Convertible vs Harnessed Booster

I have a 16 month old who weighs about 22lbs and is 29 inches tall. I currently transport her rear facing in a Roundabout 50 in my car. She's outgrown her infant car seat so I need another seat for my wife's car. I tested my Roundabout 50 in my wife's car, as well as some smaller convertibles, and the bottom line is I can't fit any of them rear facing due to size constraints, so we're going to have to go forward facing in that car.

I was going to simply get a convertible for my wife's car and install it forward-facing, but while at the store I noticed something I wasn't previously aware of ... the harnessed booster. The appeal is the potential long lifespan. For example, the Graco Nautilus claims to be capable of using the harness up to 65lbs, which I like, and then carry the child in booster mode to 100 pounds.

Here are my questions:

1) From a safety standpoint, considering that we're going to be forward facing, is there any advantage to a convertible over a harnessed booster style seat? Convertibles seem a bit narrower, so is this a safety advantage for a smaller child?

2) In reading about the Graco Nautilus, I've heard that the crotch strap doesn't offer much room and many children are over the crotch strap, even with it at the furthest position, long before the child hits 65 pounds. Any comments about that?

3) If harnessed boosters are a decent idea, what models are recommended?

Thank you very much in advance for your comments.

Jim

What vehicle will it be installed in? It is very rare to have a vehicle that doesn't fit a RF convertible in the back seat. Were you able to fit an infant seat back there? If so, you'll be able to fit some kind of RF convertible. More info is needed but a FF 16 month old isn't really safe in any situation, regardless of the car seat being used. She also wouldn't fit the requirements for many car seats. Many Dorel/Safety First/Cosco/Eddie Bauer seats have a height requirement of around 34 inches in order to FF. She is super SUPER tiny for her age and she would even still fit in some infant seats on the market.

Hi. Welcome. What car does your wife drive? You don't need the seat reclined to 45º anymore, so you should be able to get something in rear facing. I say this as someone who has successfully put a big Britax rear facing in the backseat of a Porsche 911 and ridden in the front seat in front of it.

At 16 months I'd try very very hard to find *something* to rear face in. I would go for a tethered Nautilus of the options available, but only as a last resort, and I'd use the car as little as possible.

Wendy

What is your wife's vehicle? Have you tried installing it in the middle? You can install convertable at a more upright angle up to 30 degrees so that may get you enough room too. I would really try to try all you options to keep her rear facing longer. You can try one with a seat with smaller shell like a scenera as a last resort if installing it more upright or in the center don't work but I think it should. I wouldn't foward face a child until age 2 at the minimum.

Thank you all for your responses. My wife's car is an infinity G35. I guess I should provide more details about the rear facing problem. I have a Graco Comfortsport that I can fit in the center area, although my Roundabout 50 won't fit there. In installing the Comfortsport there it protrudes forward between the driver and front passenger seats, which I think is fine. The problem, however, is that the center area in the rear has quite a hump and the child seat isn't all that stable. I can cinch it down pretty good, but it's nowhere near as stable as it is on a flatter seat, such as in my Explorer. The other issue is my wife has a bad back and getting our daughter into the seat in the center is pretty tough for her. I've tried to install the seat on either side in the rear, with the seat rear-facing, but I can't even come close to getting it to fit, unless I put it behind the front passenger seat and run that seat as far forward as it goes. If I do that then no adult can fit in that seat. It was pretty tough to even get the infant carrier in that car. I had to place that in the middle, and it stuck forward between the driver and front passenger seats.

wendytthomas, you stated that the seat doesn't need to recline to 45 degrees anymore. That makes sense to me, but the Graco manual states that the seat must be reclined when rear facing. Perhaps they're thinking infact who can't support her own head?

I agree wholeheartedly with anyone who says rear facing is best, and I really want to go that route, but I just haven't figured out the best way to do it yet. That being said, I would also not buy a G35 ever again, for this and other reasons

Right, the 45º is for a newborn without head control. However, the seat has a recline mode, and it must be in the recline mode to be rear facing. It can be installed more upright than 45º, in the recline mode. Does that make sense?

Guaranteed in a midsize sedan you can get either the Comfortsport or the RA50 in the car, behind one of the front seats. Try it by having the seat in the rear facing mode, and when you install it outboard push down to add weight at the baby's feet area. Tighten the belt down. Then see how upright it is. It can go as upright as 30º (if 0º is straight up and down and 90º is laying flat on her back). That should give you plenty of room for either the driver, or a passenger.

Wendy

Would you consider meeting with a good CPST? Many of us are very good at getting RFing seats in small spaces and would be happy to show you some tricks.

I also just wanted to add, that the roundabout 50 manual should state that the angle is good as long as it is between 30 and 45 So, according to britax, 30 is good.

I'm trying very hard to understand how to get the seat upright while in the recline mode. I understand that 45 degrees is no longer necessary (and my little one has one heck of a strong neck), and that 30 degrees is OK. All that being said, I don't see how I can change the angle of the seat that much.

In the G35 I'll have to try outboard again (don't have time tonight) with the Comfortsport. The Comfortsport has a "foot" allowing for two angle positions, one is reclined and the other upright. Again, the manual says recline for RF and upright for FF. Do I understand you correctly that I need to leave it in recline mode, yet try to tighten it down such that it's actually nearer to 30 degrees? There must be a reason I shouldn't put it in upright mode for rear facing ... why is that? I'm skeptical, but you all are so confident this can work that I'll have to give it another try.

In my Ford Explorer I have the RA50 in the center of the rear seat, rear facing. In the recline mode it's actually right at 30 degrees due to the funny angle of the rear seat. In this position I could only fit it in the middle, not outboard, as it would hit the seatback of either seat. And to top it all off, I'm not exactly tall (5'8"). I'm not looking to take the RA50 out of my car, and I prefer the middle anyway, so that's fine.

One more question since you all are so helpful and knowledgeable. On the RA50, in rear facing mode, I can only place the crotch strap in the smallest or middle position, not the largest position, due to the rear facing belt pathway. With my tiny little kid in the seat, and the crotch strap in the middle position, the strap slot in the seat is slightly under her. The Britax manual says it should not be under the child, with no further explanation. If I follow the manual then I would have to place her forward facing in this seat, which I don't want to do. She only weighs 22 pounds. Is this really a problem for the strap slot to be just slightly under her. At this rate there's no way I can keep her rear facing in this seat to 35 pounds, which I find unacceptable. Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks yet again,

Jim

ontarget said:

I'm trying very hard to understand how to get the seat upright while in the recline mode. I understand that 45 degrees is no longer necessary (and my little one has one heck of a strong neck), and that 30 degrees is OK. All that being said, I don't see how I can change the angle of the seat that much.

In the G35 I'll have to try outboard again (don't have time tonight) with the Comfortsport. The Comfortsport has a "foot" allowing for two angle positions, one is reclined and the other upright. Again, the manual says recline for RF and upright for FF. Do I understand you correctly that I need to leave it in recline mode, yet try to tighten it down such that it's actually nearer to 30 degrees? There must be a reason I shouldn't put it in upright mode for rear facing ... why is that? I'm skeptical, but you all are so confident this can work that I'll have to give it another try.

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We're confident. We do this all the time. Put the foot in the rear facing position for the Comfortsport and put the carseat on the backseat. Run the seatbelt through the belt path (or LATCH strap if you're outboard). Buckle it in. Then put one hand at her feet area, practically touching the backseat, and add weight. Then reach next to the buckle and tighten the seatbelt hard. You want to make sure all the slack is out of the lap belt. When you have all of the slack out lock the belt by pulling it all the way out at the shoulder. Don't let it loosen in the meantime. That should get you very upright.

In my Ford Explorer I have the RA50 in the center of the rear seat, rear facing. In the recline mode it's actually right at 30 degrees due to the funny angle of the rear seat. In this position I could only fit it in the middle, not outboard, as it would hit the seatback of either seat. And to top it all off, I'm not exactly tall (5'8"). I'm not looking to take the RA50 out of my car, and I prefer the middle anyway, so that's fine.

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Glad it works out just fine. What year is the Explorer again? You can shove it against the back of the driver's seat, if you'd like. Britax is ok with that. And if you don't have advanced airbags you can shove it (and I mean SHOVE) against the back of the passenger seat as well.

One more question since you all are so helpful and knowledgeable. On the RA50, in rear facing mode, I can only place the crotch strap in the smallest or middle position, not the largest position, due to the rear facing belt pathway. With my tiny little kid in the seat, and the crotch strap in the middle position, the strap slot in the seat is slightly under her. The Britax manual says it should not be under the child, with no further explanation. If I follow the manual then I would have to place her forward facing in this seat, which I don't want to do. She only weighs 22 pounds. Is this really a problem for the strap slot to be just slightly under her. At this rate there's no way I can keep her rear facing in this seat to 35 pounds, which I find unacceptable. Any advice would be appreciated.

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The buckle cannot be under her. However, it's fine if the strap angles out from under her slightly. If she's the X, you want X| or X/, but not X\ or X|.

HTH

Wendy

Wendy is right on target. I am not a certified tech but you can rest assure that the certified techs know what they are talking about. They know what is allowed and what is not and they know tricks to make a seat work in a certain vehicle.
I mainly wanted to reply to your comment about the 35lb weight limit on the RA50. The RA50 is a full size convertible car seat that has more than enough room to accomodate many children to 35lbs. A 40lb weight limit would be unrealistic but a 35lb RF limit is right on target. You have an itty bitty daughter so your tot's size is not the same as average size. My child is on the bigger side so he hit 35lbs at 25 months old and would still have room to grow RF in the RA50. Your child's size is a car seat's dream. She'll likely be able to stay RF in the RA50 to at least 3 yrs old when most are outgrowing it RF around 2.5 yrs old. In other seats,s he'd easily make it to 5 yrs old RF.

I looked at some of the infiniti pics on google and saw the hump you are talking about. Did you check the vehicle manual to make sure you can even install a car seat back there. Some vehicles with humps like that don't allow a child seat to be installed in that position so you should double check if you haven't already. When looking at the pictures on google, I am seeing 2 dr and 4 dr vehicles. Which one does she have? If it is a 4 dr, you should be able to install just about any size convertible in the backseat. I used to have a Dodge Neon and was able to install a Marathon (almost identical to RA50), a True Fit, Recaro como (HUGE seat), and a Graco MyRide all RF in the center position since my son was 7 months old so he needed more of a recline.

If I were you, I'd definitely check out safekids.org and look for a certified tech in your area to help you out with it as well. Most can be very helpful

I just wanted to share my tip for getting a more upright installation.

1. Move the front seat all the way up
2. Make sure the child restraint is in the rear facing recline mode
3. Buckle child restraint in with either latch OR seatbelt.
4. Get in behind the child restraint and using your hips push the CR more up right while at the same time applying pressure to the seat with one hand and tightening with the other
5. Move the front seat back. With Graco I believe the child restraint can touch the front seat but not be braced. With the Britax the front seat can brace the child restraint (as long as you don't have advanced air bags? some one confirm?)
6. If using Britax attach the rear facing tether.

I have our Roundabout 50 in a Jeep Cherokee which has less room in the back seat than most mid size cars. I am able to have it at a 30 degree recline behind the passenger seat and I only have to have the passenger seat moved up one click.

yetanotherjen said:

5. Move the front seat back. With Graco I believe the child restraint can touch the front seat but not be braced. With the Britax the front seat can brace the child restraint (as long as you don't have advanced air bags? some one confirm?)
6. If using Britax attach the rear facing tether.

Click to expand...

Graco can gently touch, Britax can brace barring the car forbidding it.

Wendy

Howdy everyone. After being out of town for a week I'm back working on this carseat project. Taking all of your advise I installed the Comfortsport in the G35 rear facing behind the driver seat. It lightly touches the driver seat, which was stated above to be fine. There may be one problem, however:

With my install the carseat back is at approximately 20 degrees, not 30 degrees like has been mentioned. My intall involves a rolled-up towel under the base at the juncture of the rear seatback and bottom to achieve this angle. Without the towel then the seatback would only be at about 15 degrees.

I did attempt to get it to 30 degrees, which requires a few rolled up towels, but doing so really doesn't fit unless the driver seat is run all the way forward, which means noone is driving the car.

Am I OK at 20 degrees? Attached are a few images.

I'm not a tech, but that angle looks okay to me. Is the car parked on a level surface? Remember that you're measuring where her back goes, not necessarily the angle of the back of the seat. The seat itself looks pretty upright, but her actual seating position looks passable to me. I would wait for someone else to confirm that, though.

Does anyone ride in the passenger seat? If not, it's okay to have it pushed rather far up to fit the child restraint in the seat.

Also, how far back is your wife's seat reclined? You might try scooting the base of her seat back a click or two, but moving the seatback more upright, to increase both the RF angle and your wife's safety. (I learned here that it's safer for adults to ride with our seats more upright, to reduce the risk of *us* submarining.)

Also, if the techs deem that's too upright, and you can't figure out a way to remedy it, we can recommend a number of seats that install more upright and will last longer overall than the ComfortSport. I would be more prone to buy a good ERF convertible that you can use FF, and eventually buy a dedicated booster, than to consider putting her FFing. (Off the top of my head I'd consider the TrueFit or the Complete Air; the MR installs with less front-to-back room than expected but I'm not sure how it would install FFing in that vehicle. The Radian might also get an awesome install due to the sloped-ness of those seats, but it also might not and I would think it would be overkill for your daughter.)

Thank you so much for the pictures!

First things first, that car seat mat NEEDS to go

While some technicians believe there are a few mats that may be ok, that one is DEFINITELY not. It is much too thick, and much too rigid. Thick mats cause an impression of a tight installation when in actuality it is very loose.

As a good rule of thumb, there should be *nothing* between the child restraint and the vehicle seat. If you absolutely must have something, a thin bath towel is sufficient and certainly nothing thicker than that.

Looking at your installation, I'm not seeing a lot of vehicle compression, which leads me to believe that you may not have a tight installation. Take that mat out. Do you have less than 1" of movement side to side and front to back? When the seat is properly installed, it will really be 'buried' in the leather on the seat and the seatback where the child's feet end up.

The angle looks upright to me, but at an acceptable level, but the mat needs to go.

Just wanting to add that if you can fit in behind the carseat while you install, you can push the back of the seat towards the back of the vehicle so that it is also snug into the vehicle seat back, potentially saving you a little bit of space. If you look up the user Defrost here on the board, you will see what I mean from the picture in her avatar. Not having the seat protector will make this work better as well. You can't use the seat at 20 degrees, but it's hard to estimate the angle exactly. I would want the ball to be entirely in the green but touching the red a bit on the side is ok.

Another thing that might give you more room is to have the front seat a bit more upright, leaving more leg room or room for the RF seat. It is safer to be more upright and while it may feel uncomfortable at first while you adjust to it, it only takes a few days to get used to sitting more upright.

I think the driver's seat looks a bit reclined. You could try moving it back a tad, then putting the seat back more upright.

I dug you up a link to seat protectors. Really, they're not needed. Once your seat is out, the marks pop back up pretty quickly. Also, you'll have a seat there forever, so does it really matter that much if there are a few dents in it - is my view

http://carseatblog.com/?p=3275

I don't care for the seat protector, either. However, that being said, the seat is tight. I wrenched the latch belt as tight as I could, while applying a lot of pressure on the car seat. There's nowhere near 1" of movement at the belt pathway, either front to back or side to side. The image I attached is misleading. The reason the seat protector is protruding away from the vehicle seat back is because it's pressed so tightly into the seat back below that area. Nonetheless, I'll gladly remove the seat protector and see what I can do.

Regarding the child seat back angle, I measured it on a level surface using a gravitational inclinometer (an engineering instrument), and the actual recline angle of the portion where the child's back rests is just under 21 degrees. As you can see from the attached image in my last post, the ball is just into the red.

I put my daughter in the seat to see how it looked, and she doesn't "look" that upright and seems comfortable in the seat. However, my inclinometer doesn't lie and the seat is nowhere near 30 degrees of recline. No matter what I do I can't force that seat into a 30 degree position without moving the driver sear further forward.

The driver seat was further rearward and more reclined, but to get the install seen in the images I had to move it forward and more upright. I've gone as far as I can with that seat, keeping in mind that my wife still has to drive the car.

If this install is no good, I think I need to find a different child seat. What do you recommend that might be more compact?

If you're interested, here is a link to the rear facing info page. It's full of great info on why rear facing is safer.

http://carseatblog.com/?p=5168

I'm not sure, I don't think this is included -

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8gU9zzCGA8"]YouTube- Front facing or Rear facing? Car seat safety TRUE STORY crash test videos[/ame]