HBB for 4yo?

[torybug]

My daughter turned 4 in early October and is currently RF in a Radian in the middle row of our 2003 Honda Odyssey, with her her 2yo brother next to her in the same setup. My nanny's 8mo is in a Chicco Keyfit30 in the back row, but she is having a harder and harder time getting his seat back there as he grows (we have the passenger side 2nd row seat moved toward the middle but there is still not a ton of room on the side.)

I've tried installing my kids' carseats in the way back and can't do the seatbelt install back there at all - always falls over to the side - and there is no latch back there. I know seatbelt installs are just as safe as latch, but only if they are done correctly and I fear mine never would be. So my daughter is going to have to FF in the last row. I have my reservations about FF my daughter since she is still happy and comfortable RF, but my understanding is that 4yo is pretty safe to go FF. Add to that that she is very close to the 40 pounds LATCH weigh limit and we're going to have to seatbelt-install her current seat soon anyway, which I just don't feel confident doing (again, because of lots of experience doing this and knowing how hard it is for me. I spent a couple years RFing a Scenera in my 2-door Hyundai, so please trust me on this.)

I've read a lot on this site and watched crash test videos etc. and I'm not convinced that a harnessed FF seat is necessarily safer than a seatbelt for a kid big enough to FF - provided that the seatbelt is perfectly fitted, which is what I'm thinking a HBB will ensure.

I should add that I am an exhausted overwhelmed WOTH mom and I do not have the time or energy to do the "ideal" things I'm sure many of you will recommend including scheduling a visit with a CPST and ordering-and-returning multiple seats until I find the perfect one. I'm also very short on funds, which adds to the appeal of the HBB over buying a new harnessing car seat. (The cheap ones always are the hardest to install.)

I'm just looking for a sanity check here, and to see if there's anything you clever folks can think of that I have not considered. Also if there is a particular HBB you would recommend or tell me to avoid? No LATCH in the third row so I know I'll have to make sure the empty seat gets buckled in every time. I'm looking at a Graco HB Turbobooster. Thanks!

 

[wendytthomas]

1. Did you lock the belt when you tried a seatbelt install? Gently, since Honda's like to pretend to lock and then unlock.
2. Why not install the Radian forward facing? The top tether does a wonderful job of reducing head excursion that a booster won't. Especially in the third row where that second row is that much closer.
3. Do you have the eight seater Ody so you could put all three kids across the second row?

Tons of options before prematurely moving to a booster.

Also, Honda changed their LATCH limit to 65 pounds combined limit of child plus seat. What Radians do you have, and what year Ody?

Wendy

 

[torybug]

1. Did you lock the belt when you tried a seatbelt install? Gently, since Honda's like to pretend to lock and then unlock.
2. Why not install the Radian forward facing? The top tether does a wonderful job of reducing head excursion that a booster won't. Especially in the third row where that second row is that much closer.
3. Do you have the eight seater Ody so you could put all three kids across the second row?

Tons of options before prematurely moving to a booster.

Also, Honda changed their LATCH limit to 65 pounds combined limit of child plus seat. What Radians do you have, and what year Ody?

Wendy

The seatbelt was locked, the seat still fell over to the side. Repeatedly. I haven't tried it but I think the seatbelt install might work better in the Captain's chair than it did in the third row.

Minivan is 7 seater.

FF Radian is an option, just requires buying a new expensive seat for the baby which I was hoping to avoid. Also I don't think we'd use the top tether, since it goes across the whole trunk and makes it hard to get big strollers in and out. This isn't me being lazy, it's me being realistic about what I can ask my nanny to do.

Stats on the internet say my seat (Radian RXT) weighs 25-26 pounds. So that still puts kid weight around 40 pounds, which is what i'd figured would be the result since the Radian is one of the heaviest seats out there.

I keep thinking the safest setup for everyone would be to just reinstall my daughter where she is with the seatbelt and get a Combi Cocorro for the baby in the third row - I'm thinking that will install pretty easily because of the lockoffs? I'm just not sure, and it's a lot of money (I'll have to put on credit card) and a huge headache if it doesn't all work out. I'm headed towards a panic attack just thinking about it.

 

[wendytthomas]

How big and heavy is the baby?

The top tether isn't trivial. It's the law in Canada, and recommended for every forward facing seat in the US as well.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doJilX2Jo5A"]child restraint system misuse; with and without tether - YouTube[/ame]

You can slide the stroller down and around it.

What year is your van?

The RXT weighs 27 pounds, so that's 38 pounds, child's weight. But there may be an exception to that, which is why I keep asking what year your van is. For vans made after September 1, 2005, you can disregard what Honda says, per Diono, and continue to use LATCH to the limit of the seat.

You don't need lockoffs in the third row. You have locking belts. If the seats were tipping over easily and constantly, it sounds like the belts weren't properly locked, or you were using the wrong belt path, or pushing at the wrong location to test for movement.

Wendy

 

[Pixelated]

I have an 03 Odyssey so let me chime in here with some advice.

1. RF Radians don't install well outboard in the 3rd row unless you slide them WAY toward the middle to get away from the hard plastic bits and gap at the hinge. However, they install beautifully with an angle adjuster in the middle using the lap belt. Seriously easy. Could you rear-face her there? She could climb up herself and then the nanny could either squeeze back there and sit beside her to buckle, or lean in from the hatch. It's hard to buckle from the hatch unless you climb in, which there may not be room for if there's a stroller there.

2. If you do FF her in the 3rd row then the tether strap, which I echo Wendy in strongly encouraging you to use, is very much in the way of anything. However, if you put her on one of the sides (and the Radian goes in with the belt in a snap there) then the tether is at least over to the side, making it pretty easy to work around. Your van came with one tether anchor installed in the middle. You can either get additional ones put in for about $15 for the hardware and do it yourself with a torque wrench, or you can move the one it came with. It's so, so important to use the tether.

3. RF a Radian in the captain's chair with the belt is probably possible but I haven't done it. I tried once, briefly, and determined it was going to be very challenging to do. I didn't have time to mess with it and have never gone back to it. It will be VERY hard, if not impossible, on the captain's chair when it's shifted to the middle. This will also block the access to the 3rd row.

4. Rear-facing anything in the 3rd row is likely to be easiest in the middle with the lap belt. Make sure to detach the shoulder portion and stow it in the ceiling. The buckle stalks twist down easily if they're too long and getting in the way of a secure install.

5. A new seat for the baby (this is your nanny's child?) doesn't have to be a Cocorro. I've had lots back there. A MyRide fits nicely, as does a Scenera, Britax seats. Probably more. I can try some for you if you like but we don't have Coccoros in Canada so I can't try that.

6. Question - do you have an angle adjuster for either of the Radians?

 

[torybug]

How big and heavy is the baby?

Not sure of measurements. He's a larger than average 8 month old. Our nanny will be with us until September.

What year is your van?

2003

You don't need lockoffs in the third row. You have locking belts.

See this is where you CPSTs lose me. I've RF installed Cosco Sceneras, a TF, bases for Keyfit30 and Snugride (the cheap one), Evenflow sureride, and the Radians. I've installed them in a Hyundai Accent 2dr, a 4dr Honda Civic, and the 2003 Honda Odyssey. Without fail, when I have installed using the locking seatbelts the seats tilt to the side. The seatbelt stays locked, the seat just moves along it. Using a locking clip gets a much better install but I have MS and my hands aren't strong enough to do that properly. All this is why I prefer latch.

If the seats were tipping over easily and constantly, it sounds like the belts weren't properly locked, or you were using the wrong belt path, or pushing at the wrong location to test for movement.
Wendy

That last point might have been the problem in the other installs I mentioned. Not being comfortable with the install, I never put a kid in it like that. However in the 3rd row of the Odyssey, the tilt happened on the drive home from the dealership with my daughter sitting in it -she just leaned over a little and the seat went with her. The seatbelt did not move a bit, the seat just moved along it.

 

[wendytthomas]

It's possible for the locked belt to cause tipping, but usually over the course of several weeks (it happens when you go over a bump, the seatbelt ratchets back to the next click locked. Then the next, then the next, etc.). Tipping over going around a turn, or when a child is being a kid in it, that's not normal sounding. I've got a four year old. She goes crazy in her seat. Seatbelt or LATCH it doesn't move more than 1" at the belt path.

However, I've had Hondas, *while I'm telling the parents to be careful because Hondas are tricky* to trick me into thinking the belt is locked when it's not. I'm not saying you have no idea what you're doing, I'm suggesting Hondas are haunted with gremlins that make you think your belts are locked when they're not.

If the eight month old is heavier than 22 pounds, a Safety 1st Guide would be narrow and cheap (and if his shoulders reach, and if he's larger than your run of the mill eight month old they probably will) and compact front to back. It should install well. Though it is a lighter seat, so tipping may be a concern.

What about rear facing your four year old in the middle of the third row, then the Guide with LATCH (so no tipping) for nanny's baby second row, and your two year old on the other side in the Radian?

Since your car is pre-2005 you must switch to the seatbelt at 38 pounds, child's weight.

Wendy

 

[torybug]

I have an 03 Odyssey so let me chime in here with some advice.

Thank you so much for all of this! Very lucky to have someone with the same car as me!

However, they install beautifully with an angle adjuster in the middle using the lap belt. Seriously easy. Could you rear-face her there? She could climb up herself and then the nanny could either squeeze back there and sit beside her to buckle, or lean in from the hatch.

Very good to know, thank you! Not a problem to climb in the back to buckle, I'm sure she'll prefer it to hauling the infant carrier over the seat. And I'm more than used to it after RFing my daughter in my 2-door for a long time.

3. RF a Radian in the captain's chair with the belt is probably possible but I haven't done it. I tried once, briefly, and determined it was going to be very challenging to do. I didn't have time to mess with it and have never gone back to it. It will be VERY hard, if not impossible, on the captain's chair when it's shifted to the middle. This will also block the access to the 3rd row.

Thank you for saving me that headache! I wasn't going to try to seatbelt-install the seat that is shifted to the middle, my 2yo son sits there

4. Rear-facing anything in the 3rd row is likely to be easiest in the middle with the lap belt. Make sure to detach the shoulder portion and stow it in the ceiling. The buckle stalks twist down easily if they're too long and getting in the way of a secure install.

Well then! It sounds like My next step is to check the expiration date on the Costco Scenera I have in the basement and if it's still good I will try installing it in the center back. If that works I can switch places between it and my daughter's Radian. Problem solved, zero dollars spent. Just need to find the pool noodle. And lots of moving seats around, blah.

6. Question - do you have an angle adjuster for either of the Radians?

Yes, but I don't use it because it makes the seat really wobbly. I had two but gave one away.

 

[torybug]

Wendy (and everyone else) - how concerned should I be about FF my daughter at this point? I know at 4yrs 2months she is older than most kids for saying RF, but I also don't feel like there is really an age where FF magically becomes safe, we'd all be safer RFing. I feel lucky that she loves her car seat the way it is. At the same time, there are a lot of logistical advantages we would get from having her FF in her current position. Also I feel really weird about having her all the way in the back AND RF so we can't see or hear her and she is all alone.

 

[carseatcoach]

I would be perfectly comfortable FFing a typical 4yo.

 

[Pixelated]

I would be perfectly comfortable FFing a typical 4yo.

:yeahthat: Wouldn't phase me for a second. Perfectly fine if you want to keep her RF though.

Make absolutely certain to use the tether anchor in that seat too. You can't see it but you can feel it. It's under the captain's chair attached to the chair (not the floor) and is about 2/3 of the way toward the back of the chair. Note that the anchor remains stationary if you slide the seat forward...and then the tether is loose.

As for the Scenera you probably don't need a noodle if you position yourself like this. Slide the 2nd row forward so you have room. With less strength in your hands this will help even if you do use noodles. This movie shows a lap/shoulder belt (in the driver's side captain's chair of an 03 Ody with a Scenera no less!) but use the lap belt instead in the middle of the 3rd row.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSEXN5KuDhk"]Rear-facing infant/child seat with seat belt - YouTube[/ame]

And just to make your day there are two other movies on that youtube channel - FF Radian with seat belt, and FF Radian with LATCH, both on the captain's chair of the same vehicle

 

[MommyShannon]

To access the 3rd row easier, I like to slide the front passenger seat all the way forward and the slide the 2nd row seat forward too. As long as I you have a rf seat installed with LATCH there, you can move it back when the front seat is needed. I am getting nervous thinking about moving my daughter ff at 4 so I understand, but I do think she will be safe. Definitely use a top tether though. We have an '06 so our middle tether is across the trunk. I just undo it to load stuff and then fasten again. Plenty fits under it even packing for road trips. That does add a risk if someone forgets to fasten if though and now a tether is flying around loose. I don't know how it fits in your van, but the SureRide would last a long time ff and isn't too expensive or could be used for the baby.

 

[torybug]

Make absolutely certain to use the tether anchor in that seat too. You can't see it but you can feel it. It's under the captain's chair attached to the chair (not the floor) and is about 2/3 of the way toward the back of the chair. Note that the anchor remains stationary if you slide the seat forward...and then the tether is loose.

That I do know about. At first I was excited because I thought I could use it to tether my RF seats, but when I went to attach it I could see it wasn't really designed for that .

As for the Scenera you probably don't need a noodle if you position yourself like this. ..

And just to make your day there are two other movies on that youtube channel - FF Radian with seat belt, and FF Radian with LATCH, both on the captain's chair of the same vehicle

Blocked at work but I am super excited to check these out later - thanks!

I'm leaning toward FFing my daughter in her current seat and position (drivers side 2nd row) and RFing the baby in a new convertable in the way back middle, especially if I can use a seat I already have.