European seats ???

Shaggy · Aug 6, 2010

I was planning to buy a Britax Frontier for my almost four year old, but we just found out that we are moving to Germany. Does anyone know how European seats compare to American ones in terms of quality/safety? I'm sure there's no technical data to do a direct comparison, but I wonder if anyone had any experience or pearls of wisdom to share? Are American seats generally 'considered' *better* than European ones?? I'm trying to decide whether to buy a Britax here or wait and buy a new seat in Germany. I'm assuming the age/height child restraint laws are comparable....?

Many thanks

TerisBoys · Aug 6, 2010

Are you going as military, or otherwise?

QuassEE · Aug 6, 2010

I pulled up the thread to ask the same thing.

If you're military, you can use your Canadian seat while there. Otherwise, if you like the Britax Frontier you can get the Römer version in Germany. Römer is the German Britax.

http://www.britax-roemer.com/car-seats/evolva-123

-Nicole.

TerisBoys · Aug 6, 2010

QuassEE said:
I pulled up the thread to ask the same thing.

If you're military, you can use your Canadian seat while there. Otherwise, if you like the Britax Frontier you can get the Römer version in Germany. Römer is the German Britax.

http://www.britax-roemer.com/car-seats/evolva-123

-Nicole.

The Evolva only harnesses to 18kg though.

QuassEE · Aug 6, 2010

Yeah, true, but it has a decent harness height. I guess it would help to know age/height/weight of the child

I'd be getting a Swedish seat if I was in Europe, personally...but two out of four of my kids were ready for a booster at 40lbs but would've been too tall for the 40lb harness seats here.

-Nicole.

icnee · Aug 6, 2010

I would also get a Swedish rfing seat if it were me going there.

mykidsmylife · Aug 6, 2010

We are in Germany now.. I was going to get my son the Cybex Pallas but passed on it at the last minute.
I have spent a lot of time playing with the European seats and there is not a big selection. If you son is skinny and on the shorter side AND you don't expect him to hit 39.5lbs until age 5, then you could get the Evolva or the Storchenmuehle Starlight (Recaro young sport).

http://www.storchenmuehle.de/index.php?id=30&L=4

However if you want to get him to a safe boostering age and he is average size or bigger then I would HIGHLY recomend you get the Britax Frontier now....

Just know that if you are not military it is illegal for you to use American seats here. That wouldn't stop me, but it is just so you know.

InternationalMama · Aug 6, 2010

At almost all stores in Germany you will only find seats that harness to 18 kg. However, you can legally use the Swedish rear facing seats in Germany since they are EU certified. There are some that are available in stores or showrooms there or you can order them online. Two great online resources for what is available are carseats.se and rearfacing.co.uk.

The Swedish seats are great for extended rear facing and one, the Britax Two-Way, also harnesses past 18 kg forward facing. However, since the Swedes like the rest of Europe move to boosters young there is *very* little available anywhere that harnesses past 18 kg forward facing. In addition to the Two-Way there are also a few special needs seats and a few other options that are nearing expiration or discontinued.

If you want a legal seat to use in Germany that you can get easily (through carseat.se) and your LO is over 18 kg I'd look at the Two-Way Elite. However, it is significantly more expensive than your American options so a lot of people do chose to import from the US and use those seats illegally.

Just FYI, the Evolva 1-2-3 is not exactly like the Frontier.

Like the PP said, it only FFs to 18kg, as does the Mult-Tech, which is an ERF seat with the same shell. For what it is worth, the Evolva 1-2-3 also doesn't win any awards for performance. If your LO is under 18kg and you want to get a legal EU FF seat and then move to a harness at that weight I'd be looking at the Recaro Young Sport, for example, over the Evolva.

Adventuredad · Aug 7, 2010

Britax Two-Way doe offer rear facing and forward facing until 25 kg, forward facing can be with harness or seat belt. It's the only seat inn Europe offering harnessing FF to 25 kg. Your child could surely stay RF in a Two-Way which can handle Rf to abut 6 years or 125 cm (50 inches).

You mention your child is "about to turn 4", does that mean next week or in 6 months? Using a high back booster for older children, 4 and up, is just as safe as keeping them harnessed.

Weight has very little to do with safety, if you child is very short it could be a problem finding god belt fit in a high back booster.

Evolvia is an ok high back booster with harnessing to 18 kg. It's a bit heavy for being used as a dedicated high back booster though.

Do you have Isofix in your car?

InternationalMama · Aug 7, 2010

Adventuredad said:
It's the only seat inn Europe offering harnessing FF to 25 kg.

Adventure Dad, you say this over and over again and I correct you over and over again and yet you still persist in saying it. This is simply not true. There are other seats available in Europe that harness FF to that weight. What I said n my comment is what is true: "In addition to the Two-Way there are also a few special needs seats and a few other options that are nearing expiration or discontinued."

To tell people that it is the *only* seat that harnesses to that weight when last time I checked you could buy a seat in Germany, where the OP is moving, that also harnesses FF to that weight and only costs 80 Euros is just misleading. Not that I would recommend that seat since they are all nearing expiration now, but there are other options out there.

ETA: To say that the Two-Way is the best/most appropriate seat available in Europe that harnesses FF to 25kg would be true. To say that it is the only is just not true.

lenats31 · Aug 7, 2010

InternationalMama said:
Adventure Dad, you say this over and over again and I correct you over and over again and yet you still persist in saying it. This is simply not true. There are other seats available in Europe that harness FF to that weight. What I said n my comment is what is true: "In addition to the Two-Way there are also a few special needs seats and a few other options that are nearing expiration or discontinued."

To tell people that it is the *only* seat that harnesses to that weight when last time I checked you could buy a seat in Germany, where the OP is moving, that also harnesses FF to that weight and only costs 80 Euros is just misleading. Not that I would recommend that seat since they are all nearing expiration now, but there are other options out there.

ETA: To say that the Two-Way is the best/most appropriate seat available in Europe that harnesses FF to 25kg would be true. To say that it is the only is just not true.

What seats are they?

Lena

lenats31 · Aug 7, 2010

The Swedish seats are great for extended rear facing and one, the Britax Two-Way, also harnesses past 18 kg forward facing. However, since the Swedes like the rest of Europe move to boosters young there is *very* little available anywhere that harnesses past 18 kg forward facing. In addition to the Two-Way there are also a few special needs seats and a few other options that are nearing expiration or discontinued.

Special needs seats aren´t readily available in stores to say the least, nor are they cheap. In fact these are VERY exspensive seats. We are talking no less than 1400 USD shipping not incl. They are hard to come by. There are two available at the In Car Safety Centre in the UK, but I highly doubt they´ll send seats to mainland Europe, and they are EXSPENSIVE!

Lena

InternationalMama · Aug 7, 2010

The 80 Euro seat that harnesses to 25kg is made by Concord. I can't remember the exact name at the moment, but there was a thread about it awhile ago. They were last made in 2005 or so, I think, so they have not expired yet. You can still buy them online last I checked.

I was also thinking of the special needs seats from incarsafetycentre. Yes, they are more expensive than the Two-Way, but they exist and are EU certified and harness past 18kg so it is worth mentioning them rather than simply deciding for the OP that they aren't what he or she wants. They are not 1400 USD either, I'm not sure where you got that idea. The Recaro Start is 744 USD with shipping included within the UK from incarsafetycentre.co.uk. Yes, it's ridiculously expensive, but half the price you are quoting.

I was also thinking in my original post where I mentioned other options of the Britax Vario, which while not a harness acts like a harness rather than a booster and can be used past 18kg. I think they are discontinued now, but I saw one in a store in Germany as recently as last December.

As I said, I agree that the Two-Way is probably the best choice available in Europe for extended forward facing harnessing, but I don't agree in saying that it is the only choice when it is not. The OP should be given all the available options and then chose the one that best fits their situation.

Shaggy · Aug 7, 2010

Thank you all for your advice. I'm really grateful.
Yes I guess I should have said that we are military. We plan on taking one vehicle with us and buying a second one when we get there...which I 'assume' will have isofix. Thinking about it afterwards I figure I probably should get a Frontier here because that would outlast us coming back in 3 years - which is the "usually" tour time in Europe as I understand it.
My DD will be 4 years and 3 months by the time we go next February. She's currently 40" and about 34lb / 15kg.
Switching her to a rear facing position at this point would be a huge challenge I'm not sure I'd want to attempt for my own sanity!! She's been FF a year, but I did want to keep her harnessed as long as possible. From my understanding of what you are all saying, the European seats don't really offer that. I wonder why the newer European models all encourage boostering at a lower weight/younger age....?

finn · Aug 7, 2010

Shaggy said:
I did want to keep her harnessed as long as possible. From my understanding of what you are all saying, the European seats don't really offer that. I wonder why the newer European models all encourage boostering at a lower weight/younger age....?

because they have figured out its just as safe as harnessing? :duck:

Adventuredad · Aug 8, 2010

InternationalMama said:
Adventure Dad, you say this over and over again and I correct you over and over again and yet you still persist in saying it. This is simply not true. There are other seats available in Europe that harness FF to that weight. What I said n my comment is what is true: "In addition to the Two-Way there are also a few special needs seats and a few other options that are nearing expiration or discontinued."

To tell people that it is the *only* seat that harnesses to that weight when last time I checked you could buy a seat in Germany, where the OP is moving, that also harnesses FF to that weight and only costs 80 Euros is just misleading. Not that I would recommend that seat since they are all nearing expiration now, but there are other options out there.

ETA: To say that the Two-Way is the best/most appropriate seat available in Europe that harnesses FF to 25kg would be true. To say that it is the only is just not true.

I don't mention the special needs seats since they are very uncommon. They are also for children with special needs. These seats are rarely available anywhere and are normally special ordered and customized for a child with special needs. They might be an option for the extremely few who have real special needs. A poster who had these special needs would clearly have stated that while asking for advice. The place you mentioned does also not ship anywhere outside UK/Ireland so not an option.

I'm not going to mention a seat such as Concord which has not been made since 2005 (according to you.) A seat should be current or at least sold recently IMHO.

UlrikeDG · Aug 8, 2010

Shaggy said:
Thank you all for your advice. I'm really grateful.
Yes I guess I should have said that we are military.

When we were stationed in Germany, we chose to use US seats. For forward facing, harnessed seats, you have many more options available in the US/Canada. I see no reason to turn a 4 year old back rear facing, but none of my kids have been able to sit still in a booster for long trips until they were 6-8 years old. I prefer higher weight limit harnessed seats for that reason.

I did purchase a German booster (Concord Lift) when my son was 5 or 6, because I liked the ADAC/ÖAMTC side impact testing. We used it in our second vehicle, while he continued to use a Britax Marathon in our primary car until he was 7 years old.

ketchupqueen · Aug 8, 2010

finn said:
because they have figured out its just as safe as harnessing? :duck:

...as long as the child is of an age where the skeleton is more completely developed, and is developmentally ready for a booster, which often does not happen until between 5 1/2 and 6 1/2 (with outliers as early as 4 sometimes, and sometimes as late as 7), this is true.

finn · Aug 8, 2010

ketchupqueen said:
...as long as the child is of an age where the skeleton is more completely developed, and is developmentally ready for a booster, which often does not happen until between 5 1/2 and 6 1/2 (with outliers as early as 4 sometimes, and sometimes as late as 7), this is true.

I just read this study which another member linked too, I found it really interesting, anyway it says "The iliac spines of the pelvis, which are important for good lap belt positioning and for reducing risk of belt load into the abdomen, are not well developed until about 10 years of age (Burdi et al. 1968)". Does that mean we should harness kids until they are 10? :duck:

I also wonder if kids are developmentally ready at different ages depending on what countries they live in?

Here is the link, to me it says rf to 4, there is a big loss in safety if kids are ff'ing in booster before 4, but after that boosters are ok. I would love to see a comparable study done in the USA or Canada.
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd.../05-0330-O.pdf

ketchupqueen · Aug 8, 2010

No, it's not that the bones are fully developed. It's that they're MORE developed. It's not just hips that play a part in this spinal development; it's also the cervical spinal column, the shoulders (ever notice how a 3 year old's shoulders are much rounder than a 4-5 year old's, in general?) and other skeletal developments that make a child much more suited to be able to a) handle the crash forces and b) fit a belt properly.

I think many children CAN be ready at 4, but many are not. It's quite possible that cultural influences come into that. It's also on the parents-- children need to be TAUGHT how to sit properly and I know many American parents don't bother to do that, maybe they do where you live.

The fact is that there is no general rule where you can say "at this age a child is safe in a booster" and it will apply to every single child. We can generalize (which is why I tend to give a range of 4-7, with more typical being 5 1/2 to 6 1/2) but only the parent can really make that decision. My own daughter was DEFINITELY not booster-ready until she was almost 6. I noticed a marked difference in her ability to delay gratification, self-control, and understanding that some things have to be done, even though you don't want to, to keep you safe and acceptance of that fact, among other behavioral traits, around 5 years 9 months. Shortly after she had her first booster ride and did perfectly. I KNEW as a parent when she was ready. Each parent needs to be aware of the factors, that's all, so they can make that decision themselves.

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