FF Radian 65SL with seabelt

[redsox_baby]

So I was putting the kids' seats in and moving them around to hand down a Marathon from my son to my daughter and move my son into his Radian 65SL in our '04 Taurus. He was already in a Radian 65SL in our 08 Subaru Outback installed with SuperLatch.

Since my son is 38.xx-39 pounds and the 04 obviously can't use superLatch, I was going to go ahead and put it in with the seatbelt install.

Well, it's a disaster. I must have tried 10+ times, and I did come in and read posts on here about the "twist the seatbelt female stem" trick and recline the bottom, etc. Nothing worked.

I did get it tight on the side of the seatbelt connector, but on the door side, while I couldn't move the seat side to side or strictly forward/backward more than the official 1 inch, I could easily take the seat and move it 4 to 5 inches on the vertical diagnonal in sort of a rollover kind of way. It is super hard to explain and I don't have a picture, but what I meant by "vertical diagonal" is if you (when facing the seat) took the right bottom and tried to lift it toward up and to the left toward the imaginary spot where the side and roof meet on the other side of the car. needless to say, that hardly seems appropriate.

In some way it seemed as though the tighter I got the lap portion of the belt, the more the shoulder part pulled up on the seat and prevented the seat from really digging in on that side because the shoulder part was pulling the seat upward on that side.

I went ahead and installed it with LATCH for now, but as his weight is very near the limit, I obviously haven't got long to figure this out. It has got me so ticked off that I am giving a LOT of thought to going and test driving cars tonight so I can use SuperLatch. (We were talking about getting a new car anyway, and this could push me over the edge.)

HOWEVER, this has really got me STEAMED because one of the primary reasons I chose the Radians was so that we could easily take them with us on trips overseas to visit my in-laws. If I cannot count on being able to use SUPERLATCH overseas (does it exist there?) and I cannot count on a successful seatbelt install on a low-key weekend day let alone after 24 hours of air travel and airport layovers, then I will be forced to rent seats or something, and I don't feel good about that.

What in the world shall I do both on the short term in the 04 Taurus and in the bigger picture with the plans to use the Radians as our travel seats? I know I could count on SuperLATCH on US rentals, but I am not confident I could count on that being an option overseas.

Any insight is most appreciated.

 

[wendytthomas]

Well, a few things.

First, your Ford's limit, and the Radian's when not using the SL, is 48 pounds. So you have tons of time.

Second, moving it along the seatbelt is fine. I do that all the time. In a collision it WILL move that way. That's ok too. Better the seat move than your son. Just check for side to side movement and front to back.

I have no idea if ISOFIX allows for SuperLATCH. I wouldn't count on it. But it sounds like your seatbelt installation was fine. Did you remove the SafeStop and tether the seat?

Wendy

 

[jourdysmom]

So I was putting the kids' seats in and moving them around to hand down a Marathon from my son to my daughter and move my son into his Radian 65SL in our '04 Taurus. He was already in a Radian 65SL in our 08 Subaru Outback installed with SuperLatch.

Since my son is 38.xx-39 pounds and the 04 obviously can't use superLatch, I was going to go ahead and put it in with the seat belt install.

Subaru's LATCH limit is 60lbs including the weight of the child AND the restraint. I personally am still on the fence about using the seat beyond the car manufacturer's rules. Why it is OK for A Radian, but not OK for any other car seat. I know that their LATCH connectors are different, but not so sure I trust that the car anchors would hold.

Just my :twocents:, you can decide how you want to use the info.

 

[redsox_baby]

Wait, I don't understand! I thought superlatch was for any car mfg'd after 2005, not any car with an asterisk...!

What the heck?? : (

Where are you guys finding these limited per vehicle, by the way?

Also, I might snap a pic of the way the seat I'd moving when installed with the seatbelt. I know, Wendy, that you mentioned that moving along the belt is OK, but I'd like to be sure we are both talking about the same thing. Since I put it back in with latch for now, though, it may be a while.

... But now I apparently have to worry about the Subaru? Ugh. You think you have one problem and end up with another. So goes life.
Thanks for your help so far.

 

[redsox_baby]

And no, I did not remove the safe stop yet since he is still under 40 lbs, albeit barely.

 

[jourdysmom]

Wait, I don't understand! I thought superlatch was for any car mfg'd after 2005, not any car with an asterisk...!

What the heck?? : (

SKJP (now Diono) says that they have tested it and that since Sept 2005 cars LATCH is sturdier, so you can use the SuperLATCH. But no car manufacturer allows you to use thier LATCH system to weights that high. They set their limits as 40, or 48lbs for the child or for Subaru 60lbs including child AND seat weight. There are some car manufacturers that say "we defer to the child restraint manufacturer" but it scares me to think that ALL the other seats are in the 40lb range for child weight and this one is DOUBLE that at 80lbs. It is my personal opinion that I don't trust SuperLATCH at an 80lb child PLUS the 25+lb seat.... that is 105lbs against the LATCH anchors... a 30mph crash would be 3150lbs of force against the bars, compared to 1950lbs at 40lbs+seat. A 65mph crash? 6825lbs vs 4225lbs of force. Those are HUGE differences...with nothing other than SKJP/Diono saying it is OK. Not good enough for me.

This is all just MY thinking... I am sure that there are others that would agree with me... others that would disagree with me. I just wanted to make you aware that in MY eyes this is an area that is *PARENTAL DECISION* not something a tech can tell you is OK, or not OK...

Would I trust it at 41lbs? *MAYBE*, just as I don't PANIC if a child comes into a check at 41lbs using LATCH, I explain that the seat needs to be re-installed with seat belt and we move on. Would it fail in a crash? Not likely, but possible... Would I trust my 61lb child with SuperLATCH? Not a chance! Those LATCH anchors are rated by the vehicle manufacturer for a reason.

Hope that helps you understand it a bit better... I fell like I am rambling Time change has messed me up big time LOL

 

[wendytthomas]

The reason Diono allows for SuperLATCH for any car made after September 2005 is because that's when there was a lower anchor standards change. Diono had been saying that it wouldn't be those lower anchors failing, it would be the connector on the carseat. So they went out and designed themselves a better connector. Now I don't know if it is or not, but there was the line of thought. So they now have this SuperLATCH that *can* hold in 105 pounds. It's not the lower anchor that's the concern after September 2005, just the connector.

Now, having said that, I don't know why Subaru is 60 pounds, weight of child plus seat, while Honda is 40, Porsche is 39, Ford is 48, and Toyota doesn't care. They're all the same anchors. But would I tell a parent to use their connectors past 40 pounds in a Honda? Never. There is an alternative that will work. Do I know people who do? Yes.

Same thing with the SuperLATCH. I know people who say no way, I know people who adore it. In this case, I completely leave it up to the parent. I haven't got a strong opinion one way or the other. Those connectors are pretty massive, and I trust they could hold in 105 pounds. They're not the hooks or even the alligator clips that previous Radians had. They are some hefty connectors.

We get this info from the LATCH manual. It's our bible to all things LATCH related. The info in there comes from Safe Ride News, who seeks out engineers (NOT the customer service people, but maybe the lawyers) and asks them what is allowed on each car and what is not.

Wendy

 

[snowbird25ca]

I don't know where the bookmark is off the top of my head right now so I can't give you the actual numbers, but lower anchors aren't tested in terms of pounds - they are tested by newtons. There is a special device attached to both anchors and it is pulled to a certain tension with a precise amount of time allotted to obtain the required minimum force and then that force is required to be held for a specific minimum amount of time. This is the reason why weight limits on lower anchors (and top anchors too for that matter,) are truly so arbitrary - they are taking a known minimum amount of newtons that the anchors can hold, and are trying to equate it to a safe child weight. There is no universal amount of force that a 40lb child is going to apply to the anchors - speed of collision, location of impact, even the type of vehicle or object collided with - those are all going to influence the actual amount of force exerted on the lower anchors.

Based on the information that I know, I feel confident that it would be the connectors that failed before the vehicle's lower anchors - provided you were using an approved LATCH seating position.

As for whether or not I fully trust the superlatch? Well - it's basically 4 times the strength of a regular push-on connector, and those work just fine up to 48lbs at a minimum, so I wouldn't really worry about using SL in a 2005 or newer car provided the child fit the seat still. Using the data we have, there's just really no reason to doubt the ability of anchors in the newer vehicles to hold a heavier child when using the SL connectors. :shrug-shoulders:

 

[redsox_baby]

I came back to update. After this issue with the Taurus, I put it back to LATCH on the short term, knowing that we probably wouldn't have the car long enough to worry about it.

Sure enough, the Taurus started being more trouble than it was worth, so we put her out to pasture.

We got a new 2012 Toyota Camry Hybrid, and I can happily report that I got a very, very solid seatbelt install pretty much on my first try. :thumbsup:

Now on to deciding whether I want to try the seatbelt on the Subaru I mentioned. I had always planned to use SL, but with the issues of people having them loosen (although it's never happened to us) + some of the other excellent points made on the topic, I am not sure I feel great about SL. Hopefully the seatbelt install in the OUtback will be as easy as it was in the Camry.

Thanks for all the help

 

[wendytthomas]

Want to hear something ironic (that I've learned since you last posted)? Toyota is perfectly fine with you using LATCH with the Radian to the limits of the seat. They defer to the carseat and that means SL as well.

Most of the SL issues are rear facing, not forward.

Make sure if you use LATCH in the Toyota you're doing it on one of the sides.

Wendy

 

[redsox_baby]

Want to hear something ironic (that I've learned since you last posted)? Toyota is perfectly fine with you using LATCH with the Radian to the limits of the seat. They defer to the carseat and that means SL as well.

Haha! Figures!! LOL Good to know, though, in case I decide to go that easier route if and when I have to uninstall and reinstall someday.

As far as the SL issues being almost exclusively RF. I had a feeling that was the case, but I wasn't certain. Good to know there, too. Since for us the radians are step-up seats for FF after being RF in the Marathons (which now belong to my younger child), I've never used the Radians RF.