FMVSS 213 compliance testing

[Judi]

Been saying this for years, but it is time for a test bench upgrade.

 

[bobandjess99]

Been saying this for years, but it is time for a test bench upgrade.

Yep, and there should be a captains chair test sled, since SO many kids are riding in them in minivans.

 

[ginny4]

this sucks. I too bought into the britax is the safest choice. now i'm disappointed/upset/frustrated that the 2 ones i bought aren't as good as i expected them to be.

 

[Admin]

Serious question. I am not being sarcastic.

The Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 213 establishes requirements for carseats, and one of these requirements is a certain standard of crash performance. So how are the results not relevant, assuming any given seat fits the car and the child well and is properly installed? Why wouldn't I pick the seat with HIC numbers of, say 400 versus 800, all other things being equal?

Because they haven't been correlated to a risk of injury or death. For example, the 5-star frontal crash tests have been correlated to real life risk, with each lower star level being an increase in your chances of being fatally injured.

These compliance tests are pass/fail numbers. The sled and dummies are inherently limited but they try to pick reasonable thresholds for the types of measurements they do have. This is exactly why these numbers aren't hyped on the front page for everyone to consider when buying a child seat, like the auto crash test results are. They are a matter of public record, but they are somewhat buried since they were not intended to be used as a method of selecting a superior model.

NHTSA also has a compliance test for a rear-end crash. This is also a pass/fail test, mostly to make sure the fuel system remains intact. These results are also probably a matter of public record somewhere, but would be of limited value to compare the rear crash safety of vehicles. Models that failed would have to have that issue be resolved in order to be sold.

The NCAP type of testing done by NHTSA and TC is also not scientific to the point where the results are repeatable and significant enough to make comparisons. These agencies have clearly stated as much, in an effort to prevent these results from being used in this manner.

Tests could certainly be done that would allow a star or other rating system to be applied to carseats. These could be compared from one to the next. This would take a significant investment in time and money. The NCAP type tests are hopefully a step in this direction, but for now, there simply is no crash test information available that allows you to compare one child seat to another without very large margins of error and no information on how the results correlate to real life risk.

 

[tarabelle]

I completely get what akearney is saying, and the anger too. When I was pregnant with DD in 2007, the big seat was Britax for ease of installation, use, weight limits etc. The other option was the Radian. The big push on the birth boards, stores and the Babycenter car seat board was mostly towards Britax (and the Radian, EFTA) for seats that would last/be more bang for your buck. The impression I got was that these seats were recommended because of the ability to RF longest and general ease of use. When I initially looked at seats with DH, we tried every. single. seat. We played with harnesses, looked at weight limits, tested installs, looked at issues that would cause problems for us (is it the evenflo that requires there to be 1 1/2" between the restraint and the front seat on the infant buckets?). For convertibles, Britax won hands down.

I am truly grateful for the information that was given to me at that time. It helped me to buy our infant seat based more on performance rather than the "cute cover" or how much the seat actually weighed. For picking a seat that leaves less room for errors in daily usage and easy installation that, by all known accounts, had a stellar history and actual real life reports of children surviving accidents in their seats (no notches of death type incidents to date etc)

But that was over 2 years ago and now there are more seats that can be thrown into the mix. The TrueFit, the MyRide, Complete Air.. a higher weight limit Radian.. and Britax comes out with Click and Safe and the Advocate, and a response that they have no plans to test any current seat for higher RF limits. Seems kind of... well, vapid, IMO, for a company that was once the front runner in innovations.

I think that what is disturbing most (or at least me) is the lack of immediate response by Britax to the MT failures, the TC tests that showed failures and now these tests. Nothing to even say they will look into it. Just silence, really. This is what is generating my anger towards them. Even if, like Orbit did, they had issues with the way the seat was tested, come out and say something, anything about it.

Sorry for being so lengthy :twocents:

 

[tl01]

For me, the lack of response to particular seat failure is the biggest issue. Whether or not the failures are relevant, I still believe Britax should comment just as I felt the infant seat manufacturers needed to assure parents that their infant seats were safe when consumer reports reported many issues.

As far as Britax not striving to continue to be a leader in innovation at this point, this is not something I can be angry about. These sorts of things occur in many industries. One brand will lead for a while and then another brand will take the lead. That's fine with me. I will continue to try to understand the attributes of each seat so I can make an educated decision when I purchase my seats. Assuming a Britax seat was safe when it was purchased two years ago, then it continues to be safe. It may not have the highest rear facing weight limit but there were not many other better options 2 years ago. We sold our Blvd when DS hit the RFing limit way too early b/c by then there were higher options. Even if Britax did test their seats to a higher rear facing limit, it doesn't mean the old ones would be able to be used at this level so that leaves people with the same seat that you purchased 2 years ago.

 

[safeinthecar]

Tests could certainly be done that would allow a star or other rating system to be applied to carseats. These could be compared from one to the next. This would take a significant investment in time and money.

Not only would a rating system dramatically raise the cost point of CRs, but then you would get into the situation where parents are determined to use a "5 star" seat, regardless of whether or not that seat fit their vehicle. Parents will do strange things in an attempt to make a square peg fit in a round hole.

For me, the lack of response to particular seat failure is the biggest issue.

The compliance testing results and TC videos have only been out for a very short amount of time. Investigating these test results takes a long time. It takes months of planning and prep work just to determine the method they will use to investigate. They can't just pop a seat onto the test bench, turn on a camera and hope to get answers that way. Crash testing a car seat costs up to a million dollars (source: Randy Kaiser, formerly of Evenflo), they have to do the research and give themselves the best possible chance of recreating exactly what occurred with the fewest number of crash tests. Give it some time.The companies in question haven't made a public statement at this point because they don't yet have a statement to make.

 

[Pixels]

The companies in question haven't made a public statement at this point because they don't yet have a statement to make.

I understand that it takes time to run additional tests, etc, but at the least they could say "We are aware of the TC testing and are investigating." They haven't even bothered to say that.

 

[StillThankful]

Let's just remember the admin rule #13:

"13. Respect is the name of the game. You must respect your fellow members. Please refrain from inflammatory and defamatory comments as well as flaming, taunting, and general disrespect. Do not simply put down the opinion or advice given by others. If you don't agree with it, say why - respectfully. Don't just tell them they're wrong. Do not make uninvited remarks about typos, duplicate posts, posting styles, etc.

When an opinion-based discussion is being had, do not state things like "there is no argument" as if your opinion is the only one or the only one that matters. When someone has clearly stated their opinion, do not say things like "Are you serious?" and "Are you kidding me?" Remember, this is not a debate club. This is a friendly discussion community with the primary goal of child passenger safety education. Allow people to have their opinion. No one is to act as some sort of opinion judge, responding to each one to say whether they agree with it or not or whether or not it is a valid, well thought out opinion"

One thing we all have in common is that we are passionate about child safety. I think it is healthy for us to have this discussion but let's remember to respect each other's opinion. No one is absolutely right about everything; but rather than nit picking each other's opinion apart, just state your own opinion and be done with it.

This forum should be a comfortable place to ask questions and state opinions--not an intimidating forum where you run into cyber bullies.

We are all adults and love children in general. Let's keep that the focus of this thread.

I do have one question about these results: The results show that dummies forward face are tested U (upright) and R (reclined). Do you have the option of FFing your little one reclined?

 

[kittykate]

I do have one question about these results: The results show that dummies forward face are tested U (upright) and R (reclined). Do you have the option of FFing your little one reclined?

Some seats (the Nautilus comes to mind, as does the Scenera) have a a foot that when used (or when its not used with the Scenera) allows the seat to recline slightly when in FF mode. Others adjust in the base to allow a slight FF recline.

 

[Pixels]

In at least one case that I know of, there is an error in the summary file. It lists the ComforSport as being tested RFing with the 3yo dummy, but if you look at the actual report, the 3yo test was FFing.

 

[carseatcoach]

Some seats (the Nautilus comes to mind, as does the Scenera) have a a foot that when used (or when its not used with the Scenera) allows the seat to recline slightly when in FF mode. Others adjust in the base to allow a slight FF recline.

And check the manuals. Britax only allows FFing recline up to 33# (I think) -- which is sort of moot, because from a safety standpoint, a 33# child should be rearfacing.

 

[christineka]

And check the manuals. Britax only allows FFing recline up to 33# (I think) -- which is sort of moot, because from a safety standpoint, a 33# child should be rearfacing.

The scenera manual also only allows the seat to be in reclined mode ffing to get a proper fit- not so the child is reclined.

 

[Maedze]

This forum should be a comfortable place to ask questions and state opinions--not an intimidating forum where you run into cyber bullies.

We are all adults and love children in general. Let's keep that the focus of this thread.

If you saw an instance of 'cyber bullying' you should use the report button.

People disagreeing with you, or objecting to a characterization you've made of technicians on this board, does not constitute cyber bullying.

 

[carseatcoach]

Yes. Strong statements often get strong responses. If the strong statement was not bullying, the response isn't either.

 

[Admin]

This thread has not only been informative, but also very reasonable in terms of people politely sharing different opinions.

 

[jujumum]

I do have one question about these results: The results show that dummies forward face are tested U (upright) and R (reclined). Do you have the option of FFing your little one reclined?

The Radian & the GN have a recline feature specifically for ff, which is different than the Radian rf recline boot. Other seats have been mentioned, already.

 

[firemomof3]

OK, so here is a question for everyone;
DD2 is beginning to refuse to ride rf in her XT, its a daily battle. So, if I were to turn her forward facing which seat is going to be safest for her?! With all the numbers I cannot figure out which is going to be best
She is 3.5y/o 30lbs. and 39" tall, her seat will be tethered.

HIC Head Excursion
Young Sport 300 538
Radian XT 254 559
GN 264 508

 

[TechnoGranola]

OK, so here is a question for everyone;
DD2 is beginning to refuse to ride rf in her XT, its a daily battle.

Just curious how you know it's the RF that's bothering her? I know my 3 year old went through a stage of refusing to get in her seat (just before she turned 3), it would literally take us 20-30min in the mornings to get her in, she'd dance around the vehicle and wouldn't sit in her seat, if I put her in, she'd scream and kick so I couldn't buckle her up, it was horrid! This lasted for a couple months. Then, one day, DH was going to the store and DD wanted to go along. He told her he couldn't take her because she takes too long to get into her seat and won't cooperate. She wanted to go to the store so bad that she said she would cooperate and she did and has for the last month and a half. :thumbsup: (unless she is way overtired then we still have a bit of a struggle but only for a few minutes). :shrug-shoulders: My oldest also went through this stage at a bit younger age, but for almost 6 months! Ugh. And her seat was FF (there was no RF car seat for her back then). So, I've always thought this was a car seat issue, not a directional issue.

I am long winded, but my question is, how do you tell the difference between RF bothering her and it just being a stage they will outgrow? Do you have some others cues letting you know it's the RF that's causing the issue?

 

[joolsplus3]

OK, so here is a question for everyone;
DD2 is beginning to refuse to ride rf in her XT, its a daily battle. So, if I were to turn her forward facing which seat is going to be safest for her?! With all the numbers I cannot figure out which is going to be best
She is 3.5y/o 30lbs. and 39" tall, her seat will be tethered.

HIC Head Excursion
Young Sport 300 538
Radian XT 254 559
GN 264 508

I'd choose the one that installs best and is easiest to use properly every time. Seems like too simple of an answer, I know, but it's really the truth. I'd also probably choose the one that her head doesn't flop when sleeping. If her head is dangling forward of the wings then the seat is offering a lot less side impact protection should you get T-boned. :twocents: