Question Third row in a wagon...legal in VA?

[cevamal]

We're buying a '98 Audi with a rear-facing third row. The seats go up to 70 lbs or 4'9".

I have two girls, 5 and 3. Both are tall and of average weight. I don't need to use the seats on a daily basis but it would be nice to be able to use them for the 5+ crowd when carpooling around town.

I've done a bunch of research here and elsewhere and chatted with emandbri and am confident the seats will be safe since they're designed for children. I believe I can't use a booster with them as boosters are only tested in FF seats.

What I can't figure out is whether they're legal. Here's VA's car seat law.

Thoughts? Thoughts on who else to ask? Can I just take the car & kids to the police station and ask them? Would they even know the finer points of the law? I was once pulled over for having my daughter in her Britax in the front seat of my CRX (which has no air bags and no back seat). The officer was very apologetic and had no idea the CRX didn't have a back seat.

(FTR the girls' regular seat are a Marathon and a Boulevard, I'd just like to be able to use the back for the occasional carpool.)

 

[Pixels]

The only people who can legally ride in those rear-facing seats in VA are children (and adults) over the age of 8. The law says that children must be in a CSR up to age 8, and no restraint will let you install on a rear-facing or side-facing seat.

As far as asking the police goes, well, police are not lawyers nor judges. One can hope that the police would know the laws, but all too often they don't, especially not the finer details. In the end, if you were to be cited, it is up to the judge, who will know the law and all its details.

FWIW, I'd be more comfortable with a backless booster in a rear-facing seat than a hbb or convertible. There is nothing behind the child's back that hasn't been tested RFing. The booster is really just there to help the lap and shoulder belts sit properly. :twocents:

 

[LISmama810]

The only people who can legally ride in those rear-facing seats in VA are children (and adults) over the age of 8. The law says that children must be in a CSR up to age 8, and no restraint will let you install on a rear-facing or side-facing seat.

That's how I read it, too. Children must be in some type of child restraint (harness or booster) until 8 years old. No child restraint will let you install it on a rear-facing vehicle seat. Therefore, your children cannot legally ride there.

Besides the legal aspect, there's also the safety aspect. Many children are not ready to be in just a seatbelt by 8 years old. Even though riding rear-facing (for anyone) is safer than forward-facing, there are still issues like how the seatbelt fits and how the child fits on the seat. Also, are there headrests on the rear-facing row?

 

[LISmama810]

Just for further clarification, is this a factory-installed third row, or an aftermarket third row? (I only ask because you say it was designed for children, and there are companies who use that term to sell aftermarket third rows.)

 

[skaterbabs]

The only people who can legally ride in those rear-facing seats in VA are children (and adults) over the age of 8. The law says that children must be in a CSR up to age 8, and no restraint will let you install on a rear-facing or side-facing seat.

Just for further clarification, is this a factory-installed third row, or an aftermarket third row? (I only ask because you say it was designed for children, and there are companies who use that term to sell aftermarket third rows.)

Assuming this is a factory seat, if said child under 8 passes the Five Step Test in the third row, you're not *likely* to be cited, however it is illegal.

Using a backless booster on the RF seat would be illegal in Virginia because the statute requires proper use. In other words, the backless booster says don't do it, therefor you can be ticketed for using it on the RF seat. Again, it's not likely.

Legally speaking, only children over 8 and adults can use the seat. That's a great option for older kids. And typically these seats fit children very well, so they often pass the 5 Step Test sooner - around 8 vs. 10 or 12.

Most 8 year olds do not pass the 5 Step Test in most vehicles and because of the proper use clause, you could be cited for a small 12 yo (or even older, up to 16) if the seatbelt is not used properly and if it doesn't fit.

Again, you aren't likely to be cited, but if you get an officer well-versed in CPS and the law, and he gets irritated enough with a parent, he could legally ticket for an older child not in a booster. It doesn't happen often.

This is a case in which you have to decide whether it's worth it to you to make a parental decision to use a backless against manufacturer's instructions or put a child in that 6-8 yo age range who does possibly pass the Five Step Test (paying close attention to the lap belt) ride without a booster.

 

[Kat_Momof3]

yeah to all that!

I've had to make that kind of parental decision and, because of how short the factory installed bench was in my MIL's old Taurus wagon, made the decision (even though he passed the 5-step test... BARELY) because it was a long 10-12hr trip and, once they got there, he wouldn't have to sit in the back row or even in that vehicle, again till he came back, to have him use a highback booster.

It was back when Ruthie was little... 1yr old... and Damian normally rode in the Regent with boosters as spares, but he was very good in them. I had let him ride in a seatbelt in my bil's car that had the super tiny backseat where he passed before, but it had headrests AND it was short trips.

I really felt that for a long trip where I KNEW he would sleep (when they got there, MIL confirmed he'd dozed off after the first hour and slept the whole way) he needed the support of a booster for his head.

factory installed benches like that are safe for the age and size allotted, but no restraints are approved to be installed, so it's really a big flip of the coin on what you end up deciding to do.

My MIL got a Van the next year, so he literally NEVER rode that way except for the trip up and the trip back, and I don't regret the decision, but I do wish that there was more thought into those seats, because people still have vehicles with them and the newer station wagons don't have them, which makes them no more advantageous to own than a sedan.

I don't know what I'd do in your case, but it'll be a parental decision. If it's like around here, though, where I see kids riding totally unrestrained at times, I doubt the cops will even care, if they notice.

 

[safeinthecar]

Even if the children fit in the third row, and even if they are old enough to legally ride without a seat, you have to think about the fact that you will not be able to see these rfing children to see if they are staying buckled up and in the correct positions. Do you know these children well enough to trust them without being able to check on them?

 

[Guest]

I've done a bunch of research here and elsewhere and chatted with emandbri and am confident the seats will be safe since they're designed for children. I believe I can't use a booster with them as boosters are only tested in FF seats.

I'm curious as to what research you're talking about. Car makers often say their 3rd row is "designed for children" only because their market research told them they needed a 3rd row and the only way they could fit a 3rd row in their existing chassis is with a tiny seat that could only comfortably seat a small child. So, it's only designed for children because that's all that will fit in them physically, not that they were designed to safely carry the children.

 

[Tyler'sMom1117]

I used to have a Ford station wagon with the third row that faced the back. In the manual it said to NOT use it with car seats. It also couldn't be used when the child's shoulders went above the seat back. None of my 3 kids could ride back there because 1 was in a car seat and 2 were too tall. You might want to check the manual and see what it says.

 

[cevamal]

Also, are there headrests on the rear-facing row?

Yes, sorry, I'd intended to post a picture:

It is factory installed.

Do you know these children well enough to trust them without being able to check on them?

Yes. My kids are total safety rangers and panic if I so much as pull from the garage to the driveway before they're fully buckled, or if they think an adult isn't buckled. My daughter would absolutely not mess with her seatbelt and would tattle in a heartbeat if a friend did.

I'm curious as to what research you're talking about.

I said I'd been researching, not that I'd read research. Just me and my buddy google.

Car makers often say their 3rd row is "designed for children" only because their market research told them they needed a 3rd row and the only way they could fit a 3rd row in their existing chassis is with a tiny seat that could only comfortably seat a small child. So, it's only designed for children because that's all that will fit in them physically, not that they were designed to safely carry the children.

That's an interesting point, thanks.

What's the deal with cars with built-in carseats? Why are those different?

I said "designed for children" because the seat only goes up to 70 lbs and 4'9". My girls are likely to outgrow that at 8.

 

[emandbri]

My computer is working and I'm feeling better so now I can answer! lol

I honestly wouldn't worry about getting pulled over, like others said cops don't pull over cars with kids bouncing around a car, I don't seem them pulling you over. Yes, technically you would be breaking the law but since the seats are smaller and you can't use a car seat or booster there it really should be an exception to the law. The problem is there are SOOOO few station wagons out there with rear-facing seats they didn't put the exception in the law.

If they do pull tou over you can show them the owner's manual that says that the seats are designed for children, the weight limits, and that you can't use a booster or car seat there. I'm fairly sure that they would just let you go. You could also just tell the cop she is 8.

I'm not sure if some of the the people responding understand that the seats really are smaller and designed for children. A friend of mine had a taurus wagon and the kids really did fit fine there. Jacob would have been 4 and 5 when he used the seat and Daniel did once when he was 5 as well. I was a already a tech at that point I wouldn't have let them use the seats if they didn't fit in them correctly, I really wish I had pictures! I didn't have the issue of the legality problem though since at the time Missouri's law was until 4.

The taurus started at 40 lbs and the volvos at 50 so it the OP younger daughter wouldn't be able to use it until she got older and heavier anyway. I know that the OP daughter has been using the booster as a spare so she is already knows that she needs to keep the seat belt buckled etc. That is a good point though and I would have put the younger daughter (in a few years) in a booster a few times in the middle seat so you can watch her before letting her go to the back where you can't see what she is doing.

 

[emandbri]

Here is another thread where the rear-facing volvo seats are discussed. It is an older thread though.

http://www.car-seat.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=979

I really would be fine putting my kids there. Actually this thread is making me wish I had gotten Brian a station wagon instead of the Camry. It would make it easier if I had to take 4 kids in his car. As it is I would have to put Jacob in the front seat, I would be fine with that (he is 12, 5 foot 2, and 120 lbs) but I haven't been in a situation where I had to do that though.

 

[Kat_Momof3]

I agree... I don't think the safety of the seating itself should be in question.

For me, when it was my kid, my only worry was lack of headsupport, so that's why we went with a booster.

He was 6 and definitely didn't need it for belt positioning in that seat, though he wasn't quite the giant he is now (he had his HUGE growth spurt when he got home and outgrew the Regent and most boosters at that point)

I think it comes down to pros and cons and I honestly think that a child that will sit properly and behave is safe there, when seating requires.

Damian definitely knew the rules of seatbelts and, for me, since it was factory-installed, it was merely an issue of sleep support and head support. Obviously, a hbb solved this.

Now, the giant boy is already too big for most of those types of seats at age 8, but (and I say this for the benefit of the OP), MOST 8yr olds (more than 98% of the growth chart... my kid is OFF the charts for height) and even 9-10yr olds will not be 4'9"

So most kids can sit there longer than my big guy.

 

[BW1426]

These seats aren't for adults, unless said adult is very small. All of the third row seats RFing seats in wagons I have seen (which I admit is not many) have had a maximum weight limit. I believe the Volvo limit is 80 lbs. After 80 lbs you cannot use those seats anymore.

Also, to the PP that mentioned using a booster seat on these RFing seats, I doubt the backless booster (I wouldn't even consider trying a HBB) would fit well because the seats are shallower and designed differently than a regular seat.

 

[Kat_Momof3]

when I had Damian use the highback (again... no headrest scared me more than the idea of no sleep support when he was still using a Regent in my car because he tended to flop horribly when he slept in a booster), it was the Bolero (I only had 1 Turbobooster and I put Jeffrey in that, because there were no top tethers and she had to fit another turbobooster and a teenager in the 2nd row... and I knew she'd be putting the seats in my sil's car and maybe my sil's husband's car, so I didn't want her having to install the Regent.

Anyway... it was the Bolero and the whole seat (except for that edge that wasn't actually part of the base... I hope you know what I'm referring to... it hung over my bench in the caravan when I had tested it out there) fit on the rf bench just fine.

I also locked the belt on him (MIL's wagon had locking retractors... it was older, though... so not sure about newer models)