Question Help me convince, please!

[mam521]

Ok, so I feel like I am beating a dead horse here. I'm about to return to work in about 2 weeks time. My kids will both be going to the same dayhome that my daughter attended previously. The care is good. Its all good...until they have to go in her van.

I've posted before that she doesn't have enough tethers and supposedly the other parents didn't care if she didn't have top tethers. I do care. I got the part number for the retrofit (she's in an '07 Caravan). I've told her I want my kids seats properly tethered. Previously my daughter was in one of the Captains chairs, so it wasn't an issue. But now she's decided the big girls can go in the back row and the babies in the captains chairs. The other "big" girl is going to be going into a HBB despite the fact she'll barely be 4yo and 40lbs.

Long story short, today I went into the van to check my daughter's seat for harness fit because she's recently hit that 40" mark and I figured the harness slots needed to come up on her Nauti and I wanted to install my little guy's seat. Well, our dayhome provider apparently had her seats checked yesterday and wow is all I can say.

First, the "other" little guy is in a classic BV in one of the captains chairs. Whomever apparently checked the install said it was fine for her to have the LATCH (loosely) AND the seatbelt installed They didn't do the buckle flip on the seatbelt and I know for a fact her van belts don't stay tight. I told her she couldn't do this and she argued with me. I at least flipped the buckle so the seatbelt didn't come loose. I don't know why you'd ever want to use the belt over the premium latch on a RF install on that seat when its an extremely viable option.

Then I check my daughter's seat. Dunno how or why, but the headrest was lowered BELOW the current harness slots and I was right, the harness had to be raised up. The seat was again latched AND belted but she's harnessed - not in booster mode. I uninstalled the LATCH (she's floating between 39 and 40lbs...may as well use a seatbelt install), installed the seat properly, flipped the buckle tonge and now its tight. BUT, we still don't have a dedicated tether for her seat and the dealership idiot told her it was ok to hook the 2 outboard seats to the single centre position tether!

I keep trying to explain to her that yes, the police would be the ones to give you a ticket for an improperly installed carseat, but many, many officers DON'T know what a proper installation is. She was arguing with me that both LATCH and a seatbelt need to be done up. I don't know who looked at her installs, but they are atrocious. I take my tech course in June, but until then, I don't know what to do...I don't know how to explain to her proper use trumps all and proper use is what the manual says. Does anyone have a snipit of AB law that says proper child restraint and proper law? And, does anyone have anything written that states why you cannot use LATCH and seatbelt at the same time (other than with certain boosters in booster mode)? She won't believe me and I'm pretty much at a point where I'm going to say either you follow my rules or I'll find alternate child care, despite how awesome she is as a caregiver. My kids deserve more - they deserve their lives if there ever were to be a crash!

 

[Victorious4]

Why is she taking the kids anywhere in her van anyway? :question: I mean, most people I've spoken to don't like the idea of a child care provider transporting children in a vehicle even when the provider is a CPST & can she give you the name of the tech she met with? Or at least the location so that you can visit them & discuss these misuse issues? Did the tech have her fill out the appropriate paperwork? How do they expect to turn said paperwork in with these mistakes if they are audited?

Sent from my iPhone using Car-Seat.Org {please disregard typos!}

 

[mam521]

Its not uncommon around here for child care providers to transport kids. My daughter is in school and needs to be dropped off and picked up and the provider takes them out on field trips, ect.

I forgot that the CPST's all have certification numbers and didn't even clue in to the idea that they should have paperwork that could be provided (DUH!). I think thats my new route - ask her to get paperwork or at least something signed with the installer's cert number. Then we know its an actual trained installer thats looking at the seats, not just someone who thinks they know.

I've also come up with a back up plan for alternate care if it comes to that.

Anyone have the actual law? I did find some resource, but I dunno if she's going to accept it as bible (Capital Health and AB Seatbelt Law online). Any other sources would be greatly appreciated

 

[HONEYhas3]

It is LAW in Canada that ALL Forward Facing car seat MUST be Top Tethered. There is NO other option, it MUST be done!!!

 

[HONEYhas3]

also, here in Canada we dont have Certification numbers. Can you look at this thread and see if there is a Tech that is local that you can refer the DCP to:

http://www.car-seat.org/showthread.php?t=59135

 

[mam521]

Honey - just the person I was going to ask! I know you've suggested to others to get a different bench ('01 if I'm not mistaken) however, does that work with stow n go? I'm not sure which year stow n go was introduced.

I know its law for top tether, but dayhome's argument is no where does it say a dedicated tether directly behind the seat and that only one seat can be tethered to that anchor. So to her, 2 seats tethered to the centre tether is fine because its tethered. Um k, if you want the 2 seats to crash into each other as they are pulled toward the middle!

I'm so tired of the crappy law enforcement around here. Most of this comes because her friend's hubby is a cop and keeps saying "you'll never get a ticket". Really? You're a cop and you're saying that rather than encouraging her to follow the law?

The other thing she often says is "the tethers aren't available...how many other families don't have their seats tethered in a Dodge Caravan" to which I spout back "yeah, and they are part of that 80+% of incorrect carseat installations roaming around out there!". And then I get the whole "the other dayhomes aren't worried about this" and today I just said "why don't you set an example and strive to be better than all the other dayhomes?".

The long and short of it, she's said if it means that much to me AND it doesn't void her van warranty then I can have the retrofit installed. So, does anyone know if it does in fact void the warranty considering the info I have on the retrofit is from Daimler Chrysler direct?

 

[HONEYhas3]

FROM Page 81 of the 2007 Caravan Manual:

WARNING!
An incorrectly anchored tether strap could lead to
increased head motion and possible injury to the
child. Use only the anchor positions directly behind
the child seat to secure a child restraint top tether
strap.



http://www.chryslercanada.ca/owners/en/manuals/2007/2007_DODGE_CARAVAN.pdf


Im not sure if the Stow and Go can be retrofitted with the 01 bench. Ask Dodge, or measuring the tracks of the seat.


Im amused that she is more concerned about voiding the van warranty, but is happy to fore go the LAW, void the car seat manufactures instructions for the top tether, and be a "follow" of other law breakers.
I personally would look into my other care options.

Canadian seats do not pass testing without the top tether, that's how serious this is.

 

[snowbird25ca]

I don't have time to search it right now, but if you search for the changes to CMVSS thread you'll find quotations of alberta law - I believe it's on page 3. There's links and the applicable sections showing proper use being law right there. Her manual will have the information about top tether being required.

If you're so inclined, you can look up the actual different sections that tickets can be issued under. Failure to use a top tether has it's own code. FF'ing seats can be tickets up to 3 times if there is a mistake in tether use, method of installation, and how the child is harnessed in the seat - though in Edmonton they don't typically ticket for everything they possibly can.

The carseat manuals will state not to use both UAS and seatbelt. Graco is usually pretty good at stating it clearly.

Hope that helps and good luck with the talk - you can always email me for my phone number and have her call me.

eta: I don't see how it could possibly void her van warranty. I'm not even sure why she'd think it would - dealers do retrofits all the time - not typically on newer vehicles, but we're talking a piece of hardware - not software or engine or electrical modification etc.

 

[mommycat]

Transport Canada website, red bolding mine - I would print out these pages and highlight the pertinent parts for her, along with the section PP picked out of her vehicle manual:
http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/roadsafety/safedrivers-childsafety-stage2-forward-facing-1085.htm

You have to install your forward-facing seat with either the UAS belt or the seat belt that are threaded through the back of the child seat AND a tether strap at the top of the child seat. Read your car owner’s manual and the child seat user guide to learn how to install the child seat the right way.

Step One: Attach UAS or Seat Belt

Choose the option that keeps the child seat as tightly secure as possible

Important: If your child weighs over 18 kg (40 lbs), please ask your vehicle manufacturer if your vehicle can support a heavier child with the UAS and tether, or the seat belt and tether.

Step Two: Attach Tether

Always use the tether strap with forward-facing child seats. Your vehicle owner’s manual will show you where to find the tether anchors.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/roadsafety/safedrivers-childsafety-car-time-stage1-1084.htm

There may be more than one way to install your child seat in your car. All three ways listed below are safe, so you can pick the one that is best for you and your car. You should check both your car owner’s manual and the child seat user guide for more information.

Choose the option that keeps the child seat as tightly secured as possible

Option 1: UAS
...

Option 2: Seat Belt Only
...

Option 3: Seat Belt + Locking Clip or Built-In Lock-Off
...

 

[mommycat]

http://www.research.chop.edu/programs/carseat/latch.php

Remember:

Be sure to use both the top tether strap and the lower anchors on forward-facing seats.

Only one seat can be attached to the same anchor.

Q: Should I use seat belts along with LATCH?
A: No, the LATCH anchors and attachments take the place of seat belts. Tuck the seat belts out of the way to avoid interfere with the lower anchoring system.

 

[mam521]

I WON!...well, sort of...

OK, so after yet another butting of the heads and nearly parting ways, we came to an agreement. It took me showing her AB law online where it clearly states proper use following CR mfg instruction and vehicle mfg instruction (thanks Honey, BTW!!!). I kept getting the "but the police won't ticket" and I said I don't care what the police will or won't do. My kid's face doesn't need to be rearranged by the seat in front of her, thanks! Ultimately, I think for her she views it as a personal attack that I don't think she cares enough, which isn't it at all. But, if thats what it takes to get her mad enough to rectify the situation, then thats what it takes.

I was going to look into the whole voiding warranty crap (I didn't understand the whole voiding thing since the fax clearly has Chrysler Canada on the info header so why would they create a part number for something unapproved. I can see a dealership being leary about liability, but if you've followed mfg installation instruction, its no different than replacing brakes!) and decide after that if I was pulling my kids. I was pleasantly surprised instead.

First thing this morning she called me. She'd already called Chrysler Canada who said this issue was resolved 8 months ago...until they realized she has Stow n Go seating. Apparently the part number floating around here is 100% approved, free install and all that for a bench seat. There isn't one for a Stow n Go third row split bench. So, she's able to purchase the part and have it installed, but Dodge assumes no liability. She was saying something about they can't guarantee the structural reliability of having that tether bolted there.

I guess the silver lining to this is that it has been escalated to an issue to the Chrysler Canada resolution committee. In the interim, she's purchasing that part and her husband (an airplane mechanic) is going to install it. She said as this has progressed, she doesn't like the idea of her liability even though "everyone" else is borrowing tethers.

So, has anyone had to retroft with a Stow n Go third row before? What did you do?

 

[mam521]

Oh ya, and I guess I should add for anyone in the Edmonton area that runs into this issue and has a bench seat, Derrek Dodge actually stocks this part and has a guy that does the install. That was the original plan until the stow n go came into play!

 

[mommycat]

Wow, that's great. It's sad that it took so long - it seems the liability and legalities are more important to her than actual safety in this case, but at least she is now interested in making things right, for whatever reason. I am baffled that she is going to all this trouble though if she could just put the RF seats in the non-tethered positions??

 

[snowbird25ca]

Thanks for the Derrick Dodge info. I've never encountered someone with a Caravan model year that would be eligible, but that is great to know.

 

[mam521]

Wow, that's great. It's sad that it took so long - it seems the liability and legalities are more important to her than actual safety in this case, but at least she is now interested in making things right, for whatever reason. I am baffled that she is going to all this trouble though if she could just put the RF seats in the non-tethered positions??

That was exactly my suggestion. But apparently its too much of an inconvenience to climb into the back of the van to strap the boys in and its too much of a pain to go through the hatch. Believe me, that was my thought!

Thanks for the Derrick Dodge info. I've never encountered someone with a Caravan model year that would be eligible, but that is great to know.

No problem! Leduc and Ellerslie Dodge won't do the install, so it was a pleasant surprise when Derrek said they would AND had it in stock!

 

[Shanora]

Ugh. That drives me insane. My old Daycare provider doesn't transport children, unless she only has one child, and then she got the parent to install the seat in her truck for her.

Blah. I also hate uninformed Techs who 'think' they know what they are doing. *sigh*

 

[mam521]

Ugh. That drives me insane. My old Daycare provider doesn't transport children, unless she only has one child, and then she got the parent to install the seat in her truck for her.

Blah. I also hate uninformed Techs who 'think' they know what they are doing. *sigh*

I will be checking seats on a VERY regular basis now. I have installed my seats in her van, taught her how to do it and I check regularly for harness fit. How in the world the headwings on the Nauti were lowered is beyond me and I said this is 100% unacceptable because it means she's NOT paying attention. I kind of made her feel like an ass, but I don't care. People trust you with their children...make the effort to educate yourself.

I'm frustrated because she doesn't believe me when I say DON'T install with seatbelt and latch because the apparent tech told her to. RTFM! I don't know if my certification is even going to sway her, but if it doesn't, I may have to bring Trudy in to "assist" me I'd hope the course trainer would have the qualification required for her to be comfortable with the information I supply to be deemed correct.

I am being swayed now to believe that any dayhome provider that purchases additional insurance (as she has) to transport kids shouldn't be allowed to do so unless they take the child restraint course ticketed parents can take and should have to have mandatory checks by real accredited techs on a regular basis. It should be an insurance company requirement as it ultimately falls on them if there was an accident and the dayhome provider were to find themselves in a situation where (s)he were to be sued. But, what do I know, right?

 

[Kat_Shoshin]

Is she a part of a larger dayhome organization? If so, she would be liscensed and have to do reular trainings with the org. Then you could ask as a parent for a car seat training to be arranged.

The organization I am with does these. I volunteered and we wrote a 2 hour training for day care providers - only to have them cancel on us twice and just send out a post-card about seats I now see the caregivers that care enough to ask for help and I do housecalls to help them with their vans. And the exact issue you are having, a lot of the time.

I am glad you stuck to your guns about this and saw your kids safe. As a provider myself, I can't do anything but try to convince a parent when they do something like put their 35lbs kid in a backless booster on his 3rd birthday.

 

[mam521]

No, she's an unlicensed dayhome. Ultimately it came down to care and the original "licensed" provider we had was horrible. Thats an entirely different saga in itself lol!

Our provider's solution is to have these apparent "techs" check her seats. If I could believe for a second these "techs" were recently certified and knew what they were doing, I wouldn't have such concern. But seriously...this "tech" would have embarrased every single real tech on this board, let alone those of us who consider ourselves a touch carseat crazy. Part of it is people still think they can go to the fire hall to have them checked. In Leduc, its the Public Health Unit and you have to ask to see the nurses that have taken a course.

I also don't understand how a person can't have a clue after having a vehicle full of carseats for more than 5 years. Most people pick these things up. I am happy my daughter is as swift as she is - she doesn't let anyone drive anywhere unless her seat is done up properly and her harness is tight...she'll have a meltdown. So, from that standpoint, I've taught her well Too bad she's not quite old enough to know where her headrest is supposed to be on her Nauti...

Like I said, I'll be making a concerted effort to be checking those seats on a regular basis. After seeing what awful condition my daughter's seat was in, I can't not check. And now my son will be attending the same dayhome riding in a MR65. I think both of these seats were pretty easy to use seats too, so I dunno what the deal is...

 

[jourdysmom]

I'm frustrated because she doesn't believe me when I say DON'T install with seatbelt and latch because the apparent tech told her to. RTFM! I don't know if my certification is even going to sway her, but if it doesn't, I may have to bring Trudy in to "assist" me I'd hope the course trainer would have the qualification required for her to be comfortable with the information I supply to be deemed correct.

But her van manual tells you that you can... :thumbsdown:

Chrysler (at least for my T&C) states: When using LATCH <snip>, please ensure that all seat belts not being used for occupant restraints are stowed and out of reach of children. It is recommended that before installing the child restraint, buckle the seat belt so the seat belt is tucked behind the child restraint and out of reach. If the buckled seat belt interferes with the CR installation, instead of tucking the seat belt behind the restraint, route it through the belt path of the CR and then buckle it. This should stow the seat belt out of the reach of an inquisitive child. <snip>

And yes, I do have the TT retrofit in my van with stow and go. It is at the body shop right now, but can take a photo when I get it back if you like. I had my father (a previous Chrysler mechanic) install it and torque it.