KDM clarification

[bombedier]

Again, I direct you to the foundation website and the information posted on why the foundation encourages children to remain in a 5 point harness. The message began as one of seatbelt failure, but with time, maturity and knowledge grew into so much more.

There is certain information the family chose to keep private for concerns about legal action. It is also their sole discretion on what information about the crash that they want to advertise. The purpose of the foundation is not to defend their claim that the seatbelt failed, it is to keep other children safe - a very different mission.

Yes, they do want to pursue the seatbelt issue, however that is a much longer term goal - the more immediate impact that we can and have been able to make is to have parents keep their children harnessed and to assist needy families.

So please - do read the information presented on why the foundation encourages parents to keep a child harnessed - it is quite different from the opinion you have formed from watching the video.

 

[dhardawa]

I will admit, much of the rationale I have assumed is from the video. They were very adamant in that that a tether would have saved him. Did the seatbelt fail? Maybe. Unlikely, but maybe. It is much more likely that it was unbuckled, due to misuse of the booster, or simply wasn't fully engaged to begin with. I can understand keeping some things private, but making a claim like they did without anything to back it up is opening yourself up to legal action and doubt by professionals. If they are okay with this, more power to them.

I'm glad they have done what they have. There are thousands of kids back in harnessed seats due to the publicity they have created. I hope I have made that very clear. Instead of wallowing in self pity the way I would they have, quite literally, changed the world.

 

[bombedier]

Actually, what they are adamant about is that a 5 point harness car seat LATCHED to the vehicle would have saved him - not just a top tether. Splitting hairs maybe, but important hairs. It is important to correctly quote the material. They do stress to always use top tether in the video yes.....and isn't this exactly what we as technicians also advise (perhaps from a different motivational standpoint?).

The mission is the same, the goal the same.

 

[scatterbunny]

Actually, what they are adamant about is that a 5 point harness car seat LATCHED to the vehicle would have saved him - not just a top tether. Splitting hairs maybe, but important hairs.

And the problem is that the LATCH limit for most vehicles is 40/48 pounds. Very few have 60 pound limits, or no stated limits. So most families must discontinue LATCH (or at least lower anchors) at 40/48 pounds, yet the main message is to harness beyond that weight.

So parents are, understandably, confused. NHTSA said (at Lifesavers) they are working with vehicle manufacturers to try to get LATCH tested and certified, across the board, to at least 65 pounds. That would be a HUGE improvement.

 

[ZephyrBlue]

They were very adamant in that that a tether would have saved him.

While I wholeheartedly admire what the Miller family has done in the face of their horrible loss, this has always bothered me, too. I have refrained from referring to the incident where Kyle lost his life when trying to convince people to use HWH seats, because if you read the website, it talks about how the seatbelt failed, but a 5pt harness seat, top tether, airbags and seatbelt would have definately saved his life; there is no doubt that an appropriately used harness is safer than a booster, but it seems very incongrous to say that seatbelt failure caused Kyle's death, but a 5pt harness secured with a seatbelt and top tether would have saved him. It's hard enough to convince some people to harness past 40lbs, but when you give them info. like that, it sounds like we (those of us who believe strongly in EH) are just fanatics, throwing around info. that may or may not be credible. :twocents:

 

[bombedier]

And the problem is that the LATCH limit for most vehicles is 40/48 pounds. Very few have 60 pound limits, or no stated limits. So most families must discontinue LATCH (or at least lower anchors) at 40/48 pounds, yet the main message is to harness beyond that weight.

So parents are, understandably, confused. NHTSA said (at Lifesavers) they are working with vehicle manufacturers to try to get LATCH tested and certified, across the board, to at least 65 pounds. That would be a HUGE improvement.

Indeed - very true. I understand NHTSA have been talking about this for over a year - and there was some talk of tests being conducted last year about LATCH above the 40/48 usual limit - haven't seen anything on that. Hopefully it will be sooner rather than later!

 

[bombedier]

While I wholeheartedly admire what the Miller family has done in the face of their horrible loss, this has always bothered me, too. I have refrained from referring to the incident where Kyle lost his life when trying to convince people to use HWH seats, because if you read the website, it talks about how the seatbelt failed, but a 5pt harness seat, top tether, airbags and seatbelt would have definately saved his life; there is no doubt that an appropriately used harness is safer than a booster, but it seems very incongrous to say that seatbelt failure caused Kyle's death, but a 5pt harness secured with a seatbelt and top tether would have saved him. It's hard enough to convince some people to harness past 40lbs, but when you give them info. like that, it sounds like we (those of us who believe strongly in EH) are just fanatics, throwing around info. that may or may not be credible. :twocents:

As you can imagine, I receive a number in inquiries about this and generally, referring parents to our section on why a 5 point harness is safer is more than enough to convince them about the benefits for EH.

 

[dhardawa]

Actually, what they are adamant about is that a 5 point harness car seat LATCHED to the vehicle would have saved him - not just a top tether. Splitting hairs maybe, but important hairs. It is important to correctly quote the material. They do stress to always use top tether in the video yes.....and isn't this exactly what we as technicians also advise (perhaps from a different motivational standpoint?).

The mission is the same, the goal the same.

This is what I have issue with and is taken directly from their informational phamplet.

Whether you use the lower anchors or the seatbelt to secure your child’s 5-
point harness car seat, ALWAYS use the TOP TETHER!! It offers a second line
of protection against ejection should the seatbelt or lower anchors fail.

A tether is NOT a second line of protection for if the seatbelt or LATCH anchors fail.

 

[bombedier]

Agreed from a technical perspective of the intent of a top tether. Would you not agree that it could prevent a seat from being ejected though? I know you cited crash testing above from Australia was it (?) and I can see how the dynamics would work where the seat would be slammed into the roof of the car with only top tether attached...but then there would have to be the reduction of crash forces benefited during intial restraint by lower anchors or seatbelt prior to failure, questions on whether seatbelt would come out of the belt path (maybe on some seats, maybe not on others) - so many factors to take into consideration that would require an indepth study which is outwith the scope of this message board.

The beginnings of the foundation were admittedly not perfect, but when the video was produced, there were no thoughts even of a foundation. Add it the mix here the emotional background to this, and I think that many would agree that focusing on the benefits the foundation has brought is better placed (or am I assuming too much?).

All your points are very valid Dana, but we can't re-write history here - as I said, the foundation has matured significantly and we cherish the work we do closely with the CPS Technician community.

 

[*Spoiledinmyhouseofblue*]

I just wanted to say the kyle miller foudation made me aware of putting my 4 year old back in a harness at the time, they donated me a seat at a time where we were struggling-about to lose everything. They also donated one to my sister and my cousin. IF it wasn't for them-My now 5 1/2 year old would be still in a low back booster, my cousin's kid would be out in a seatbelt and my sister's daughter would be in a LBB.

I have had tons of people now put their children in a harness thanks to the kyle miller website and their magnet on my car. They say the website is very informational and yes they understand that the seatbelt failed, but they also see the need for the other reason of 5-point harness as well, thanks to the site.

I don't know if I just made sense, but I wanted to say their site has helped alot of people with info.