Non techs helping with installs

[cmommyof2]

I used to help people with their seats before I became a tech. I didn't promote myself but didn't ignore those who asked me for help. I made it very clear I wasn't a tech but there is no techs in my area at all. So it was either me who knew a lot or the fire fighters that didn't know squat other then what their kids rode in 20 years ago from what they say. I did have them do it just as I do now. I only learned one thing in my CPST course though and it was about the belt shortening clip.

ETA: I am not saying that non techs should be going around helping others with seats but if that is all someone who has at the time then what can you do? I can't just let people go on their way knowing their seat is very wrong. I think it's an awesome idea to have a name and number of a local tech to give them. To tell them you are not a tech so please call them to know they have their child safely in the seat.

 

[Ducky5306]

I helped a lady in kmart pick out a baby onesie for her DOG! I helped an elderly lady carry 2,000 Christmas cards into the post office, I helped someone load their walker into their trunk and if someone asked If i'd help them install a seat I likely would (And explain I'm not a tech and they need to read their manual and contact a tech) I've installed seats for family, friends, the people I babysit for, etc if they sue me then thats on them.. I also drive 3 other families children in my car (with my carseats) on a daily basis

I did the Heimlich maneuver on a friend's child on monday (Obliviously the parent asked for help as she didn't know what to do to her chocking child!)

My point is there are sue-happy people everywhere.. I am not a EMT, Car seat tech, personal shopper, letter carrier, etc but if i am asked for help I will help to the best of my ability.. If i don't have any experience with the type of seat they have I would ask for the manual and help them install it and refer them to a tech.. Oddly most of the seats i've helped with have all been Britax seats that i've installed many times in many cars.

 

[bobandjess99]

I helped a lady in kmart pick out a baby onesie for her DOG! I helped an elderly lady carry 2,000 Christmas cards into the post office, I helped someone load their walker into their trunk and if someone asked If i'd help them install a seat I likely would (And explain I'm not a tech and they need to read their manual and contact a tech) I've installed seats for family, friends, the people I babysit for, etc if they sue me then thats on them.. I also drive 3 other families children in my car (with my carseats) on a daily basis

I did the Heimlich maneuver on a friend's child on monday (Obliviously the parent asked for help as she didn't know what to do to her chocking child!)

My point is there are sue-happy people everywhere.. I am not a EMT, Car seat tech, personal shopper, letter carrier, etc but if i am asked for help I will help to the best of my ability.. If i don't have any experience with the type of seat they have I would ask for the manual and help them install it and refer them to a tech.. Oddly most of the seats i've helped with have all been Britax seats that i've installed many times in many cars.

I completely agree. As long as you dont pass yourself off as a tech, I think you're doing nothing wrong.

It annoys me that you have to be "certified" in ordeer to help people. I got certified as a tech just so my advice would be taken seriously. Did I learn a SINGLE THING in tech class that i didn't already know? NOPE. Not a one. But i had to go through the hassle of the class, and the expense, and the time away from my family, just to get the stupid piece of paper.
I hate that i have to spend my hard-earned money, and my valuable time, fulfilling stupid requirements to get stupid pieces of paper, in order to be able to "legitimately" help people...in any number of areas. :thumbsdown:

 

[InternationalMama]

I haven't read through the entire thread, but I noticed the OP commenting a few times that you would be surprised if there was any kind of legal precedent about strangers helping strangers with car seats. I can guarantee you there is a legal precedent about it. It may not be directly related to car seats and maybe no one sued about car seats specifically, but the legal precedent is there. The thing is that the ramifications and your protections as a helpful stranger depend on the state, so you'd really have to look into your state's laws and especially the good samaritan laws.

What I have learned is that in some states even if a person is unconscious and would potentially die without your help if you help them and it ends up leading to them actually being hurt more than if you had left them alone (suppose for example you remove them from a car because you're afraid it will explode, but then it turns out they had a spinal injury and they are paralyzed because you moved them) then they have every right to sue you if you were just a bystander and not a trained professional such as an EMT. These laws exist because people have been seriously injured by people who believed they were being helpful.

That being said, I suspect that if the parent gave you their consent to install their seat after you clarified that you have no special training in this area then they probably wouldn't have any grounds on which to sue you in the event of an accident. Still, while you may be confident that your install was better than whatever install they had before you touched their seat, is that something you would want to have to argue in a lengthy and very expensive court battle? If the parent is there and the parent has the physical capability to install a car seat I see no reason not to have them do it themselves. It makes a huge difference from a legal standpoint.

That being said , I completely see your point that you are trying to help out a person who needs help and sometimes we need to do that even when it may not be the best choice from a liability standpoint. It's really a personal decision you have to make in the individual situation. I think people here are just trying to offer you alternatives that you may not have seen.

 

[KaysKidz]

I wonder if the 'good samaritan' laws would apply in this type of situation, from a legal stand point.

 

[KaysKidz]

BTW, I honestly can't imagine installing a strangers seat. I don't even have the nerve to tell most people of their errors, regardless of how obvious they are. I wish I did. A friend, sure...and even still, that gets tricky.

 

[pj2rc]

I guess I' confused how what OP did is different than someone who for instance had a flat tire and had no idea what to do and no way at the moment to get AAA or hlp anywhere else. I would try to help them, the person knows I'm not a mechanic or anything, just helping. She told them she wasn't an expert. I would think if an accident occurred & a lawsuit after, it would fall under the Good Samaritan laws or something similar. She gave full disclosure and gave them the info on how to follow-up

 

[njmommy]

this post has been interesting to me to read. i have been in this position with a neighbor and i was going to install her seat because she is completely clueless & her child would not have been safe if she did it (i had to fix her infant seat before). however, i was not familiar with the brand & she did not have the manual (it was given to her). also, the shoulder straps would need to be re-threaded & I didnt want to get into that without the manual. so i declined, and she took it to the police station.

anyway, i just want to add that the last time i got my seats inspected, I was not overly impressed with the job that was done.

the officer tried installing my infant base backward! (granted he was newly trained, but trained none the less) & then i noticed later he installed my tether twisted about 3-4 times. even the tech missed that during the final inspection. i know the latter isnt a huge deal, but it was by far a perfect install. in fact, the seat was installed better when I went in there, than when I left. i promptly fixed it once i got home.

 

[LISmama810]

Tech or not, it's a bad idea to install seats FOR people, and it's not just because of liability. It's because people need to know how to install their seats. Sure, the dad might be able to get his baby home from the hospital, but what happens when he's at the car wash and realizes his seats have been uninstalled? Is he going to ask for help from the guy at the cash register?

I don't think non-techs should NEVER help people with their seats. If a friend asked me to help assemble a crib or a bouncy seat or something, I'd help, and I see car seats (among friends) being similar.

I think it does get stickier with strangers because they don't know you. You can say you're not a tech, but most people don't really know what techs are or what the training requirements are. If a stranger thinks you're an expert (even if you say you're not a tech), they could be putting more faith in you than you should.

If someone is truly stranded, I'd be ok with a non-tech explaining that they aren't sure, but can give it a shot. That person better read the manual and stickers closely, and point things out to the parents. ("Here's the belt path for rear-facing.") The person should have the parents install the seat while giving pointers. The person should definitely refer the person to a tech.

And I'm sorry, but seats are not the same. There are a lot of weird quirks out there, even in your typical Babies R Us/Walmart/Target seats.

 

[NatesMamma]

I do think I'm going to have to disagree with you on this. Remember that this misuse rate is 70-90%. I think more than 10% of parents DO read the manuals; they may just not understand and/or follow them.

I agree that it's possible to really mess up an install even after reading the manuals. That's why I posted that I think the ideal is for everyone to have her seats checked, and it's why I have had my own DS's seat checked (which answers your question from below). That said, I still think most errors can be avoided by reading the manuals. Just off the top of my head, the errors I have seen in my admittedly limited experience are: seat belt not locked, wrong belt path used, belly clips, harness waaay too loose, seat turned FF before child reached minimums stated by the seat manufacturer, child turned FF before reaching either 1 yr or 20 lb, loose installs, and FF LATCHed seat not tethered. Every one of those issues is covered in the CR manual, and in every case where I've asked, the parent/guardian admitted they had never read the manual--or even the stickers on the side of the seat, for that matter! (In addition to the two parents I mentioned in my OP, I have given bits of advice here and there to three of my friends.) Some other common mistakes I've heard about from techs both here and IRL are things like putting RF seats in front of airbags, using the wrong harness slots, and not reclining the CR at the proper angle for RF. Again, all covered in the manual. (Although, yes, sometimes manuals are not as clear as they should be. Unfortunately, I think that's just a byproduct of manufacturers trying to be as brief as possible. After all, parents probably are more likely to read a short manual than a really long one.)

You know, I would love to see some good data on the percentage of parents who actually read the CR manual. I wouldn't be the least bit shocked if it's well under 50%. And I'll bet it's way, way lower than even that when it comes to parents who read both the CR and the vehicle manuals. Have any techs polled their clients or anything?

I helped a lady in kmart pick out a baby onesie for her DOG!

:scratcheshead:

I think I can top that! Some big old biker dude was asking me about my baby carrier. So he could wear his dog while on his motorcycle. (And no, please let's not get into the safety issues with doing so!) :ROTFLMAO:

That being said, I suspect that if the parent gave you their consent to install their seat after you clarified that you have no special training in this area then they probably wouldn't have any grounds on which to sue you in the event of an accident. Still, while you may be confident that your install was better than whatever install they had before you touched their seat, is that something you would want to have to argue in a lengthy and very expensive court battle? If the parent is there and the parent has the physical capability to install a car seat I see no reason not to have them do it themselves. It makes a huge difference from a legal standpoint.

That being said , I completely see your point that you are trying to help out a person who needs help and sometimes we need to do that even when it may not be the best choice from a liability standpoint. It's really a personal decision you have to make in the individual situation. I think people here are just trying to offer you alternatives that you may not have seen.

My very imperfect understanding is that the Good Samaritan Laws only apply when rendering aid to someone who is ill or injured. I don't think they would apply when installing a carseat, although something similar might, especially since the parents approached me and requested my assistance. And of course, I made it clear that I don't have any profession qualifications.

No, of course I wouldn't want to have to justify my actions in court. (I do realize that was a rhetorical question. ) That said, aside from maybe having the parent install the seat, depending on a number of variables, I probably won't do anything differently if a similar situation arises in the future. Sure, I'm going to send my pregnant friend straight to a tech for help installing her unborn baby's seat. But someone who is about to go driving off with their kid in a really unsafe situation? Yeah, I'll do what I think I can to help. Heck, even if that parent left and drove directly over to meet with a tech, said child would still be in a really bad situation for at least one car ride. I'd rather assume some legal liability than later hear about how the kid was in a wreck on the way to the tech and was killed when he was ejected from his CR because of gross misuse. KWIM?

 

[carseatcoach]

I wonder if the 'good samaritan' laws would apply in this type of situation, from a legal stand point.

I don't think so. The way it was explained to me, I'm covered by a Good Samaritan clause as long as my certification is current and I'm acting within its scope. In other words, I have to be able to demonstrate that I knew that I was offering good advice and acting in good faith.

(That the OP had to ask "do all seats install the same" demonstrates that she was not qualified to offer the assistance she did.)

 

[jeminijad]

Sure, I'm going to send my pregnant friend straight to a tech for help installing her unborn baby's seat. But someone who is about to go driving off with their kid in a really unsafe situation? Yeah, I'll do what I think I can to help. KWIM?

This sums up how I feel about it.

I've read some posts (not on this thread) that imply that gross misuse spotted & corrected by a non-tech may or may not leave the child safer. That viewpoint I take exception with. Tightening 6" of play at the beltpath on a Snugride base is going to leave the child safer, whether I sat for 5 days in the tech class or not. Turning around a FF Snugride is going to leave the child safer. You get my point, and what I mean by gross misuse.

If the child is going to be riding in that seat immediately, whether I help out of not, and I've been asked, I'm going to help.

But I am not going to put myself out there as a car seat expert. I am not going to volunteer in the BRU parking lot, and I am going to refer people to techs in both pressing and nonpressing situations... it is just that there are a few circumstances in which the safety of a child trumps my need to cover my butt :twocents:

 

[carseatcoach]

But showing the parent how to fix the gross misuse is better for the parent AND better for you. I understand feeling a need to help. I don't understand feeling the need to be the one messing with a seat that isn't yours. Even most techs would prefer to teach the parent.

 

[Babywearing Meghan]

I have a friend who had misuse, mighty tight, straps two slots too low, a bit loose of an install ect..we talked and I knew she had not fixed cause she was not sure how to install the seat and did not want to go to the trouble of taking it out and then re installing it.

Well one day she came to the school and she tells me that her son accidentally bumped the buckle and uninstalled the seat..and had been riding in his big brothers booster and his brother was in nothing cause she couldn't re install it, could I please look at it and help her re install it. She knows I am one of those crazy car seat people but am not a tech..I had told her about the mighty tight being a no no, and that her sons straps needed to be raised just in conversation.

So anyways, I said sure, but that I was not a tech remember. I sat her son down so I could raise the harness straps to the top slot from second to bottom..and raise the head rest (APEX) and went to work installing it but showed her exactly how I did it each step of the way in case it came un installed again.

In the end her little one was much safer. I saw nothing wrong with it. I mean he was better off than if she had taken him to the fire dept tech or esp the police dept tech here, both have incorrectly installed seats for me back before I knew as much about seats.. and even then I noted their errors.

I also have a friend who refuses to lock the seat belts when she installs her seats, I showed her how but she never does it.. that is frustrating. I went in and did it for her to all of her seats one time.. she is my best friend and college room mate, our kids are all the same age and I love them nearly as much as I love my own kids so I had to do it lol

Then my dear friend who is due tomorrow with baby #2 who is a member here.. but not frequently and erf's her 2.5 year old.. had installed her snug ride and I took a look at it and gave it an extra tug for extra tightness but left her awesome install alone other wise.

I would not go to a stranger and do it for them.. but if a friend wants me to I can do it while disclosing that I am not a tech. But seriously with the exception of Colleen and John Crow, the techs I have come across here really do not know a whole lot about what they are doing

 

[Babywearing Meghan]

This sums up how I feel about it.

I've read some posts (not on this thread) that imply that gross misuse spotted & corrected by a non-tech may or may not leave the child safer. That viewpoint I take exception with. Tightening 6" of play at the beltpath on a Snugride base is going to leave the child safer, whether I sat for 5 days in the tech class or not. Turning around a FF Snugride is going to leave the child safer. You get my point, and what I mean by gross misuse.

If the child is going to be riding in that seat immediately, whether I help out of not, and I've been asked, I'm going to help.

But I am not going to put myself out there as a car seat expert. I am not going to volunteer in the BRU parking lot, and I am going to refer people to techs in both pressing and nonpressing situations... it is just that there are a few circumstances in which the safety of a child trumps my need to cover my butt :twocents:

x3!!

 

[littleangelfire]

I do think I'm going to have to disagree with you on this. Remember that this misuse rate is 70-90%. I think more than 10% of parents DO read the manuals; they may just not understand and/or follow them.

I'm sure there is certainly a faction of parents who read the manual and are still confused. We've had confusion even among seasoned members here when a manual says something that contradicts something it said a few pages ago. But I'm also pretty confident that that's not the norm - most parents aren't reading them at all. They rely on common sense and perhaps the stickers on the seat, and maybe a friend. I say this b/c most people flat out don't read manuals for hardly anything. Let alone a car seat that they think shouldn't be at all difficult to figure out. I mean, its a chair, with a hole, put the belt in the hole. Easy, right?

I completely agree. As long as you dont pass yourself off as a tech, I think you're doing nothing wrong.

It annoys me that you have to be "certified" in ordeer to help people. I got certified as a tech just so my advice would be taken seriously. Did I learn a SINGLE THING in tech class that i didn't already know? NOPE. Not a one. But i had to go through the hassle of the class, and the expense, and the time away from my family, just to get the stupid piece of paper.
I hate that i have to spend my hard-earned money, and my valuable time, fulfilling stupid requirements to get stupid pieces of paper, in order to be able to "legitimately" help people...in any number of areas. :thumbsdown:

ITA with your whole post. I'll probably get certified, too, but not b/c I expect to be taught some new earth shattering info. Mainly for the reason you stated: b/c I hope it will make people take me slightly more seriously when I try and tell them things about car safety. A long time ago, it was your experience and willingness to learn that earned you the respect of people, nowadays it seems a piece of paper is what matters to many. I earn my living from my experience. My piece of paper is in IT and I use it, like, never. But people feel confident asking me computer advice b/c of my degree. I'll share that I don't think my degree taught me much - it was a poor program, with very little hands on/demos to do. My experience messing with computers has taught me MUCH more. That's while I feel confident helping the people who feel confident asking b/c of my degree.

It shouldn't take certification in anything to help someone.

 

[morninglori]

I am not a tech (yet) , but I do help friends/family with their installs with seats I am familar with. I will get in the car and do the install and check for tightness and show my friend the little tips and tricks I use. I talk out my thought process, pretty much do it all and show it can be done...

BUT... the last thing I always do is unbuckle the seat and say "Now it's your turn".

 

[jeminijad]

But showing the parent how to fix the gross misuse is better for the parent AND better for you. I understand feeling a need to help. I don't understand feeling the need to be the one messing with a seat that isn't yours. Even most techs would prefer to teach the parent.

This is true. It is just hard to do sometimes.

 

[essnce629]

I've installed seats for my best friends and doula clients before and I'm not a tech and would not worry about them sueing me if something did happen. I have one friend who could car less about carseat safety and has a Britax BV. It's always installed with LATCH and the seatbelt, the straps are wrong, it's loose, etc so I've gone in and fixed it and made sure the straps were positioned right for her DD. I've tried to show her how to do it but she won't listen. She has a Keyfit too for her younger DD and the base was super loose and all over the place. I've owned both of these seats and can install them with my eyes closed. I'd never hesitate to install these seats. I'd feel worse if I let her drive off with her seats all wrong without doing anything about it.

My other friend also has a BV and can install it herself but doesn't always get it as tight as she'd like since she has leather seats. I've gone in and gotten it rock solid for her. Same with her Keyfit.

My doula clients all have Graco Safeseats and Keyfits and I just go and check to make sure their base is tight. If they're not I'll tighten them up for them and explain to them how to do it and talk to them about how the straps should be, chest clip position, etc. I always hear about how it's so hard to find a tech or they don't have time to go or how the firefighters give out wrong advice so I figure it's better for me to do it for them and show them how, then them never getting around to finding a tech (which most don't).

Only once have I installed a seat that I wasn't familiar with (Recaro Young Sport), but I read the manual thoroughly and re-installed it with my friend right there watching me and telling her what I was doing. Her seat was also super loose, installed incorrectly, and her son was just past the max weight limit. I let her know and she went out and bought a Britax BV soon after.

I do plan on becoming a tech one day. I've never installed a complete stranger's seat before, but I have talked to several people in BRU and Target about carseat stuff when they look completely frazzled with all the seats in front of them and they have no idea the differences.

 

[NatesMamma]

I *do* agree that the best thing is for a parent to be able to install her own kids' carseats. And while I was installing, for example, the guy in front of the hospital's seat, I was talking about what I was doing while he watched. ("The stamp here on this tab says the belt needs to go under it." "That clicking means your seat belt is locked." "You really need to put this much weight into a seat to get a tight install.") No, he's probably not going to be able to reinstall the seat just based on what I was telling him, but I'm OK with the way I handled it under the circumstances. It's not as though any of us had unlimited time, and I gave him very clear instructions on how to get more assistance. I even explained to him what a tech is and why they're better equipped to fix his seat than I am. So there is absolutely no excuse if he's still driving around not knowing how to properly restrain his new baby.

We were standing on the side of the road. I had to hand DS over to someone who is a near stranger to him while I assisted this man I had never seen before. It was hot. My ride home was due any minute. It was dinner time, and DS was already going to be late getting to bed. This couple's 1 day old needed to get home, not be hanging out in the street wrapped in blankets. The mom looked like someone who had delivered a baby 24 hours ago and needed to get off her feet... In addition to my own feelings regarding whether it should be me or a tech teaching this guy, there are several other reasons I didn't care to stand around making this stranger demonstrate competence with his CR. If the circumstances are way different next time, then, sure, I may just take all afternoon ensuring that the parent can install the seat while blindfolded and standing on his head. But if the situation arises on a typical day, when I need to be tending to my own child and I have somewhere I need to be, I'll probably handle it just about the way I did in front of the hospital. It's not perfect, but I think it's making the best of a less than ideal situation.