Question Which car seat to get? (i'm in Europe)

I was referred over her from the mothering.com forums so hello everyone!

Here's my question.

My dd is almost 16months but very tiny. I havent had her weighed in a while but I think she's definitely not more than 8 kg, probably more like 7.5kg (16-17lbs).
I've been using a Maxicosi infant seat (by far the most popular brand/model over here), the maximum weight limit on that is 13 kg (28lbs). However, we borrowed that one from my brother and SIL and they are having another baby soon so the car seat will have to go back to them in the next couple of weeks.

Now I'm wondering what kind of car seat I could get. The next "size" of car seats have (as far as I've seen, all of them) a minimum weight limit of 9kg (20lbs) so dd is not there yet...
Also, they seem to be all forward facing and I would really prefer to keep her RF...

I found a website that sells the Recaro Polaric seat, which is rearfacing so that is good. But would it be a problem that dd is still actually not the minimum weight for it at all?

Also, will it fit in a Citroen C3 Picasso? (that's the car we have; Recaro have a car fit guide but the C3Picasso isnt on it... does that mean it won't fit, or is it because this is a fairly new model of car?) It's a pretty expensive seat so I really don't want to buy it and then find I wasted all that money...!!

Are there any other good RF seats I can get over here (I'm in Belgium)? I've searched the web a bit but I'm not sure which brands would be good etc.

Or, should I just buy another Maxicosi and use that until she outgrows it?

Thanks very much for reading and hopefully answering some or all of my questions

Welcome and great job on keeping your lo safe. Sounds like you know that RF is by far the safest way for kids to travel. :thumbsup:

I will be of limited help since I am in Canada, but here goes...

Check out the seats listed on www.carseat.se, it has a number of great EU approved extended rearfacing seats. Depending on where you are in Europe it can be very hard to find decent RF seats but you can have the Swedish seats shipped to you, or buy seats elsewhere and ship them in. The MultiTech is popular, and personally I was going to get the Two Way when I visited family this year (but then brought my own seats after all).

Please weigh your child to make sure of the weight you need to accomodate. I wouldn't use a seat outside of the stated weight limits. However, her weight may surprise you as well if you haven't checked, so even if you have a bathroom scale, weigh yourself with and without her and work out her weight (this method tends to be more accurate for small weights).

Ack, I have to run, but hopefully that will be a start.

OP here
thanks for your reply! I will check that website out. On mothering.com i also got a recommendation for the BeSafe izi kid which can be used from 0-18kg so that might be a better choice than the Recaro...

Just had a quick peek at carseat.se it looks like a great website indeed!! i'm going to do some more research!
Thanks again!

OP again here (maybe i should have registered )

mommycat said:

Welcome and great job on keeping your lo safe. Sounds like you know that RF is by far the safest way for kids to travel. :thumbsup:

I will be of limited help since I am in Canada, but here goes...

Check out the seats listed on www.carseat.se, it has a number of great EU approved extended rearfacing seats. Depending on where you are in Europe it can be very hard to find decent RF seats but you can have the Swedish seats shipped to you, or buy seats elsewhere and ship them in. The MultiTech is popular, and personally I was going to get the Two Way when I visited family this year (but then brought my own seats after all).

Please weigh your child to make sure of the weight you need to accomodate. I wouldn't use a seat outside of the stated weight limits. However, her weight may surprise you as well if you haven't checked, so even if you have a bathroom scale, weigh yourself with and without her and work out her weight (this method tends to be more accurate for small weights).

Ack, I have to run, but hopefully that will be a start.

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I looked a bit more at carseat.se and that is a really awesome website. I'll probably order from there. I'll probably get a Britax Hi Way or one of those BeSafe ones... the Britax is almost 200 euro cheaper though..

I'll try to weigh dd asap, i'm pretty curious anyway to see how much she's put on since the last time (start of sept).

Another great internet resource is rearfacing.co.uk, although obviously geared towards the UK. Click on the buyer's guide for international as well as UK-based info of what you can buy in Europe. I'm not familiar with what you can buy in store in Belgium so shipping in might be your only option.

Carseat.se is a great site and you can send the owner (known on here as Adventure Dad) an e-mail with your car info and I'm sure he'd be able to offer recommendations. As far as the Hi-Way, I will say even though it is rated from birth I wouldn't want to use it for a baby who still fit in an infant seat. The bottom slots are very high up and I think she would be swimming in it if she really is that little. As an alternative you might consider the Graco Duologic or Duologic II. I haven't seen the seat in person (yet), but Duologic II actually has an infant bucket component so I speculate it would fit little babies better. It even has infant padding. Or another choice from birth which is not on Adventure Dad's site, but is sold in Europe, is the Brio Zento. It might cradle a small baby better than some of the other choices, but there are some rumors it's uncomfortable. I'm not familiar with the BeSafe weight limits, but if you have a larger car with isofix they are supposed to be wonderfully easy to install.

The Multi-Tech and TWE that Mommycat mentioned start at 9kg. (When you weigh her remember her weight for the carseat is her weight with everything she would be wearing in the seat and a wet diaper not her weight at the doctor's office in nothing.)

As far as buying in store, in Germany you can buy the Recaro Polaric and the BeSafe seats in store. I'm guessing the Britax First Class is probably also available in store where you live and it can be used from birth to 13kg and is probably a better choice than another infant seat and then turns forward-facing so it could work for your DD for now if you want something that can be fitted by a professional. It obviously won't last as long rear facing as the other seats, but could last a good long while for a little babe and it is a convertible which the Duologic, Hi-Way and Zento are not. There a few other convertibles like the First Class that are sold in some parts of Europe like the Concord Ultimax (Germany and UK) and Bebe Confort Iseos Neo (not sure on the exact name, they sell it in France) so you could see if any of those are available locally. They are all 0-13kg rear facing and 9-18kg forward facing.

Hope that helps. Even if she is bordering on 9kg I might choose one of the seats that caters to the smaller set in the hopes that she won't be swimming in it. I hope others will chime in with their thoughts too. I should be getting my hands on a Graco Duologic (from carseat.se) soon so I can give you more thoughts on that seat, if you're interested in it, next week

Starting a new post because this is important: Does the Citroen C3 Picasso have storage compartments in the floor? I seem to remember reading that it does and that this rules out some of the most popular ERF seats because you can't use a foot prop over those storage compartments. Check your car owner's manual to see if it says anything about storage compartments and/or the use of support legs on car seats. All is not lost if you can't use a support leg, you'll still have options, but you will have to take that into consideration when you make your choice.

Glad I could help.

One good thing about the HiWay is that it can be installed with a lap only belt, so if you ever need it to go in a spot with lap only, it can. It seems like it will only RF - no FF available. Interesting, I don't think we have any seats like that in NA.

mommycat said:

One good thing about the HiWay is that it can be installed with a lap only belt, so if you ever need it to go in a spot with lap only, it can. It seems like it will only RF - no FF available. Interesting, I don't think we have any seats like that in NA.

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Yes, the Hi-Way is RF-only. This is one of my favorite features of the seat. It has this curve in the base of the seat that curves around the edge of the back seat's ledge and really just hugs on. I love that feature, it makes it seem so secure and like the placement of the seat is absolutely right. I'll try to throw a picture of it in my siggy so you can see what it's like. (I happen to have already uploaded one there and none on this computer.)

Oh, FYI, the Hi-Way can only be installed with a lap belt in the center position according to the manual. Not a problem since that's a great place to put a car seat except in our car there's this stupid plastic box that prevents the support leg from fully extending in that position. Adventure Dad said that's a fine install anyway, but I wasn't in love with it.

I wonder how close exactly the shell on that seat is to the Marathon? Looks very similar except of course the base/mounting hardware. Sorry, OT...

mommycat said:

I wonder how close exactly the shell on that seat is to the Marathon? Looks very similar except of course the base/mounting hardware. Sorry, OT...

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That's exactly what I think. And I find it interesting that it is RF-only given the MA's problems FF lately. It has more legroom than the Marathon though because it is installed away from the seat bight. I -would- love to compare them more closely though. Sorry for going off-topic, OP.

More OT, sorry.

I don't think that the FF issues with the MA have anything to do with the fact that this seat is RF only, necessarily. I think it is quite likely that in order to make the seat's RF limits so much higher, there had to be changes to the shell and base (especially adding the foot prop) which would make it difficult to accomodate the FF install. Designing for it to work in both directions with these limits would probably be an expensive process so to make the seat cost less they just picked one direction. So design a way to install the existing shell to perform well RF only (1 goal vs 2 that need to balance). That's my guess, anyway! Or maybe the fact that the shell is similar is just a design style and the actual seat shell is in fact quite different.

It's fun to speculate. *cough*geek!*cough* :lol:

mommycat said:

I think it is quite likely that in order to make the seat's RF limits so much higher, there had to be changes to the shell and base (especially adding the foot prop) which would make it difficult to accomodate the FF install. Designing for it to work in both directions with these limits would probably be an expensive process so to make the seat cost less they just picked one direction.

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Your way of thinking is as if the MA came first and the Hi-Way was a modification. I was thinking of it as the other way around, which makes it a different set of modifications. Of course I have no idea which was the 'original' seat. I do know Britax uses the same shell for different seats with differnet specs in different parts of the world. And it does make me geekily curious.

In the manual for the Graco Duologic I think they say straight-up that convertibles have to make design compromises that also compromise safetly and that's why the Duologic is RF-only. I have very limited experience with convertibles, but I really like the way the Hi-Way sits once it's installed, much more than any of our other seats.

All speculation about the MA similarity aside, I think the main reason that the Hi-Way is RF-only is that there just isn't any demand for it to FF. The seat shell is average height so probably won't last most kids much beyond age 4 and in Sweden they RF to age 4, so FF use wouldn't really be a desirable feature and it would necessity a different design.

OP here again


Thank you all very much for answering (and don't worry about going off topic, I really don't mind )

The car seats on carseat.se all seem really good so I'll be ordering one from there. Now just making a choice :lol: which i'm not really good at!


InternationalMama: yes the car does indeed have storage compartments in the passenger seats floor... The DuoLogic, the Britax Hi Way or the Izi Kid seats all fit my requirements (I mean weight especially), but... do they all have a foot prop? :-/

Unregistered said:

InternationalMama: yes the car does indeed have storage compartments in the passenger seats floor... The DuoLogic, the Britax Hi Way or the Izi Kid seats all fit my requirements (I mean weight especially), but... do they all have a foot prop? :-/

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I hate to tell you that yes, all of those car seats have a foot prop. Since I doubt you have isofix in the center position the Izikid and Duologic would be out for a center install. (Duologic can be installed with a seatbelt. I don't think I'd be thrilled to spend the money on an isofix seat and then not use it as such, but if you're getting a different car in the future that could be an option. I do remember reading though that someone with the Duologic in the center felt it obstructed visability in that position.)

You could still consider the Hi-Way if you can avoid your storage compartments by putting it in the center position, but the foot prop extends out at angle so you'll want to make sure you can extend it there. Another option is to consider putting the car seat in the front passenger seat if you can switch off your airbag. I think the Hi-Way is a popular one to use in that spot and if that appeals I could imagine it working well.

The two that don't require a foot prop that come to mind are the Two-Way Elite and the Brio Zento. The Zento can be used from birth, as I said. It doesn't get a lot of love on this forum, but I saw one in person once and liked it. TWE is a nice versatile seat (although I've never seen one in person), but starts at 9kg. Just to mention it, I know the Britax First Class also doesn't require a foot prop. I don't know if you'd be interested in the Zento, but if you are and you want to order from carseat.se you could ask Adventure Dad about it, I know he used to sell it. Perhaps you could still order one through him.

HTH.

mommycat said:

I wonder how close exactly the shell on that seat is to the Marathon? Looks very similar except of course the base/mounting hardware. Sorry, OT...

Click to expand...

Hi-Way shares the same shell as the Roundabout if I remember correctly. When seat is stripped naked there are usually a sticker saying "Roundabout"....

Manufacturers say no to using car seats with foot prop in cars with underfloor storage compartments but experts in this area consider it safe for a number of reasons (long story). We routinely install seats with support leg in cars with underfloor storage compartments. Seats such as Hi-Way are also installed by us leaning against front seat (and with support leg) which gives it even more support.

In cars where support leg doesn't reach all the way down due to high seats, such as Golf Plus, seats such as Hi-Way are leaning against front seat or dashboard (airbag deactivated). This has been done since 1965 and works extremely well.

BeSafe X2 would not be a good idea in a C3 Picasso since it needs lots of room. Their Isofix model is better but still needs more room than Hi-Way. The two most compact rear facing seats are DuoLogic and Hi-Way.

In case you feel strongly about no support leg Britax Two-Way would be your best option. It's a seat with tall seat shell but still needs only 5 cm more space than Hi-Way. TW can rear facing most kids until 25 kg and is approved both forward facing and rear facing to 25 kg.

OP again

Thanks everyone!!
I will get the Britax Hi way a Duologic seat as soon as I've decided which one (and which colour, argh), I'll order one through carseat.se (I can't believe how hard it is over here to get fear facing seats!)

I can deactivate the airbag on the front passenger seat quite easily, so that's one option, or I guess I could also use it without the foot support then. I'm so glad to hear it's also considered safe that way!!

Thank you all SO much for helping me choose!

Adventuredad said:

Hi-Way shares the same shell as the Roundabout if I remember correctly. When seat is tripped naked there are usually a sticker saying "Roundabout"....

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Really??? The Roundabout has such a short shell, it's outgrown really fast! Even if ears could go to top of the seat (they can over there, right?) I can't see that making a lot of kids past 2 or 2 1/2 rear-facing!

Adventuredad said:

Manufacturers say no to using car seats with foot prop in cars with underfloor storage compartments but experts in this area consider it safe for a number of reasons (long story). We routinely install seats with support leg in cars with underfloor storage compartments. Seats such as Hi-Way are also installed by us leaning against front seat (and with support leg) which gives it even more support.

In cars where support leg doesn't reach all the way down due to high seats, such as Golf Plus, seats such as Hi-Way are leaning against front seat or dashboard (airbag deactivated). This has been done since 1965 and works extremely well.

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First, OP, I'll say that Adventure Dad is very knowledgeable about these car seats and really will do everything in his power to help you get a good install. Now for where him and I disagree. I have talked to at least one professional fitter who will not install one of these seats in a car where the foot prop will not reach the floor. Also, take the Hi-Way for example, the car seat manual specifically says the support leg must reach the floor and does not mention anywhere that it is safe to use it when it does not reach the floor. It also specifically prohibits touching the seat in front. So the OP would be using the seat against manufacturer instructions. Also, if she calls her car manufacturer they will also tell her that she cannot use any car seat that needs a support leg over her under floor storage compartments. In addition, in a thread on a Swedish carseat forum where the OP's specific car was being discussed along with wich ERF seats could be installed in it, not one poster suggested that the person asking should or could use a car seat that required a support leg over their under floor storage. The unanimous opinion was either to buy one that doesn't require a support leg or to use it in a position without under floor storage.

I am not saying, Adventure Dad, that you are recommending something that is unsafe. But on this bulletin board it is generally considered good practice to recommend that parent's follow the instructions given to them by car seat manufacturers and their car's manufacturer, especially if safe car seat options are available while following these instructions. I definitely believe you that some professional fitters install these seats without the support leg, but the OP is not a professional fitter, I'm guessing she has actually never installed a Swedish seat before and I'm guessing she doesn't know anyone who can check her install, let alone a professional fitter with experience with these seats who can verify that this alternative installation is safe.

So, in my opinion, if I were the OP, I would be considering either a convertible like the Britax First Class that is locally available (with the possible option of a different seat when the babe reaches 13kg, which could be awhile!). Or the Brio Zento which fits small cars well and doesn't need a support leg (and yes, I know some kids have comfort issues, but there are some kids that have comfort issues (for different reasons) in seats like the Hi-Way and Multi-Tech too and plenty of people seem to like the Zento, comfort is in the eye of the often very fickle baby. Or I would be considering the Hi-Way, for example, installed in the front seat.

Ultimately, OP, if you would have ended up with the Hi-Way from Adventure Dad installed in the front seat even if I hadn't said anything then my long discussion above doesn't matter. But still, I wanted to write it out anyway just because if you do at some point decide to install the seat without the support leg you should be fully informed about the parental decision you are making to ignore manufacturer's instructions. While, as I've said, I do not believe Adventure Dad is recommending something that is unsafe, I do believe that we should in general discourage parents from ignore all stated instructions that come with their cars and seats in favor of the advice of a stranger on the internet. Just saying. No offense meant, AD.

Good luck with your choice, OP! I'm glad you came here to learn more about the seats. Let us know if you have any other questions. FWIW, I really like the idea of installing the Hi-Way in the front seat.

ketchupqueen said:

Really??? The Roundabout has such a short shell, it's outgrown really fast! Even if ears could go to top of the seat (they can over there, right?) I can't see that making a lot of kids past 2 or 2 1/2 rear-facing!

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Right? Wow. But I do wonder if the Roundabout and the Hi-Way are the same. Doesn't the Roundabout have 9 inch bottom slots? I don't think the Hi-Way slots are lower than 12 inches...

Good points by International Mama:thumbsup: This is a bit of a special situation and it's always debatable if it's better to explain the whole story or simply give a standard answer. I think a parent should follow manufacturers instructions and recommendations. It's just that sometimes there are exceptions which don't decrease safety, they might even increase safety. I usually try to explain the additional options available.

I work closely or stay in contact with some very knowledgeable people on car seats. Very few, if any, have their knowledge on car seats in the world. They tend to speak about how things really are since they goal is to keep kids safe in cars.

Touching/leaning/bracing against front seat: It does say in Britax Hi-Way manual that there should be a small space between back of seat and front of seat/dashboard. No one knows where this comes from, Britax Sweden can't even give a good answer. It was mentioned a long time ago in a manual and now it's difficult to change.

Leaning/bracing against front seat has been tested extensively, especially by a major manufacturer in US during the 90's. It was found to perform extremely well and at no point was a disadvantage found. The Swedes have also been bracing/leaning against dashboard/front seat since 1965 and at no point has any disadvantage been found. That's quite a bit of experience accumulated. Rear facing seats are basically built to lean against something.

Leaving a space to front seat makes really no sense since the front seat will any way be hit by the car seat in a collision possible causing damage. The most knowledgeable person I know on car seats will not install a seat unless it's leaning against front seat or dash (even with support leg). We install all car seats with support leg and also bracing on dash/seat.

The predecessor to Hi-Way, Britax Nordic Freeway, is very similar to Hi-Way but lack support leg. It always had to be installed leaning against front seat/dash.

Swedish rear facing car seats are tested and pass, unofficially, without support leg (among other situations) to make sure they are safe if parents forget/disregard to use support leg.

Car seats are tested in pretty much any possible situation to make sure they are safe even if parents don't follow recommendation. I'm sure your friend, the professional fitter, is knowledgeable but it's likely his experience is very limited comparing to sources I mentioned earlier ( I mean no offense).

I would personally have no issue with using a seat such as HW in a car with underfloor compartments for my kids. I would also gladly use a seat which was only leaning against front seat/dash.

When parents ask regarding the issue with compartments I give them the different options. In case no support leg is desired Britax Two-Way can be used.

Or the Brio Zento which fits small cars well and doesn't need a support leg (and yes, I know some kids have comfort issues, but there are some kids that have comfort issues (for different reasons) in seats like the Hi-Way and Multi-Tech too and plenty of people seem to like the Zento, comfort is in the eye of the often very fickle baby.

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Brio Zento doesn't fit small cars well. It needs lots of space. And we also have the comfort issue.....

In addition, in a thread on a Swedish carseat forum where the OP's specific car was being discussed along with wich ERF seats could be installed in it, not one poster suggested that the person asking should or could use a car seat that required a support leg over their under floor storage. The unanimous opinion was either to buy one that doesn't require a support leg or to use it in a position without under floor storage.

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These people most likely don't have lots of experience with car seats. At this board, with tons of knowledgeable people, we still have the debates of harnessing vs. high back boosters and some very senior people on the board also still believe rear facing in front seat is a death trap despite a mountain of evidence saying exactly the opposite. These things, and many others, are not a debate among professionals who really know about car seats. One problem is of course that not so many people have deep knowledge of car seats. Reading and installing some seats is one thing, being involved in production, testing, development is very different.

I should also mention what VW does with their Touran model to officially allow installation with support leg. The sell a piece of regular styrofoam which is placed in the underfloor compartment. I believe retail is €20 Euro for this piece (see below). This solution can easily be used for other cars as well if desired.

Thanks for the good input IM!

I just wanted to mention that I have a renault scenic (with underfloor storage compartments) and a besafe izi combi isofix fitted into it. In the scenic you can move the rear seats forwards just a very little way and then the support leg clears the lid of the storage compartments. I don't know if the c3 rear seats can be moved in this way at all but thought I would mention it as an option for some of the seats. obviously this requires testing the seats in the vehicle though. I was lucky enough to get help from a retailer who was willing to find a vehicle of the same make and model and year of mine and try it out for me before I ordered online.