Question Britax Frontier Use & Boulevard Recline Tech Questions

Dear Car-Seat.org faithful,

I need some help with my son's Boulevard. My wife and I recently bought a new 2010 Honda Odyssey and while re-installing the seat, we noticed that the recline no longer 'clicked' into place when you put the seat in an upright position (we are using it FF). It still "clicks" when it is fully reclined, but given the nature of the Odyssey seats I would like to get it fully upright and secure before I install it FF in the Odyssey.

Also, new childcare changes means my son will be riding in multiple cars for the first time. He is almost 14 months and is going to be a giant just like his dad. I haven't taken his measurements lately, but on 11/20/09 he was 1 year six days old, 32.5 inches tall, and 23 lbs 8 oz. (surprisingly, he hasn't shrunk since then). I need another quality car seat that makes sense. I can't justify buying another boulevard because of the cost and the fact that he will definitely outgrow it from a height standpoint long before he reaches 65 lbs.

I guess my main question is this: If my nearly 14 month old son meets the height, weight, and shoulder requirements for the Britax Frontier, would it be safe to go ahead and use that, or is there a bone density or some other reason that they put a lower age requirement (2 years old) on it? If so, what is the reason?

I have looked at the Graco Nautilus and there is no way that thing would fit in my other vehicle (a Civic). The Marathon seems to bring the same future problems as the Boulevard would. Any thoughts, answers, or suggestions?

Wow, lots of great questions.

I'll get right down to brass tacks. The Frontier is absolutely NOT a safe or acceptable choice for your infant.

NOR is the Boulevard in the forward facing position. The ONLY acceptable seat for your baby is a rear facing convertible.

Babies your son's age are at hugely increased risk of head and neck injuries in a forward facing seat, or even worse.

You need to reinstall the seat in a rear facing position, before your son goes in the car again.

We've known for years that children need to remain in a rear facing seat MUCH longer than old recommendations suggested. More recently, we've seen some pretty impressive studies proving it.

Children MUST remain rear facing for the first years of their lives. That is why the Frontier has a two year minimum on it...no 1 year old should be in a combination seat, or any forward facing seat.

However, even two years is not ideal. Three and four years is a more preferable MINIMUM for safety.

I'm on my laptop but I'm sure folks will be along with links for your browsing pleasure. :thumbsup:

I would give Britax a call about the Boulevard, and ask if it's safe to use in the rear facing position. There are better convertibles that will last longer in a rear facing position if you're interested in replacing it.

(Incidentally, in a few years, a Nautilus will fit just fine in a Civic )

Hi, and welcome to car-seat.org.

If your Boulevard doesn't seem to be clicking into the upright position correctly, I'd call Britax. Did you have the seat tethered while rear-facing? Sometimes an overly-tightened rear-facing tether can damage the car seat, causing it not to click into place when upright.

At your son's age and size, he really, really should be riding rear-facing... he'd be sooo much safer. There are lots of articles and studies out there, along with videos on youtube, that explain the reasons why rear-facing as long as possible is the safest way to travel. To put it in a nutshell, young babies and toddlers have larger heads in proportion to their bodies along with immature skeletal structures, which increases the risk of serious injury (or worse) when riding forward-facing. In a crash while forward-facing, your child's head would be flung forward with massive force, which puts your child at risk of serious injuries. While rear-facing, the shell of the car seat cradles your child's body, distributing the crash forces evenly, protecting the delicate head, neck and spinal cord.

The American Academy of Pediatrics recommends that children ride rear-facing until the maximum height or weight limits of their rear-facing convertible seat. This is why Britax requires a child to be at least 2 years of age and 25lbs to use the Frontier. The Boulevard rear-faces to 35lbs (older models rear-face to 33lbs). If you would like to purchase a new seat for your child, we'd highly recommend another convertible seat (one that can be used both rear-facing and later - much later - forward-facing). There are many on the market worthy of consideration, and several offer more height, weight and leg room for rear-facing kiddos.

I know it may seem weird to imagine "older" kids rear-facing, but you'll find that many of us on this board have 3 and even 4 year olds (and maybe a few 5 year olds!) still rear-facing. Incase you're wondering, leg room isn't a concern... kids find ways of bending their legs to fit, and are quite comfortable. :thumbsup:

Do you have a budget in mind for the new seat? This would help us narrow down some seats that might fit your needs.

If the OP is in the US, could someone from the US please verify the height/wt limits I listed for the seats below? Thanks.

OP:
[ETA: see wendy's reply in post #6 - the US does not have a "standard" 32" height limit... - excuse my Canadian-ness ]
If you are uncomfortable making the parental decision to disregard the 32" height limit for RF in so many seats, including your Boulevard (as I am assuming this is why he is now FF, and BTW many of us make that decision based on knowing that since all kids are proportioned differently, that height limit is somewhat artificial and the more important issue is that there is at least 1" of hard shell above the child's head), then you should look at the First Years True Fit (RF to 35 lbs/FF to 65 lbs), the Graco MyRide (RF to 40 lbs/FF to 65 lbs) and the Evenflo Triumph Advance (RF to 30 lbs/ FF to 47 lbs) as they all have decently tall shells, especially the TrueFit, and all 3 use "one inch of shell above the head" as a height limit. And all are significantly less $$ than than the Boulevard.

You could also look at the Sunshine Kids Radian (40/45 lbs RF depending on the model /65lb FF (and some 80 lbs FF in the US) and something like 44" numerical height limit? for RF) and the Safety 1st Complete Air (40 lbs RF / 50 lbs FF and again, something like 40 or 44" RF height limit - could someone please check the exact numbers for these 2? I've got to run and can't dig.)

All the seats I stated give top harness heights and shell heights very similar or better than the Boulevard you have now. Most kids will outgrow most seats by height before the weight so unless you have a heavy child, the shell height and top slot measurements are of interest, as you say. The MR stats are very similar to the BV in terms of seat size and slot heights. The TF offers a little more height, and the Radian a little more than that. Any of these seats should get you to a respectable age for getting a good dedicated high back booster once your son outgrows them.

For multiple car switching, I probably wouldn't get the Radian as it can be tricky in some vehicles. The TF has built in lockoffs and installs fairly easily. I hear that the MyRide installs quite well also but haven't yet received mine. (Can't wait!) In our situation since different people drop off and pick up constantly and sometimes at short notice, and since I felt we could afford it, we chose to get dedicated seats for all 4 vehicles.

ETA: for RF info, a good start is http://www.joelsjourney.org/ and [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvyIv9QVRBE"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvyIv9QVRBE[/ame]

Glad you've come!

The others have mentioned that he needs to be rear facing, but I wanted to touch on the why. You asked about skeletal density. You are *this* close to being right. Which is impressive, as most parents think it has to do with muscular strength.

What happens is that at birth an infant's skeleton is not yet fully ossified. If it was it'd be like giving birth to a brick, so all of the women of the world really appreciate this fact. Everyone knows about the head and the soft spots, but the entire body is unossified. There are no wrist bones, no ankle bones, the skull is in what, six bones? And each and every vertebrae is three bones instead of one.



The vertebrae on the left is of a one year old, the one on the right is a six year old. By six years the skeleton has done most of its ossifying.

Ok, so we've got these three bones wrapped around the spinal column, and they're held together by cartilage. If you take a huge infant head, which is at a year about 1/4 of the body weight, and hold a baby in by five points at the shoulders, hips, and crotch, you have a huge head being flung forward on a spine that's made of twizzlers. The cartilage, in crash forces, can stretch up to two inches. The spinal column can stretch up to a 1/2" on a good day. Quarter inch is more accurate. What happens is one of the pieces of bone will sheer straight through the column, causing internal decapitation. Very few babies (and adults, we're not immune from this, just far more protected and sturdier) survive this. The lucky ones are paralyzed from that vertebrae down. The very very very VERY lucky ones recover with no complications. When you read of an infant or child dying at a car crash from head or neck injuries, this is what it usually is. But while newspapers want to report the sensational, they don't want to turn off readers by mentioning any sort of decapitation to a baby. It doesn't look gross, baby looks like he's sleeping, but it's just as deadly as a complete decapitation.

Ok, enough talking. Here are some links.
http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/StayRearFacing.aspx (good general page, addresses the legs, and has crash test videos at the bottom, as well as an album of older kids (look for my Piper!))
http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/pediatrics;109/3/550 (AAP policy from 2002 stating children should face the rear to the maximum limits of the convertible, bullet one under recommendations)
http://aapnews.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/30/4/12-a (AAP statement saying two years should be the new bare minimum, but restating the as long as possible in a convertible rear facing)
http://injuryprevention.bmj.com/content/13/6/398.abstract (Study mentioned by the AAP in the second article showing that rear facing is 500% safer in children 12-23 months)
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/extract/121/3/619 (Article in the AAP's journal Pediatrics stating that pediatricians should stop telling people 1 and 20)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/8094829.stm (BBC article saying that instead of nine months, British parents should rear face their kids to four years).

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8gU9zzCGA8"]YouTube- Front facing or Rear facing? Car seat safety TRUE STORY crash test videos[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2DVfqFhseo"]YouTube- The Importance of Rear-Facing[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRP7ynNI8mI"]YouTube- Child Seat Safety[/ame]
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9916868
http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080129/FREE/872410421/1024/PHOTOS03

How is your son tall? Is he long in the torso or long in the legs? You'll know if he's disproportionate because you'll buy clothes one size bigger for length in shirts or pants. If his length is in his legs then no big deal. Short torsos are great for carseats. If he's long in his torso then you may want to look at a different seat than the Boulevard for extended rear facing. He's fairly light, so a Learning Curve True Fit may work, but a Sunshine Kids Radian may be better. Both are within an inch of one another on shell height (the TF is taller) but the Radian 80SL and XTSL rear face to 45 pounds instead of 35 pounds. So if he's just going to be a big guy you may want the extra weight. Both the TF and the Radians have 17.5" top slots, so forward facing they're outgrown about the same time, around 60 pounds for most kids and about six years old (the TF has a 65 pound forward facing limit, the two Radians mentioned have 80 pound harness limits). The Radian XTSL is about the same price as a Frontier, the TF is significantly cheaper at about $150 (the TF Premier, with an antirebound bar, is about $225).

Hope this answers your questions! You asked some really good ones. Feel free to come back and ask more, and at least give us a follow up.

And oh yeah, call Britax. If your seat is less than a year old they'll likely replace it. What you've got is not an uncommon problem. Then I'd take the new seat and sell it and put the money toward something that will last him longer rear facing. And tell Britax that so they'll figure it out and make a longer lasting seat!!

Wendy

mommycat said:

If the OP is in the US, could someone from the US please verify the height/wt limits I listed for the seats below? Thanks.

Click to expand...

The Complete Air has a 40" rear facing height limit/head at the top of the headrest (Piper at 46" still had 1.5" of room above her head, so it'd be a suuuuuuupppeeerrrr long torsoed kid who would be 40" and still at the top of the headrest). You must be 34" to forward face in Dorel seats. Otherwise I don't think most seats in the US mention height for rear facing other than 1" from the top of the hard shell (not the headrest in the Boulevard). It was TC who said that infants are 32" and under, ergo you had to stop rear facing at 32" because only infants needed to rear face. Same with the 48 pounds being the maximum that a child weighed and so no harness could go above that.

Wendy

Thanks, Wendy, I knew I would be messing up some of the US details - in Canada the RF limits are 32" but I forgot that is one of the US/CDN differences - I thought I would get some of the wt limits wrong. Thanks again for checking and correcting. :thumbsup: (And as of recent developments, it appears that TC did not actually state the 32" limit, it just got "made up along the way" - we just need to have "a" height limit stated. We have the TF and the MR and the EFTA all using the 1" rule and passing TC review just fine!)

You've also got the TF and the Radian and maybe the Marathon(?) with 65 pound forward facing limits rather than 48. TC finally figured out that infants and children don't fit into their plucked-from-the-air sizes.

The OP is posting from a US IP. So he may be Canadian, but he's posting from the good ole US.

Wendy

wendytthomas said:

You've also got the TF and the Radian and maybe the Marathon(?) with 65 pound forward facing limits rather than 48. TC finally figured out that infants and children don't fit into their plucked-from-the-air sizes.

Click to expand...

Yes! Although that did require actual action in terms of legislation and all. The 30lb RF weight limit and the 32" RF height limit seem to be more of a misinterpretation problem.

Some answers for all of these posters:

My wife and I live in the very heart of the United States, St. Louis, MO.

Our son was FFing because of four reasons, one was the height issue, the other was that our pediatrician recommended it at 1 year old and it was a bear to put him in rear-facing in our Honda Fit at the end of the first year (now with the Odyssey it's nowhere near as much of hassle and I will turn it around), and the last reason is because my wife and I were ignorant to the data on RF vs. FF.

I'll have to measure him again tonight, but if A.J. is anything like me (6'5" with a long torso) he probably has it more in the torso than the legs. He seems to run at or just above his age-size in clothes. Right now he wears clothes between 12 months and 18 months in size.

Money is not plentiful at all, but my child's safety will trump any money related matter. I do not want to spend a fortune, we are having more kids, and I want this next car seat to be the best for both our son and our growing family.

I will call Britax about the Boulevard. The one in the store two days ago clearly clicked into place upright and I know ours used to. It has never been tethered RFing, only FFing.

Yay! Excellent.

Make sure to give the AAP info to your ped so that way he'll stop giving out such horrid advice. The 1 and 20 comes from when seats didn't rear face past 20 pounds, so you tried to get as close to a year as possible. Even then they knew that rear facing as long as you could was best, they just couldn't for long. And that wasn't so so long ago. I think in 2002 the first 20+ pound rear facing seats came out at 30 pounds. And now look, we've got 45 pound rear facing seats. Another eight years and we'll be caught up to Sweden on seats available. We just need to get the word out.

Wendy

My son is ranging much higher in growth percentile for height (97%) than for weight (he has ranged between 65-75% during the first year). I can't get an accurate measure until tonight, but I know his torso is not small, I would assume at this point that he is either proportionate to his legs or disproportionate because his torso is long, but his legs are not the dominating factor in his height.

The height comes from my side genetically, and my dad, granddad, and cousins are all long in the torso, but like I said, I'll know more tonight.

As for the two seats you recommended (TF & Radian), can you give me a opinion on which route we should go with it based on two different scenarios? Here they are:

1. Torso is longer in proportion to the legs, weight at 36 months approximately 35 lbs (After looking at the entire birth to first birthday portion of time, this is my best guess, I could see him not much lower than 32 and not much more than 37 lbs).

2. Torso and legs are equal, same weight issue.

After looking at them for now, I'm beginning to lean towards the Radian.

Just as an FYI, my large for age daughter was 32.5 inches and 22 pounds at 1 year. She wore 18-24? month pants and 2 T shirts then. She was able to rear face in her decathlon (same size shell as the boulevard) until she was 25 months, when she hit the 33 pound rf limit of that seat. She was 36.5 inches at the time. Here is a pic just before I flipped her forward facing, and then after.




Here she was at a year old or so.

I'd lean toward the Radian as well.

Wendy

Another vote here for the Radian :thumbsup: I would go with the Radian XTSL because since you have a newer van (wow, looks like brand new ) you can take advantage of the superlatch and never have to worry about having to do a seat belt install.

doublea082 said:

Some answers for all of these posters:

My wife and I live in the very heart of the United States, St. Louis, MO.

Our son was FFing because of four reasons, one was the height issue, the other was that our pediatrician recommended it at 1 year old and it was a bear to put him in rear-facing in our Honda Fit at the end of the first year (now with the Odyssey it's nowhere near as much of hassle and I will turn it around), and the last reason is because my wife and I were ignorant to the data on RF vs. FF.

I'll have to measure him again tonight, but if A.J. is anything like me (6'5" with a long torso) he probably has it more in the torso than the legs. He seems to run at or just above his age-size in clothes. Right now he wears clothes between 12 months and 18 months in size.

Money is not plentiful at all, but my child's safety will trump any money related matter. I do not want to spend a fortune, we are having more kids, and I want this next car seat to be the best for both our son and our growing family.

I will call Britax about the Boulevard. The one in the store two days ago clearly clicked into place upright and I know ours used to. It has never been tethered RFing, only FFing.

Click to expand...

Grand to hear back from you. You're making a great decision :thumbsup:

Unfortunately pediatricians often give that really bad advice, completely in defiance of the AAP's actual recommendations.

DS's stats after checking him over this evening show a seated shoulder height somewhere around 12.5 inches. I can tell just by watching him walk that he has a good size torso, and he's probably slightly disproportionate at this point by having such a good size torso. Once again, the genetics in our family testify to this.

So should I consider the shell height of the TF when RFing, or just go ahead with the Radian XTSL? Also, is there a review of the XTSL somewhere I could read?

http://carseatblog.com/?p=1066

THis is a review of the plain xt, but it is the same seat really. If you go forward in the blog, there are also entries on the new super latch (sl) feature of the new radians.

And, you are in luck with your son's torso. It isn't too extreme. My dd's was over 14 inches or so at 1 year