When someone comes through a clinic

[dragonfly8]

with a very old and expired seat they are using, what do you do?

Another tech and myself are doing a clinic next week and we have been given the heads up that someone with "real old seats" may be attending. This person has 3 kids in seats, not sure if they are boosters or harnessed seats yet, but would like some advice on what, as a tech, the best advice would be if in fact they are expired.

Other than the obvious letting her know they are expired and unsafe/illegal to use, what do YOU do when you come across old seats being used?

 

[QuassEE]

You do everything you normally would, while advising the parents that the seat is expired and explaining to them why they should replace the seat. Then you document.

My mantra is this:

"SAFER, not safest."

Safest is a pipe dream.

-N.

 

[birdflippin']

When and where will this clinic be? I want to tell my neighbour to go. I've been slowly correcting her horrible use but she needs a strong push before #2 arrives.

 

[dragonfly8]

When and where will this clinic be? I want to tell my neighbour to go. I've been slowly correcting her horrible use but she needs a strong push before #2 arrives.

It's actually a clinic we're holding specifically for a mom's group, but I can see if we have room for one more. I'm not sure on how many people are expected as of yet, hopefully I'll have an idea by Friday night. It will be in Winnipeg, next Tuesday morning........

Feel free to send me a PM here and I can always meet up with your neighbor if need be at another time, I'd love to help!

A fellow CRST and myself try to hold clinic's a every few months, but with summer on the way it might not be as frequent as we'd like.

 

[Misty-Bug]

I second what Nicole said.

All you can do is inform the parent that the seats are expired, why they should be replaced and the dangers of using an expired seat. Once you have told them that you go through the recalls and make sure they aren't recalled. Then you go over the seat and make sure that it is installed properly.

All we can do is recommend things to parents, teach them how to use the seats they do have, give them info to contact us further if need be and inform. If you deal with expired seats it is better for them to leave with them properly installed then not in anything. Unfortunately we can't replace seats for everyone. You can only guide the parent.

ETA: and always have the parent be the one to install the seat as they are leaving (as you know). Have a piece of paper ready so you can right seat recommendations and where to get them from as well

 

[snowbird25ca]

I have a slightly different take on this and while I can't tell you what to do, I'll share my thoughts with you.

- There comes a point where a seat is going to fail due to it's age. Are you truly "helping" a parent by fixing their seat up as best you can when it's going to fail no matter what, or are you giving them a false sense of security?

- There is the additional issue of liability. Parents hear a lot at a clinic and if they only remember "this is better" part and don't hear the "replace this seat immediately part," then they may feel better that their child is riding safer.

In my opinion, there is a different between safeR vs. unsafe, and there comes a point where a seat is truly unsafe. If we're talking a month past expiry, it's very different than if we're talking a 15yr old seat. In all honesty, if a seat was 15 yrs old, I would verbally give the parent some information, but I would not touch that seat.

I have to post some pictures of a booster I saw just a few weeks ago that was expired and is just 10 yrs old. (And these boosters had an 8 yr lifespan when they were sold.) The plastic had started breaking at the back, and when a fellow tech stepped on it, the plastic ripped and it broke in half. (We had just replaced the booster with a non-expired one and the parent was right there and had given permission, lol. It was a rather fun experiment I have to admit.)

So long story short - are you helping or hurting by assisting in the use of a very old seat? I won't touch European seats that come in to a clinic either, and wouldn't touch a US seat if I knew from the start that it wasn't Canadian. There comes a point where a tech is responsible for putting the responsibility back on the parent before proper assistance can be given. In my opinion a 15 year old seat is just that.

There's a difference between safer vs. safest compared to potentially deadly. At what point you make that judgment is something that I can't tell you, but I can tell you that it's appropriate to make that judgment at some point.

 

[dragonfly8]

Snowbird, would you be able to email me some photos of old seats and what actually DOES happen to the plastic?
I'll try to PM you my email address, but I know the PM part of CS.Org doesn't always work.

I do not want to be liable for helping to install something that shouldn't be used, nor do I want to feel like maybe I've done something to make any child unsafer because of my actions.

The other CRST and I have been discussing it and we have decided we will not do any more for this parent than to educate them as to why (if of course they are as old as what we're being told they might be) it's unsafe and what can happen.
And to let them know that once they have seats that are not expired and unsafe, they are more than welcome to contact one or both of us to help them out!

Off to try to PM you, if you don't get anything from me, please let me know?

 

[snowbird25ca]

Pictures of the booster I mentioned. (my pictures, parent gave permission to share.)

The first picture with the cover on is what the seat looked like before it was stepped on. 2nd picture Is also a "before" from the inside with the cover off. 3rd shows the expiry date, and the last shows what happened when it was stepped on. (Don't mind my feet in the last picture, lol)

Sent from my iPhone using Car-Seat.Org

 

[Jewels]

When and where will this clinic be? I want to tell my neighbour to go. I've been slowly correcting her horrible use but she needs a strong push before #2 arrives.

I see you are in MB.
Featherhead and I host a clinic on the 2nd tuesday of every month at our local fire hall in southern MB. If you want exact location details send one of us a pm.

 

[TechnoGranola]

Okay wait, that's the expiry date? Or did you mean the DOM? And is it Feb. 16 01? Or Jan. 16 02?

Confusing; would be easier if it used the Canadian ISO format YYYY-MM-DD. But that seat has the date in the middle so make it seem like its MM DD YY.

Sent from my iPhone using Car-Seat.Org

 

[birdflippin']

I see you are in MB.
Featherhead and I host a clinic on the 2nd tuesday of every month at our local fire hall in southern MB. If you want exact location details send one of us a pm.

She has enough trouble finding her way to WPG, I doubt she'd find M/W Is there a tech in Steinbach? That would be the easiest for her.

 

[danivdp]

I'm not a tech, but I'd never help or show someone how to install an expired seat. Sounds like a big liability.

 

[Misty-Bug]

I still am thinking in terms with Nicole. Not so sure Trudy although I DO get what you are saying.

But what do you do? send them away saying the seat is expired and don't touch it? When we have seats come in that have an expiry or a recall we don't automatically say - oh that seat is _________ it is junk and it cannot be used so I can't help you today. Or do we as techs say, "that seat is __________ and I do not recommend you using it anymore, I would leave today and get a new seat. However, let's make sure that the child is at least safe as you are departing and here are some numbers for a new seat and what I recommend."

I do get the whole if it is expired don't use it, but it is better to teach them how to make sure it fits the child, why it is expired and then show them how to install the seat making sure that we tell them again why it is expired, and that the new seat will be a bit different. If we don't have seats to give out better to make sure they are safe in the seat, no matter how expired, give them our card and reiterate many times that they HAVE to get it replaced.

I have had seats with recalls and stuff but we don't take the seats away on the spot because then what are the kids going to leave in? The point is to get them safely to their destination whether it be a store or home. Better to have it done then and know it is installed right, the kid is sitted right then to leave how they came in.

I'm not a tech, but I'd never help or show someone how to install an expired seat. Sounds like a big liability.

sure it may be a liability, but anything is. Make sure you write expired seat on the form. Better to have it installed properly then not. It is a lose lose situation but better to make one of the losses a little less painful. I would never turn someone away.

 

[snowbird25ca]

Okay wait, that's the expiry date? Or did you mean the DOM? And is it Feb. 16 01? Or Jan. 16 02?

Confusing; would be easier if it used the Canadian ISO format YYYY-MM-DD. But that seat has the date in the middle so make it seem like its MM DD YY.

Sent from my iPhone using Car-Seat.Org

That's the DOM, and I think it's probably an 01 DOM meaning my math was wrong when i first posted and it's 11yrs not 10 yrs old, lol. I'm not 100% sure though and it didn't say a date anywhere else on it.

Misty - I'm not suggesting confiscating a seat. But this is my question - and these are mostly rhetorical questions not directed at you as much as to designed to make you think... if a seat is going to fail, are you making a child any safer by making sure it's in right and they're harnessed properly in it? If the straps are going to rip through or the belt path is going to break or something - does it matter what you do? Have you truly helped by making them think their child is at least a little safer? Is their child actually safer or does it just make you feel better because you've done something?

A recalled seat is a different story - many recalls only affect a seat under specific circumstances and you can do things to either eliminate or reduce the risk until a parent gets a recall kit. It's a rare recall that tells you to not use the seat at all in any mode until the recall kit is received - it happens, but it's not a regular thing.

I have refused to book an appointment with a parent before because I knew in advance that it was a US seat. If I know a family has a 10 yr old seat, I won't book an appointment until they replace the seat.

Clinics are a different story, and I can't tell anyone else where to make the cut-off. But there's comes a point where fixing a situation as best you can when a seat is very expired or otherwise damaged is little more than putting a bandaid over a wound that needs stitches. Sure the bandaid might help a small amount, but it's not going to stop the bleeding. If a seat is so old that it's going to fail structurally, does it matter if the harness is adjusted properly and the seat installed properly to begin with? Should a parent feel their child is safer when they're really in just as much danger as before? Have you actually helped?

I'm never going to take away a seat or anything like that. But in the end, the safe transportation of the child is the parents' responsibility. They come to you for information and assistance, and if the appropriate answer is that the seat needs to be replaced and verbally pointing out a few things, the rest is up to them to follow-up on. There are always hard decisions and hard situations, and sometimes you're going to do something in one situation and after thinking about it for a few hours or a few days, you're going to think perhaps the alternative would've been better.

Time and experience teach many things - but a technician should never be in a position where they feel they must help someone even if they aren't sure they are actually helping... There are times where you can't help somebody with what you have available.

It reminds me of a clinic a year ago where there were 2 kids and only 1 appropriate seat. There were a few techs working on the vehicle, and there was a great deal of debate about the circumstances and trying to figure out the "best of the worst." Out of the 4 or 5 techs that were eventually debating the situation when I came along, all of them had gotten so caught up in trying to figure out which bad choice was the better choice, that none of them had considered asking if a parent could go and get a new seat or if they could take a bus or walk home etc. When I brought up the suggestion, it turned out that they were walking distance from home and that the kids didn't actually need to both ride in the vehicle prior to proper carseats being purchased.

There are times we have to tell people their seats are incompatible, and times that we have to tell them that they can't safely transport all their kids in the vehicle they want to use. An extremely expired seat is no different in my opinion.