FMVSS 213 compliance testing

[carseatcoach]

What exactly do you feel that they owe you for? I know that it's easy to forget with all the brand bashing, but they did pass the safety tests. As long as they pass the tests, then the design is safe. I'll admit that the TC videos made me nervous about the Marathon, but those tests were done above recommendations, and the Marathon was still deemed to be safe... therefore, I still use mine.

I agree. You may have made a choice you regret, but that's not Britax's fault. Their seats do what they claim to. They do not owe you a refund.

 

[Maedze]

I've often wondered if there were some sort of 'changing of the guard' about five-seven years back at Britax. Any comments?

Because it seems they could follow up all those great innovations with, well, a lot more great innovations

 

[crunchierthanthou]

I've often wondered if there were some sort of 'changing of the guard' about five-seven years back at Britax. Any comments?

Because it seems they could follow up all those great innovations with, well, a lot more great innovations

Tom Baloga left and I believe the Sunshine Kids director of engineering is a former Britax employee.

From Ms. Tilton's presentations and remarks at a conference I attended a couple months ago, it appears the marketing department drives many of their decisions.

 

[Maedze]

I knew that about the SK engineer. You see a lot of Britax influence in the earlier product.

I imagine 'marketing' drives most of the manufacturers' decisions. I just think Britax used to be a lot more interested in CPS and now they're more interested in selling their product.

I'd had enough the day the publicized that ridiculous ad for the advocate, claiming they were researching how to keep kids safe in side impact accidents....and showed a forward facing 12 month old.

Yeah. Done.

 

[SafeDad]

Tom Baloga left and I believe the Sunshine Kids director of engineering is a former Britax employee.

From Ms. Tilton's presentations and remarks at a conference I attended a couple months ago, it appears the marketing department drives many of their decisions.

My impression is that the direction of the company changed somewhat when Mr. Baloga left. There was a period when it was much more difficult to get information on changes in owners manuals or clarifications on new products or whatever. It was later sold to an investment group some time after that. I am impressed by current management, but like any company, they exist to make a profit and maintain employment. Sometimes, that means you can't do everything you'd like to do in terms of safety all at once.

Big box retailers do drive a lot of decisions at all the major carseat manufacturers If you don't have the blessing of their buyers, you don't get shelf space, your sales dwindle and you are not profitable. Sad, but true. When you're a small company selling through small baby stores, perhaps you don't have the same pressures as when a good percentage of your sales come from a few mega stores.

 

[SafeDad]

I'd had enough the day the publicized that ridiculous ad for the advocate, claiming they were researching how to keep kids safe in side impact accidents....and showed a forward facing 12 month old.

Yeah. Done.

And of course there is Sunshine Kids with the Mighty Tite, Dorel with the Explorer, Recaro with lockoff issue. I'm sure if you look hard enough you can find something pretty dumb for every company in terms of advertisements or products and you'd be left with nothing to buy.

 

[Maedze]

Oh, I realize that. That's why I'll still recommend a Regent if it's appropriate, or perhaps a Parkway SlideGuard for a small booster-rider. I'm not saying they don't make decent products.

By 'done', I meant that was right about when I stopped 'believing' in them with the same ardor that my son believes in Santa

 

[Maedze]

Also, I keep a Mitey Tite in my pocket. That way, if I see a Sunshine Kids representative out in public while I'm driving the Dodge I can say, "Look, come look at my Radians!"

And then, while the engineer is pretending to be interested in my Radians, I can discreetly drop the Mitey Tite on his foot.

 

[SafeDad]

Thanks for the love.

It's just that in 2007 I got the general impression that people on here loved Britax--that's not a bad thing based on what we knew then.

Sorry that my tone came off mad. I'm disappointed with Britax more than anything--not at Car-Seat org. Maybe I should have worded things better.

But I love this site and respect the people on here including all the CPSs and board. I will be back tomorrow but I'm exhausted. I feel like I've been double and triple banked and I don't have the energy anymore to keep explaining myself.

You could pose similar situations and probably get quite a few varying impressions from the resulting threads. That's today, let alone a few years ago when the competition was different. Everyone has their own preferences- techs, advocates, moderators, you name it. Some specific piece of information in a post might trigger someone to suggest one particular product, even though others may work just as well. That's the nature of forums like this one; there is rarely a consensus no matter how detailed your information request is.

Ultimately, regardless of the opinions you use to help you make a choice, no one can tell you what will work best for your kids, your vehicle or you. Those issues are a lot more important than whether or not a particular model barely meets or misses a tethered excursion limit without a tether. With the recent Orbit/Consumer Reports fiasco, we've seen that there are clearly variations from one test to another. If your carseat is properly installed and used in the back seat according to instructions, my opinion is that you should not have any concern in regard to the NHTSA compliance test results unless a gross failure of some type was indicated.

 

[cpsaddict]

I agree. I does bite. I kind of feel betrayed for some reason--a little helpless in a sense. Furthermore, I went from only wanting Britax car seats to now looking at anything but Britax. I am only using NCAP tested seats now--MR and Radians. I don't have these seats yet--they are in the mail, but I hope I like them. Why didn't you like the Radian?

The Radian was heavy and annoying with the rf boot. The folding is worthless with the boot on. It doesn't sit up by itself when not installed, so the back got all wet when it fell over in the rain. The chest clip is/was awful. I know I could switch to a Britax clip, which I did, but there's an additional expense. It installed well in my car, but not in others, so I could not guarantee everyone using it could install it.
I have talked with DH about this and he made some good points, so we are going with a Signo and a Marathon. For now, these meet our needs. We looked at the My Ride today and both agree we don't like it. The cover is cheaply made and IMO, so is the shell. I do like the harness adjuster

 

[a_js]

It's a lot of fun brand-bashing, but I'd like to give you some perspective. I'm an old-timer. I've been in CPS either researching for my own child or out of general interest for over 9 years now. I've seen a lot of changes and many of them have come about because of Britax.

Britax has been innovative. They had rear-facing tethers long before anyone could wrap their heads around them. Remember the Roundabout? It had/s the smoothest harness adjuster around. Some of us can't bear to part with our long expired RAs--I wonder why. Britax was the first company around that had a selection of cute covers from which to choose for their seats--remember Flower Power? You had to pay a premium on eBay to get that cover and they almost always sold out immediately. Built-in lockoffs to replace locking clips, easily removed covers, non-twist straps, 5-point harnesses (!), easy to install, etc. These were all innovations that helped push other companies to develop the seats you now love. It took years for SK to come out with the Radian (and the Radian still doesn't have lockoffs). Graco only recently put built-in lockoffs on their infant seats and has only recently come out with a seat, the GN, that has been a hit. The TrueFit is a competitor to the MA that has MA-like features.

I'm not dismissing the numbers on the compliance testing--they've always been there. This is nothing new. No need to panic. Use the seat properly and do your jobs as advocates to teach other parents to use their seats properly.

But remember that you are in a public part of our forums and while you are certainly allowed to have opinions, bashing a brand of carseats accomplishes nothing. All manufacturers have their good points and their bad points and all are constantly striving to improve their products.

I want to respond to this since I've been pretty vocal in my displeasure with the Regent's test numbers.

I totally commend Britax for everything they've done--they've paved the way for what we have now and deserve credit for that. I loved our Roundabout, too. But now there are other companies doing things just as well and in some cases going one better--without the high price tag. Just a few years ago I had to turn my then 20 month old FF because he was at the weight limit for his Wizard (which was an awesome seat, BTW). Now there are a lot more options. He would have been RF till at least 4 years old if we had then what we have now. Britax has some stiff competition these days and I also have to say, and I know this is controversial, there is NO reason a seat with their reputation shouldn't pass NHTSA or TC testing with flying colors. None.

 

[Kecia]

As I've said before...

Numbers are interesting. Certainly worthy of discussion. However, if the general public had any idea how fickle they really were and how much they varied from test to test, they wouldn't (and shouldn't) lose any sleep over them.

If you were happy with your carseat last week - don't be any less happy this week just because you looked at a bunch of numbers that are in no way indicative of the level of crash protection that your child would receive from this CR in an actual crash.

Like Heather and Darren and Julie and Ulrike, I've been around this block a few times already. I can't speak for the others but 213 compliance test data doesn't worry me or impress me.

Wanna know what impresses me?

When 3 floors of a parking garage collapse on top of it - but the Radian doesn't budge: http://www.car-seat.org/showthread.php?t=90385

When the minivan gets hit head-on by a freight train but the child in the Britax convertible doesn't have so much as a scrape: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOelrDX8Fjk"]YouTube- Child Survives Head-on Collision with Train: A Lesson in Car Seat Safety[/ame]

When a Camry flips and rolls end over end, ejecting the driver and crushing the vehicle roof - yet the 1 year old FF in the Britax Regent is okay: http://www.car-seat.org/showthread.php?t=77586 (see video in link)

THOSE are the things that impress me.

If you get too hung up on numbers - you may actually start to believe that a 3 year old forward-facing in a reclined Scenera OHS installed with lower anchors and top tether is better off than the same 3 year old FF in a reclined Recaro Signo installed with lower anchors and top tether. Seems like a pretty ridiculous comparison, doesn't it?

Seriously, look at the numbers. Digest them, discuss them, make comparisons if you feel the need. Then put them into perspective and forget about them.

 

[jujumum]

I'm not brand bashing, and I don't think akearney3 is either. I have a right, as does anyone else does, to be upset and disapointed with a company that we trust our children's lives with that (in our opinion) has let us down. A company that sells a product (that we bought) with extensive claims on its web site how great and superior their products are, but then makes no comment when several videos of their products failing are released. Are they ever going to say anything about the TC videos?

I've bought 10 Britax seats, 8 of which I still own, and 5 of which I'm currently using. I have a ton of money invested in Britax seats. I didn't buy these because of status - I bought them because I believed that they were a superior product over less expensive seats and I wasn't going skimp on my children's safety. After many months here, with threads like this one, I'm learning that most expensive isn't necessary better.

I still think Britax seats fit my car great, have awesome covers, are easy to install and still love how easy they are to use. My son will continue to rf in the convertibles, but I have lost faith in Britax ff convertibles.

 

[a_js]

a bunch of numbers that are in no way indicative of the level of crash protection that your child would receive from this CR in an actual crash.

Serious question. I am not being sarcastic.

The Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 213 establishes requirements for carseats, and one of these requirements is a certain standard of crash performance. So how are the results not relevant, assuming any given seat fits the car and the child well and is properly installed? Why wouldn't I pick the seat with HIC numbers of, say 400 versus 800, all other things being equal?

 

[TheNimpsGirl]

Very interesting numbers. That being said, it's a bit much to handle/go through because of the volume of data. I'm not sure I would use that information or even comment on it to a parent that had questions between seats that just wanted basic information, it would be too overwhelming but for parents who want more detailed information it could be useful (or a cause for migraines and anxiety attacks which is why I'm gonna close the file and remind myself DS's seats are installed properly and leave my worries at that).

 

[Judi]

I'm hoping this is true. I wish I could feel them both to see if the MT also has the sort of blown plastic shell that the Frontier has.

Yes, it is blown. I have um, seen one. Here are a couple pics:

you see, though, it is different. More to it.

 

[InternationalMama]

Re: the MT vs. Frontier comparison. Britax also makes a forward facing only seat in Europe called the Evolva 1-2-3 that looks to me -exactly- like the Multi-Tech except that it doesn't rear face and so doesn't have the foot prop at the back of it and as I understand it that foot prop at the back really effects the forward facing installation (according to a poster here Lena who owns one) and Judi's pics.

I'm -guessing- the Evolva 1-2-3 and Multi-Tech also perform differently in crash tests because the Evolva 1-2-3 is certified for use to 36kg (80 lbs) as a booster while the Multi-Tech is only certified to 25kg (55 lbs) as a booster. My thinking is just: If the Multi-Tech could pass to 36kg wouldn't they want to certify it to that level? If it didn't pass there must be some significant difference between the two seats, I'm guessing something to do with the foot prop because that's the only difference I know of.

Although the foot prop thing is just a guess, I would say that if you want to compare a EU Britax seat and the associated ADAC testing and crash test footage to the Frontier I would look at data for the Evolva 1-2-3 rather than the Multi-Tech because I think the Multi-Tech really does install very differently than the Frontier because of the housing of the foot prop. I know this is a bit off-topic of the thread, but it is at least about the value of comparisons and crash test data. I'd be interested to hear what others think.

 

[kittykate]

Serious question. I am not being sarcastic.

The Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 213 establishes requirements for carseats, and one of these requirements is a certain standard of crash performance. So how are the results not relevant, assuming any given seat fits the car and the child well and is properly installed? Why wouldn't I pick the seat with HIC numbers of, say 400 versus 800, all other things being equal?

Because unless you drive a test sled, the number don't transfer to real life use. If the Transit Canada testing showed anything, it was that the same restraint can perform very differently depending on the vehicle it is installed in.

So if you purchase a Nautilus to use untethered in your car over a Radian because it has better number on the test bench, there is no way to know if the seats will perform the same way in your vehicle. The results could be the same, or they could be reversed. We don't know.

If it makes you fell better to purchase a seat based on this testing, then go ahead and do it, but I personally think it is too much of a leap to assume that all of the tested carseats would perform exactly the same way they did in the FMVSS 213 compliance testing as they would in real vehicles. :twocents:

 

[carseatcoach]

Because unless you drive a test sled, the number don't transfer to real life use. If the Transit Canada testing showed anything, it was that the same restraint can perform very differently depending on the vehicle it is installed in.

So if you purchase a Nautilus to use untethered in your car over a Radian because it has better number on the test bench, there is no way to know if the seats will perform the same way in your vehicle. The results could be the same, or they could be reversed. We don't know.

If it makes you fell better to purchase a seat based on this testing, then go ahead and do it, but I personally think it is too much of a leap to assume that all of the tested carseats would perform exactly the same way they did in the FMVSS 213 compliance testing as they would in real vehicles. :twocents:

I agree with this. I don't think these numbers are the be-all and end-all. But I also think that if seat A showed significantly better performance than seat B on five out of five tests, that is a point of information to throw in the mix along with everything else we know. Like every other point of information, knowledgeable seat shoppers will attach different weight to that point.

 

[LISmama810]

Remember the Chicago Tribune article about how child restraints fared in the crash testing of actual cars?

IIRC, the Combi infant seat kept flying off the base in the real cars, but never did on the test bench. It was determined that the shape (or something) of the actual vehicle seat caused the infant seat to perform differently than it did on the sled.

(Incidentally, after that Combi hired an engineer to design a test bench for them that more accurately resembles a real seat, and they now test their restraints on both benches.)

I don't know that the 213 tests are MEANINGLESS, but I don't know how meaningful they are either. Unfortunately change happens slowly when you're dealing with bureaucracies, so who knows when/if the testing criteria will ever change.