Input on my brakes please?

[deedeesmom]

I feel stupid even writing this ... (bad brakes on a car safety board) ... but it's kind of on topic because it's related to the choice between trying to fix this car and buying a vehicle I feel is safer. (Or doing nothing, which is what dh wants to do!!)

My 1999 Mercury Sable wagon has been feeling funny in the brakes to me. Occasionally when I brake gently at low speeds, it doesn't seem to engage, kind of feels like two metal parts are grating against each other. If I take my foot off the brake and try again, harder, it works. (Sometimes it also makes this yucky old-car sound during braking even when it works fine.) I had a mechanic look at it last fall and he put new brake pads on it; since then, another mechanic and the dealer have looked at it and see nothing at all wrong with the brakes. The ABS light is on and the dealer said the ABS system is not "communicating" with the car and needs replacing (at about $900). But I don't think that should cause this grating feeling??? Is there any other specific part I should ask a mechanic to look at, that could be causing this? It needs an alignment and I want to have someone look at the brakes again when I take it in.

Dh has driven the car plenty of times and thinks there's nothing wrong with it and has been brushing me off on this for half a year. I am scared though, and hate to have the kids in it. It has so far only happened at low speeds and gentle braking, but still, I feel like this is just begging for trouble.

Re: the ABS, I know that is not good, I know. We were planning to replace this wagon with a minivan in the next year or so, and this makes me want to go ahead and do it right away, but we don't really have the $$$ right now. And we will have to buy used and I'm afraid of scrounging up everything we can to buy it and then finding out that it has its own problems. On the other hand, this car is not worth $1,000+ in repairs -- we put a huge amount of money into a previous oldish car but nobody ever managed to solve the problems and we finally ended up taking it to the junkyard, and I don't want to do that again. Don't like the choices here... Oh, the other choice is that dh has offered to switch cars with me, but his is a Thunderbird, which is painful to get kids into and out of. I guess that's the best thing for the kids right now though. Then maybe he'll see what I'm talking about. (Not that I love the idea of him driving this wagon with its questionable brakes at the speeds and distances he likes to drive at ... sigh ...)

So, anyway, any ideas before I take this back to the mechanic? (Aside from "Get out of the car, idiot!"?)

 

[southpawboston]

refarding the ABS not working, that's not as big a deal to me as it may be to others... statistically you are just as likely to rear-end someone with ABS as you are without; it only reduces your stopping distance on smooth, dry pavement, and only by a little bit (few feet). on some road surfaces like dirt or roads that are snow-covered, it actually *increases* your stopping distance. the primary benefit of ABS is that it allows you to steer your car while the brakes are working to their capacity. without ABS, your wheels are locked up and you just plow straight ahead. it's debatable whether it's worth putting in $900 on an 8-yo car just to restore the ABS function. on the other hand, i doubt the "whole ABS system" needs to be replaced, as you were told. a problem with just one wheel sensor (there is one for each wheel) could cause the light to come on. i think you should get a second opinion on that. it may very well be that it can be fixed for much less.

the description you made of the brakes not seeming to engage at first, but then engaging better when you re-apply pedal pressure-- that may suggest air in the brake hydraulics. it may be that the brake hydraulics just need to be "bled". the mechanic who slapped new brake pads on should have done that, but many mechanics take shortcuts. it is very easy to bleed the brakes, and most any brake shop should be able to do that for $50.

 

[TheRealMacGyver]

If the Mercury dealer and another mechanic both said the brakes are good, with the exception of the ABS system, then I would have to think that they are not going to fail. However, the ABS system not working is of concern. Since ABS has been around now for a while I feel like I should ask if you have had experience braking (quickly) with a car that did not have ABS? ABS will stop a car faster and safer than any person can. Without ABS you must work the brake pedal by letting up if/when the car skids and then reapplying brake pressure again (repeat until stopped). I think there are a lot of people that either have never experienced this or have simply forgotten the procedure. That said, I would do this brake test, without kids in the car! Drive to an area with no cars around. Could be a parking lot after closing hours, etc. Drive the car up to about 20-30 MPH, let go of the steering wheel, but have your hands ready to grab the wheel, then firmly lay on the brakes. The car should not pull in either direction (a little is okay) and should come to stop. Just do one firm push on the pedal and push hard and steady. If you feel up to it, do it again, this time give the brake all you got and see what happens. This is good practice so that you will know how it will handle in a real situation. I looked on www.carcomplaints.com and there is nothing for your car on brake problems, just a few minor complaints.

ETA: (after reading Southpaws)-I just want to add that like southpaw mentioned, the ABS not working shouldn't be a problem.

 

[deedeesmom]

Whew, that makes me feel much better about the ABS. I do know how to stop without it -- this '99 is the newest car I've ever had, lol -- but I did need the reminder. I'll try that test.

And thanks for the tip on bleeding the brakes. I know there is SOMETHING going on with them. I'm far from a new driver, and this is my 4th car, and something is just not right. I don't have much faith that mechanics seeing "nothing" = no problem. We've had too many experiences where we've taken a car to be fixed, maybe paid out the nose too (as with that other car I mentioned -- that was quite an ordeal), and they didn't find or fix the problem.

I'll have the brakes bled and hope that does it! Man, that would be nice. I also like the idea of getting a second opinion on the ABS and see if it's just a sensor.

Thank you!!!

 

[southpawboston]

the sensor is an optical sensor attached near the wheel, and senses the relative speed of the wheel, and reports it to the computer. if the computer sees one wheel spinning too slow (or not at all) relative to the other three, it assumes the wheel has locked up and activates the ABS to allow the wheel to spin again. this all happens as fast as 30 times per second. sometimes the optical sensor doesn't even go bad... it just gets dirty, and can't get a reading. the computer knows enough to interpret this as a defect and not an ABS situation. so definitely, get another opinion! you never know! could be something simple!

 

[wondering1]

Have the pads, bushings and motor mounts inspected.

 

[deedeesmom]

the sensor is an optical sensor attached near the wheel, and senses the relative speed of the wheel, and reports it to the computer. if the computer sees one wheel spinning too slow (or not at all) relative to the other three, it assumes the wheel has locked up and activates the ABS to allow the wheel to spin again. this all happens as fast as 30 times per second. sometimes the optical sensor doesn't even go bad... it just gets dirty, and can't get a reading. the computer knows enough to interpret this as a defect and not an ABS situation. so definitely, get another opinion! you never know! could be something simple!

Huh ... very interesting. I have also had some occasions where the ABS has engaged when it shouldn't -- sounds like what you described. I will definitely look into this.

Wondering, thank you as well. I will make a list of all of this to bring with me.

Ya'll don't know how happy you've made me! This helps so much!

 

[deedeesmom]

Drat. My car is at yet another shop, and the mechanic doesn't see anything wrong with my brakes and said the ABS sensors are functioning and clean. He will drive it tomorrow, but of course it won't act up for him ... you know how it works. Any other ideas? I swear there is something wrong.

He did say it needs new front tires, so it's getting those, and then the alignment.

 

[southpawboston]

did he bleed the brakes?

 

[deedeesmom]

I asked him to -- I wrote down everything mentioned on this thread in the request box. But I'll ask today to make sure.

 

[Morganthe]

Since I didn't see anyone mention them, I'll chime in for a moment.

When the mechanic 'replaced the pads' did he do anything with the rotors --as in smooth or replace them?

If he didn't do anything, then the pads will take the shape of the old pads and could be grabbing unevenly. They haven't worn out by any means, but they're like wearing new shoes with old interior insole padding. The shoes still cushion & grip, but there's still an odd feeling of walking not quite as if they were completely brand new with all the right stuff.

good luck

 

[mamisan]

My first thought was that the brakes need to be bled also.

 

[deedeesmom]

Well, I picked up my car. They said they cleaned the sensors and the ABS light went off. Unfortunately, it went back on after 5 minutes of driving. It didn't act up in terms of not braking well on the way home, but it doesn't always do that so I can't judge that yet. They said to bring it back and they'll hook up the ABS tester (name??) and see what's wrong. Why on earth they didn't do that the first time is beyond me.

Oh, and they said the brakes didn't need to be bled. I talked with one of them about rotors when I went back to say the light was on, and apparently they didn't look at them, but the one who drove it didn't think there was a problem from the way it drove.

I hate dealing with cars. Seems like this happens every time.

ETA: It still makes that old car sound when I brake gently at low speeds. Anyone know what I mean by that? What causes it?

 

[beeman]

First off, I'm agreeing with what southpaw said about the air in the lines, and about the abs system not a necessity (personally, I don't like abs brakes). The other thing to check is the fuses. my abs light will come on if any of the fuses that are related to the braking system (including brake lights) are blown. There could just be something thats tripped the fuse, causing the whole system to go bad.

 

[deedeesmom]

I asked them several times about bleeding the brakes and they insisted it wasn't needed. Will ask about fuses. The brakes are still acting up once in awhile. I have to bring it back next week.

 

[MagnificentMama]

I am so freakin' glad I read this thread. My brakes only seem to do this if i come to a slow stop, or i'm in some heavy stop and go traffic. It doesn't happen that much, but when it does it freaks me out.

*sigh* I don't even know if my brake guy bleds or whatever it is that everyone is talking about. I don't know the first thing about brakes/car maintence in general. I just know which fluid goes in what compartment and the colors of each so if i'm leaking something i can figure out what it is

Anyone care to give me a quick "when my car goes bad 101" lesson? My dad does most of the work on my car but since my car is more "computerized" (he somehow keeps his cars running for decades) he can't work on it as much as he'd like to.

 

[lovemyfamily]

Just adding that the ABS light just came on on my DH's 1999 Dodge Ram. He took it in and they said that there is something with the ABS not communicating as well. They said that worse case scenario, the ABS will not work, but that does not effect normal breaking. Dh was fine with that, as he wasn't able to leave his truck for them to thoroughly check it and do any repairs, right away.

 

[TheRealMacGyver]

Wanted to pass this along. Yesterday I had to help my BIL change the brake line on his 1996 Camry. He too had a brake light on, although his car doesn't have ABS. The flexible rubber line that goes to the wheel caliper had begun to leak, so there was an unequal pressure in the lines (which triggers the idiot light). Anyhow, I don't think this is very common, but it does happen. So, as southpaw and others have mentioned, bleeding the brakes should be done. You can do this yourself with two people communicating well. If you want me to explain in detail, just ask. (there is way for one person to do it too, but $) If bleeding improves the situation for a short time, then possibly there is a pinhole leak in the system. In this case, it is a serious problem that could ultimately become a catastrophic failure. You can monitor fluid in the reservoir for any signs of fluid loss. Anyhow, don't want to cause concern, just wanted to pass that along.

 

[deedeesmom]

Update: I took it back for them to test the ABS system. The mechanic came back looking defeated and said I'd have to take it to the dealer because it wasn't communicating with his testing equipment. (I hadn't told him about our trip to the dealer.) He had nothing to suggest other than following the dealer's recommendation. He said it's not very safe to drive this way, because he said the intermittent misfiring is due to the computer having "no idea what's going on." I asked if I could just have the ABS system totally disabled/disconnected and he said that's not possible, there would be no braking function at all that way. Not good.

I did ask again about bleeding the brakes, btw, and he said if that needed to be done, the pedal would pull away from me toward the floor and that's not what's happening.

Darn it.

 

[southpawboston]

that guy is totally wrong on two points:

1) the ABS not functioning does NOT interfere with normal braking. the cars are designed this way intentionally. brakes must work in spite of electrical or other problems a car may have.

2) having air in the brake system (needing to be bled) does NOT cause the pedal to "pull away from you toward the floor". i have never heard of this. air in the system causes the pedal to travel farther than it should toward the floor, and causes the pedal to feel "mushy" but does not "pull" away from you.

i don't know if you are friends with this mechanic or not, but he sounds to me like a total quack, IMHO.