatbelt fits properly. There is actually a special needs booster, I believe, that does use a harness just for positioning.

I would certainly rather see the kid in a properly used seat, but I'm not in Canada, so hopefully someone else knows of other options.

Not sure about the USA, but here, the harness is only to be used up to 65lbs and LATCH is up to 48lbs. This child is over the limits of both. Those you can find concrete proof that it's dangerous.

PurpleCat · Jan 26, 2011

TechnoGranola said:
I'm no help to your actual question but I wanted to address this statement. You said "yet" implying it may come. CMVSS does not allow harnessed seats past 65# (that is FF *or* RF). So, the Radian will not be here with an 80# limit.

I actually think that our Radian Premier and Radian XT are the Radian 80 and Radian XTSL, but without the 80# limit.

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Oh right. Forgot about that.

LISmama810 · Jan 26, 2011

PurpleCat said:
Not sure about the USA, but here, the harness is only to be used up to 65lbs and LATCH is up to 48lbs. This child is over the limits of both. Those you can find concrete proof that it's dangerous.

But if I understand correctly, the harness is just positioning the child, and the seatbelt is doing the actual restraining (in a crash or whatever). Unless I'm misunderstanding.

Also, here the Nautilus (and some other seats) allow LATCH in booster mode past the typical limits because, again, it's the seatbelt holding the weight of the child.

Now, I suppose in this case, since the harness is being used too, LATCH would be taking on the weight of the kid, but if it were to fail, the seatbelt would still be there.

I'm not saying it's safe. I have no idea. I'm just saying it bothers me less than other kinds of blatant misuse.

Again, I'm NOT giving my blessing, but I don't know enough about other options.

TechnoGranola · Jan 26, 2011

PurpleCat said:
Not sure about the USA, but here, the harness is only to be used up to 65lbs and LATCH is up to 48lbs. This child is over the limits of both. Those you can find concrete proof that it's dangerous.

They are basically using it as a booster (and the seat *can* be latched in booster mode, although not for the safety of the child, but for the safety of other occupants when the seat is not in use). They think that the seat belt is what's holding the child in, and the harness is just keeping him from moving out of position in the seat. The harness won't be doing the work in a crash, the seat belt will. From a parent's perspective, I can see why they think this is okay.

I think the problem arises that this isn't tested and we don't know what will happen. Will the child hit the harness first, the harness fails and then the seat belt takes over? Will the seat belt actually have locked? or will it not lock due to the harness taking up a lot of the force and there not being enough force to lock the belt? and then when the harness fails because the child is over weight, the seat belt has not done its job either?

I suspect the seat belt will still lock and protect the child as if he was in a booster, but I would never bet my child's life on that.

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PurpleCat · Jan 26, 2011

YES! Technogranola that's exactly what she's trying to convey to the parents - you don't know what will happen so why risk it? We were wondering that too how it would work using both. :shrug:

So I guess it really is a lost cause to convince the parents that they're using their 4 year old as a crash test dummy?

Jennifer mom to my 7 · Jan 26, 2011

chickabiddy said:
I'm pretty sure the manual does say to remove the harness when using in booster mode, but don't have one handy to check right now.

I tried this argument with my brother when he told me he was doing the same thing, and that the technician told him to (his dd was above 40 in a 40 pound seat, just under 4 years old). I told him, but the instructions state to remove the harness for use in booster mode, so that means you cannot use the harness in booster mode. He told me he didn't think that that is what they mean by those instructions

LISmama810 said:
But if I understand correctly, the harness is just positioning the child, and the seatbelt is doing the actual restraining (in a crash or whatever). Unless I'm misunderstanding.

Also, here the Nautilus (and some other seats) allow LATCH in booster mode past the typical limits because, again, it's the seatbelt holding the weight of the child.

Now, I suppose in this case, since the harness is being used too, LATCH would be taking on the weight of the kid, but if it were to fail, the seatbelt would still be there.

I'm not saying it's safe. I have no idea. I'm just saying it bothers me less than other kinds of blatant misuse.

Again, I'm NOT giving my blessing, but I don't know enough about other options.

My husband also seems to think that this would be the lesser of 2 evils, so to speak. Not sure which way to go, and also agree, wouldn't want to use my kid as the crash test dummy for this theory.

mommycat · Jan 26, 2011

I am not comfortable with that setup. Yes, one can reason out that it might be safe. But because it sounds reasonable does not mean that it actually is safe. All the issues Techno raised are a worry. Also, would the whole setup be too stiff with both belt and harness sharing the load if they both work to restrain the child, thus increasing neck loads, etc? The manual contains the instructions for safe operation - if the manual doesn't say TO do it, that means you are supposed to NOT do it.

Unfortunately the only legal options to harness the child in Canada would be to get a special needs seat or a vest and both would need a prescription. We are able to get the Traveller Plus or the EZ-On vest. I am almost sure that this is it for LEGAL and tested options, aside from trying to get approval to import a foreign seat, which I hear is awfully hard to get.

Have they tried putting him in booster mode and just locking the seatbelt? It sounds though like he may need more than that.

If the prescription route is not being considered, I would personally be more comfortable with getting a US seat like the Radian80 and using it to the stated limits illegally than with rigging up a non-approved, probably untested, solution as they have.

PurpleCat · Jan 26, 2011

mommycat said:
I am not comfortable with that setup. Yes, one can reason out that it might be safe. But because it sounds reasonable does not mean that it actually is safe. All the issues Techno raised are a worry. Also, would the whole setup be too stiff with both belt and harness sharing the load if they both work to restrain the child, thus increasing neck loads, etc? The manual contains the instructions for safe operation - if the manual doesn't say TO do it, that means you are supposed to NOT do it.

Unfortunately the only legal options to harness the child in Canada would be to get a special needs seat or a vest and both would need a prescription. We are able to get the Traveller Plus or the EZ-On vest. I am almost sure that this is it for LEGAL and tested options, aside from trying to get approval to import a foreign seat, which I hear is awfully hard to get.

Have they tried putting him in booster mode and just locking the seatbelt? It sounds though like he may need more than that.

If the prescription route is not being considered, I would personally be more comfortable with getting a US seat like the Radian80 and using it to the stated limits illegally than with rigging up a non-approved, probably untested, solution as they have.

I have no idea what they've tried/haven't tried or what difficulties they're actually having. I'll put forth the idea of seeing if the parents would be willing to go those legal routes and ask if they've locked the seat belt. Thanks.

Pixels · Jan 26, 2011

PurpleCat said:
My friend knows this is wrong and unsafe and is trying to convince the parents too. The parents say that the manual doesn't say NOT to do this and that's their reasoning for using both the harness sand the seat belt. The parents want concrete proof why it's bad/unsafe to do what they're doing.

I'll bet the manual doesn't say NOT to use bungee cords to secure the seat, either. Nor will it say not to strap the seat to the roof rack. If it doesn't say that you CAN do it, you can't.

Have the parents contact Graco and ask if it's safe or not.

amyd · Jan 26, 2011

I personally would be more comfortable with the parents using a seat like a Radian Premier or XT or a Frontier that we know is at least tested to 80lbs in the US rather than one that has 65lb limits in both countries. Total misuse of the Nautilus makes me rather uncomfortable. The only route that we know for sure is safe AND legal, though, is the special needs route that Cat mentioned. I understand that this may prove difficult and expensive for the family, though. Is there a medical reason why the child is so large at such a young age? If so, perhaps the child's pediatrician could be contacted regarding writing a script for a special needs seat (private medical insurance may pick up some of the tab as well).

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QuassEE · Jan 26, 2011

With regards to harnessing a child and using a seat in booster mode--I have one major concern that should make it obvious why this is a bad idea. If a child is restrained by the harness AND the seat is installed, this could slow acceleration against the seatbelt/of the seatbelt out of the retractor...? Meaning the emergency lock isn't engaging when it should, potentially risking greater injuries to the child? But then, an out of position child is also at risk.

I'm thinking this child is obese? This may be justification for a special needs seat.

-Nicole.

safeinthecar · Jan 26, 2011

Here are some possibilities.

Seat installed with LATCH, child harnessed, seat belt over child.

* Child will load the harness first. The LATCH hardware breaks, Seatbelt takes load and locks, BUT, the whole unit slides forward rather than the child bending at the waist and loading the shoulder belt first, which in turn takes slack out of the lap portion of the belt. The child's lower body is not held back far enough and the whole unit slides right off the end of the vehicle seat.

*The added weight of the Nauti causes the child to impact the seat belt with much more force than normal and causes internal injuries.

* The LATCH hardware holds, but the harness rips out of the shell. Broken pieces of sharp plastic are driven into the child's back.

*Nothing breaks, however, ride down time is either sped up or drawn out. Speeding up the ride down time can result in internal injuries because his body stops too fast and leaves his organs banging around inside him. Slowing down the ride down time results in him not stopping his forward momentum fast enough and hitting the front seats.

Keeanh · Jan 26, 2011

Personally, I would buy a Frontier 85 from the US. Or an RSTV. So maybe I get a ticket (highly doubtful). Oh well.

ETA: I didn't know we had the ez-on vest in Canada. Neat. Yeah, that's a good idea.

mommycat · Jan 27, 2011

Perry Rand in Cambridge, NS carries the EZ-On. It is a prescription item, though.
www.thebusboys.com

Ontario Gov't website has this info in their FAQ:
http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/faq/safety.shtml

How would I transport a child with special needs?
If your child has a special need (such as a medical condition that does not allow your child to use a conventional child car seat), you may choose to use an alternativee child restraint system that complies with federal safety standards. These restraints would meet federal standards for governing alternate restraints for children with special needs (i.e., CMVSS 213.3 and 213.5). For more information, please visit: http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/SOR-98-159/.

What are some types of special needs restraints?
Car beds/restraints for premature/low-birth weight infants: Infants who were born at less than 37 weeks gestation or who weigh less than 2500 g (about 5.5 lbs) may now travel in a car bed if unable to use a conventional rear-facing child car seat. Car beds are available through Equipment Loan Programs – speak with your health care provider.

Snug Seat Hippo: This is a paediatric product and is used by children requiring casts.

EZ-On Vest: These safety vests are designed for children with poor trunk control, certain casts and children diagnosed with a developmental disability. The child must be at least 2 years of age and weigh between 9 and 76 kg (20-168 lbs.).
Modified EZ-On Vest – This safety vest is designed for children who must travel lying down (e.g., certain casts). These vests are designed for children 2 to 12 years of age who weigh between 9 and 45 kg (20-100 lbs.).

How can I get these restraints?
Cosco Dream Ride Infant Car Seat/Bed (restraint for premature/low-birth weight infants); Britax Child Safety, Inc.; Snug Seat (Snug Seat Hippo); Dorel Distribution Canada; EZ-ON Products Inc. and Perry Rand Limited Transportation Group (EZ-On Vest); The Motion Group, and SOS Rehabilitation are just some of the manufacturers of these special restraint systems. Speak to your child’s health care provider, physiotherapist or occupational therapist. He/she should be able to provide you with the information you need.

How would I learn to use these types of restraints?
Speak to your child’s occupational/physiotherapist therapist or other health care provider. He/she would be able to provide you with the information you need.

70lb 4year old in a 5 point harness AND seatbelt

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