Weird wording in the 2010 XT Manual

amyd · Dec 30, 2009

I noticed this in the Canadian 2010 XT manual the other day...seems it was just copied-pasted from the US one.

Do not use vehicle's lower universal anchorage system when installing this restraint for a child weighing more than 65lbs (30 kg).

It's on page 4.

Also, there doesn't seem to be any mention of using LUAS beyond the vehicle's limits in post-Sept. 2005 vehicles. Anyone know if that's the same in Canada?

QuassEE · Dec 30, 2009

I'm still confused as to how Sunshine Kids thinks they can over-rule the auto manufacturers on the LATCH limits.. period.. I'm still confused about that one, and this is really something I should have an answer for. I don't.

I'm also amused as to how doctors are the ones who determine what angle kids under 10lbs should be at. If your doctor says it's ok to install your newborn flat on their back in it, is it suddenly ok?

On that note--I've seen worse manuals.

-Nicole.

featherhead · Dec 30, 2009

I have the same wording in my Radian65 that was made in 2007.

snowbird25ca · Dec 31, 2009

featherhead said:
I have the same wording in my Radian65 that was made in 2007.

Yep, they all have the same wording on that one. And on the angle.

The angle comment isn't intended to imply that the dr. can determine the angle for a baby, it's to cover their butts in the case of pre-term babies who should ultimately be in a car bed. They want to know that the baby can tolerate a semi-upright position.

And on the plus side, it would be impossible to over-recline the seat and still follow manufacturers instructions.

TechnoGranola · Dec 31, 2009

amyd said:
Also, there doesn't seem to be any mention of using LUAS beyond the vehicle's limits in post-Sept. 2005 vehicles. Anyone know if that's the same in Canada?

Interesting. Maybe that's why the seats aren't called SL here? Because there is nothing "super" about the lower anchors clips here if you can't use them beyond vehicle weight limits.....

amyd · Dec 31, 2009

TechnoGranola said:
Interesting. Maybe that's why the seats aren't called SL here? Because there is nothing "super" about the lower anchors clips here if you can't use them beyond vehicle weight limits.....

Ooops, I lied

There is a section in different font at the end of the manual...like where it tells you how to clean the cover, etc. that calls them "SuperLatch connectors" and tells you how to use them (button needs to be pushed in, audible click, etc). That's all, though.

simplychels · Dec 31, 2009

TechnoGranola said:
Interesting. Maybe that's why the seats aren't called SL here? Because there is nothing "super" about the lower anchors clips here if you can't use them beyond vehicle weight limits.....

to me that says you CAN use them past the vehicles limits since the vehicles limits are going to be 40 or 48lbs not 65lbs....

Also I have a quick, somewhat related question for people reading this thread. When it says "designated UAS spot" that obviously means no borrowing, but I've also seen people say that the UAS anchors need to be 11inches apart. So when you go to measure to ensure they are 11inches apart, do you measure from the inner points of the UAS hook or the outer points? I havent measured mine, my car has designated OFF CENTER UAS hooks, but I want to make sure they are 11inches before I use them. Did I word that so people can understand it? Much easier to show then explain, so if anyone needs clarification just say so.

TechnoGranola · Dec 31, 2009

simplychels said:
to me that says you CAN use them past the vehicles limits since the vehicles limits are going to be 40 or 48lbs not 65lbs....

The 65# wording was not the quote I was referring to. My post shows the quote I was responding to.

I didn't reply to the 65# comment because that isn't a new statement with the 2010 manuals, that wording has been there for much longer.

simplychels · Dec 31, 2009

TechnoGranola said:
The 65# wording was not the quote I was referring to. My post shows the quote I was responding to.

I didn't reply to the 65# comment because that isn't a new statement with the 2010 manuals, that wording has been there for much longer.

Sorry, I didnt realize that wording was in the other manuals. I've only had a chance to physically touch one other radian and it was missing its manual. People dont buy radians around here and the baby boutiques an hour away dont carry them either. Well until now, I think.

If I get a spare chance within the next little while I'll phone SK Canada to ask their stance.

snowbird25ca · Jan 1, 2010

simplychels said:
to me that says you CAN use them past the vehicles limits since the vehicles limits are going to be 40 or 48lbs not 65lbs....

Also I have a quick, somewhat related question for people reading this thread. When it says "designated UAS spot" that obviously means no borrowing, but I've also seen people say that the UAS anchors need to be 11inches apart. So when you go to measure to ensure they are 11inches apart, do you measure from the inner points of the UAS hook or the outer points? I havent measured mine, my car has designated OFF CENTER UAS hooks, but I want to make sure they are 11inches before I use them. Did I word that so people can understand it? Much easier to show then explain, so if anyone needs clarification just say so.

If it is a vehicle manufacturer designated UAS seating location then it will always be 11" spacing. Part of the standard for UAS regulates the distance between anchors, and that distance is 11". So provided you are using the correct anchors for the seating location, then you have 11" spacing. :thumbsup:

I don't know why the confusion in the naming the Canadian version of the XTSL the XT 2010 unless it was to prevent people from looking up the XTSL manual in the US and mistakenly thinking that their seat was rated to 80lbs? Maybe they hoped that the different name would lead to less confusion about which country the seat was sold in? I really don't know... just guessing.

DadToThree · Jan 2, 2010

snowbird25ca said:
I don't know why the confusion in the naming the Canadian version of the XTSL the XT 2010 unless it was to prevent people from looking up the XTSL manual in the US and mistakenly thinking that their seat was rated to 80lbs? Maybe they hoped that the different name would lead to less confusion about which country the seat was sold in? I really don't know... just guessing.

It's my understanding that you have to look at the vehicle manual. Most Canadian vehicles will not specify a LATCH weight limit. In this case, you would refer to the car seat manual. In Canada, the Sunshine Kids seats are good to 65lbs, so you are good to go.

Regarding the XTSL, the new 2010 seats have a totally different latch system. It is much stronger than the previous version. According to the pitch by the Sunshine Kids staff at the ABC show in Vegas, the old latch would fail above 65lbs, while the new latch holds to 80lbs allowing US installs to use the latch to 80lbs as long as a lower limit is not specified in the vehicle manual. For Canada this has not significant as the top seat weight is 65lbs, so I'm guessing that is why they didn't include the "SL" in the model in Canada.

snowbird25ca · Jan 2, 2010

DadToThree said:
It's my understanding that you have to look at the vehicle manual. Most Canadian vehicles will not specify a LATCH weight limit. In this case, you would refer to the car seat manual. In Canada, the Sunshine Kids seats are good to 65lbs, so you are good to go.

Regarding the XTSL, the new 2010 seats have a totally different latch system. It is much stronger than the previous version. According to the pitch by the Sunshine Kids staff at the ABC show in Vegas, the old latch would fail above 65lbs, while the new latch holds to 80lbs allowing US installs to use the latch to 80lbs as long as a lower limit is not specified in the vehicle manual. For Canada this has not significant as the top seat weight is 65lbs, so I'm guessing that is why they didn't include the "SL" in the model in Canada.

Transport Canada actually recommends discontinuing use of the UAS (lower anchors) at 48lbs if the weight limit is not specified in the vehicle manual. Top tether of course has to be used at all times in a ff'ing restraint.

The different latch connectors on the 2010 is the same as what is on the SL seats. Part of the reason - if not the biggest reason for the change, was that it was needed in order for the lower anchor attachments to not fail at rf'ing weights over 40lbs. Since the XT 2010 is rated to 45lbs rf'ing, this is why we have the SL connectors. They of course advertise it as also being able to be used to higher weight limits ff'ing, but from correspondence I've seen quoted on the boards here they experienced lower anchor connector failures at weights over 40lbs, thus necessitating the development of super latch if they wanted to increase the rf'ing weight limit. :thumbsup:

amyd · Jan 2, 2010

snowbird25ca said:
They of course advertise it as also being able to be used to higher weight limits ff'ing, but from correspondence I've seen quoted on the boards here they experienced lower anchor connector failures at weights over 40lbs, thus necessitating the development of super latch if they wanted to increase the rf'ing weight limit. :thumbsup:

Not sure if you're referring to the Canadian 2010 XT's or the American XTSL's here, but in Canada, SK is not advertising being able to use the LUAS/LATCH at a higher weight limit. There is a brief mention of not using the UAS to install the seat for a child who weighs more than 65lbs, though.

snowbird25ca · Jan 3, 2010

amyd said:
Not sure if you're referring to the Canadian 2010 XT's or the American XTSL's here, but in Canada, SK is not advertising being able to use the LUAS/LATCH at a higher weight limit. There is a brief mention of not using the UAS to install the seat for a child who weighs more than 65lbs, though.

Sorry, I should've been clearer in my comment. I was talking about the SL's in the US. And in terms of UAS failure I was talking about rf'ing at weights above 40lbs. My intent was that the whole SL better for ff'ing too isn't entirely the reason - it was primarily the 45lb rf'ing limit that necessitated it. And since we have the 45lb rf'ing limit on the XT 2010, we have the same superlatch connectors even if they're not calling the seat the same thing here. Maybe that's still not super clear.

canadiangie · Jan 3, 2010

snowbird25ca said:
Sorry, I should've been clearer in my comment. I was talking about the SL's in the US. And in terms of UAS failure I was talking about rf'ing at weights above 40lbs. My intent was that the whole SL better for ff'ing too isn't entirely the reason - it was primarily the 45lb rf'ing limit that necessitated it. And since we have the 45lb rf'ing limit on the XT 2010, we have the same superlatch connectors even if they're not calling the seat the same thing here. Maybe that's still not super clear.

Oh, it's clear as mud Trudy.

(seriously, I feel like I need to create some kind of spreadsheet or something, complete with footnotes :dizzy

snowbird25ca · Jan 3, 2010

canadiangie said:
Oh, it's clear as mud Trudy.

(seriously, I feel like I need to create some kind of spreadsheet or something, complete with footnotes :dizzy

LOL, I'll admit that this is the first seat I have felt like it's changing so fast and has so many different models that it is near impossible to keep up with. And I'm still not sure what the rf'ing height and weight limits are going to be on the plain radian and radian premier.

canadiangie · Jan 3, 2010

snowbird25ca said:
LOL, I'll admit that this is the first seat I have felt like it's changing so fast and has so many different models that it is near impossible to keep up with. And I'm still not sure what the rf'ing height and weight limits are going to be on the plain radian and radian premier.

Ooh Ooh! I can help some of that. The new Premiere rf's to 45lbs (not 40 as originally thought). Not sure about the Premiere's height limit, but the new XT is confirmed to be a 44" rf'ing height limit. I'm not sure about the plain 65, though I'm kicking myself for not taking 2 mins today and figuring it all out. I stood before a mack daddy stack of new RN's today in amazement, and I do believe that in terms of patterns we're up to something like 12 in Canada. It is truly mind boggling, but my plan is to have it all sorted out asap -- it's grating on my brain to not feel totally sure of things.

snowbird25ca · Jan 3, 2010

canadiangie said:
Ooh Ooh! I can help some of that. The new Premiere rf's to 45lbs (not 40 as originally thought). Not sure about the Premiere's height limit, but the new XT is confirmed to be a 44" rf'ing height limit. I'm not sure about the plain 65, though I'm kicking myself for not taking 2 mins today and figuring it all out. I stood before a mack daddy stack of new RN's today in amazement, and I do believe that in terms of patterns we're up to something like 12 in Canada. It is truly mind boggling, but my plan is to have it all sorted out asap -- it's grating on my brain to not feel totally sure of things.

Cool.

So I'm confused about the premiere being 45lb rf'ing limit. Can you check the manual next time you see one to see if they warn to discontinue use of UAS when rf'ing beyond 40lbs?

I know Russ isn't always the most reliable source of info, but he was pretty darn clear in those emails he sent to a few people in regards to superlatch and that normal LATCH connectors failed in rf'ing tests over 40lbs and that they weren't sure exactly when it would fail so they wouldn't rate seats which didn't have the super latch connectors beyond 40lbs rf'ing. The explanation of forces and reasons definitely made sense to me when I read those emails.

So I'm very confused about them rating the premier to 45lbs rf'ing - unless it's a labeling error or something? Maybe compare the English and French labels in addition to the manual?

eta: And I'd love you forever if you'd do the honors of starting a thread with the specifics between each model when you get it all sorted out. :thumbsup:

DadToThree · Jan 3, 2010

snowbird25ca said:
Cool.

So I'm confused about the premiere being 45lb rf'ing limit. Can you check the manual next time you see one to see if they warn to discontinue use of UAS when rf'ing beyond 40lbs?

I can help a bit.
Radian 65 - 40lbs RF, 44"
Radian Premier - 45lbs RF, 44"
Radian XT - 45lbs RF, 44"

Radian 65 Online Manual - http://www.skjp.com/simg/21826717.pdf
Radian Premier Online Manual - http://www.skjp.com/simg/21826682.pdf
Radian XT Online Manual - http://www.skjp.com/simg/21826720.pdf

Hope that helps a bit. Next time I'm beside the seats I'll check to see if the Premier and 65 have the SL.

TechnoGranola · Jan 3, 2010

Everyone knows the manuals are available on their web site for download, right?

From the online manuals:

the XT AND Premier contents page lists RF UAS install 2.3 to 20.5 kgs and FF UAS install 10 to 30 kgs
the corresponding install pages in the XT and Premier, coincide with the 20.5 kg RF limit for UAS (page 14) and 30 kg FF limit for UAS (page 20)
the XT, Premier and 65 all list a RF height limit of 44"
ALL models have a warning on page 4 saying not to use FF UAS for a child over 65# and have the warning again on page 20 in the FF UAS install section. This section also refers the parent to the seat belt install page for kids over 65#. They also keep saying 65# = 30 kg when it does NOT. 65# really equals 29.48 kg or 30 kg equals 66#.
Page 41 of the XT manual shows instructions on how to use the SuperLATCH connectors.
Page 30 of BOTH the Premier and the 65, show the same instructions on how to use the SuperLATCH connectors.

So, from their online manuals, assuming the manuals have been printed correctly, one can conclude that all three Canadian seat models have the SL connectors and that apparently our lower anchors in Canada are different than the U.S.

since we can use the lower anchors past 40#/48# for ANY vehicle, not just vehicles manufactured after September '05.

Weird wording in the 2010 XT Manual

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