2006 Sienna / Britax Regent / Locking ELR / *STILL* moves a LOT side to side

[tgm1024]

I've seen in a couple places on this website it stated words to the effect "If you using the seat belt method AND have a locking ELR belt mechanism, then you absolutely do not need a locking clip."

But this on two cars so far has not been true, most currently on my Sienna, which has a locking shoulder ELR belt (with a sliding latch plate).

Because the belt is held taught, the seat doesn't "lift", but because the belt slides freely through the sliding-latch plate it can move with very little hand pressure side to side. Even with my tether on it still is far too loose.

*SHOULD* there be a way for the locking ELR to be enough? It just isn't given the size of the slots in the back of the Regent.

This is so aggravating because it all started with an ambiguity in the manual that I've seen others point out. AFTER you get done using the LATCH "short route installation" for 40-80 pound kids (my kids are now 50 pounds), like a cruel joke you THEN get the nicely timed warning

WARNING: Use vehicle belt (not LATCH connectors) for installations with children weighing ore than 48 pounds. Refer to the vehicle owner's manual or contact the vehicle manufacturer for the maximum weight rating for their lower anchors. Unless specified otherwise by the vehicle manufacturer, assume a 48 pound child is the vehicle LATCH anchor limit.

Now forget the fact that this mostly implies that if Toyota says it can hold an 80 pound child then the Regent LATCH can, it turns out that Toyota says to refer to the maker of the child restraint. Great circular logic there.

So the thing remains odd. It's stated in these parts that a locking ELR == no clip needed. Yet I have a locking ELR, and the seat rotates L/R in place when pressed on even with the lock engaged and the belt tight. The belt is just not in any position to have enough leverage to apply that level of anchoring L/R force. And the tether doesn't help much---it's for forward/backward anchoring.

Should I use a locking clip? What could I possibly be doing wrong?

 

[Fallon]

Now please tell me if I'm reading this wrong but it says do not use ELR belts w out locking clip so I would think one is needed

 

[creideamh]

I think you mean you have a switchable retractor (where it's normally ELR, but you can "switch" it "lock" it into ALR mode. Or the other way around for ELR/ALR. I always forget.)

So you're switching it into locking mode, applying pressure into the seat, pulling it tight, and the seat still moves more than 1" side to side, correct? I've never owned a Regent so I'm not a lot of help, but I just want to clarify for others.

 

[Jeanum]

This site has a primer on seatbelt types on how they lock that may be helpful for you, along with when/how to use a locking clip: http://www.carseatsite.com/lockingclips.htm

I have to sign off here, but in a nutshell, the '06 Sienna is equipped with switchable shoulder belt retractors that allow you to lock the seatbelt at the shoulder belt retractor for carseat installations and you wouldn't need a locking clip for installing the Regent. As described in the above link, you engage the locking mechanism by pulling the shoulder belt out at the retractor, and then as you slowly feed the shoulder belt back into the retractor, you should hear a clicking sound to indicate the locking mechanism is engaged as you tighten the installation to take up any slack in the seatbelt (plus you won't be able to pull the shoulder belt out at the retractor any further once it's locked unless you feed it most of the way back into the retractor to unlock it).

FWIW, I used to own an '05 8-passenger Sienna and have installed the Regent in the third row center using the seatbelt long belt path method, and also used the seatbelt short belt path method. The seatbelt short belt path method is required for a seatbelt install for kids above 40 lbs. for post-advisory Regents made after approx. late June 2007, and for pre-advisory Regents made before that date of manufacture which had the advisory modifications applied (longer LATCH strap and some add-on gripper strips on the bottom of the Regent, going from memory). The seatbelt long belt path method used nearly every millimeter of the vehicle seatbelt and was rock solid, while the seatbelt short belt path method had some movement when I checked the install (with a non-dominant hand tug, which is how to test an install for movement at the belt path, not tackling it like a football tackle practice block) but less than 1" of movement at the belt path which is an acceptable install.

 

[tgm1024]

This site has a primer on seatbelt types on how they lock that may be helpful for you, along with when/how to use a locking clip: http://www.carseatsite.com/lockingclips.htm

I have to sign off here, but in a nutshell, the '06 Sienna is equipped with switchable shoulder belt retractors that allow you to lock the seatbelt at the shoulder belt retractor for carseat installations and you wouldn't need a locking clip for installing the Regent. As described in the above link, you engage the locking mechanism by pulling the shoulder belt out at the retractor, and then as you slowly feed the shoulder belt back into the retractor, you should hear a clicking sound to indicate the locking mechanism is engaged as you tighten the installation to take up any slack in the seatbelt (plus you won't be able to pull the shoulder belt out at the retractor any further once it's locked unless you feed it most of the way back into the retractor to unlock it).

FWIW, I used to own an '05 8-passenger Sienna and have installed the Regent in the third row center using the seatbelt long belt path method, and also used the seatbelt short belt path method. The seatbelt short belt path method is required for a seatbelt install for kids above 40 lbs. for post-advisory Regents made after approx. late June 2007, and for pre-advisory Regents made before that date of manufacture which had the advisory modifications applied (longer LATCH strap and some add-on gripper strips on the bottom of the Regent, going from memory). The seatbelt long belt path method used nearly every millimeter of the vehicle seatbelt and was rock solid, while the seatbelt short belt path method had some movement when I checked the install (with a non-dominant hand tug, which is how to test an install for movement at the belt path, not tackling it like a football tackle practice block) but less than 1" of movement at the belt path which is an acceptable install.

Yes I know all that about extending the belt to get the lock engaged (and then you bring it back in and it holds.) And it does that fine.

But in your 05 Sienna: did you have a slip latch plate or a locking one? Note: I'm asking now about the latch plate---the part that plugs into recepticle at the seat. If your 05 wasn't a slip like mine is, then sure it would be fine.

I'm curious about that image posted above saying that a locking clip was needed....where did you get that. The image seemed cropped inward, but could be read.

 

[tgm1024]

Yes I read through that link already before posting. I do have a switchable retractor. But there is just not enough leverage to keep it from moving left/right.

The Britax Regent manual doesn't mention ALR at all, but refers to it this way:

WARNING: Do not install this restraint using a non-locking ELR vehicle belt, unless a belt shortening clip is used. Refer to the vehicle owner's manual (etc.)

So basically I have a switchable, or in Britax terms: a locking ELR vehicle belt.

 

[Brianna]

Locking clips are only needed for ELR-emergency locking retractors. When you have engaged your lock, you no longer have an emergency locking retractor, so you don't need a locking clip. Seat belts only need to lock one way, at the latch plate or at the retractor.

Are you only testing for movement along the belt path, side to side and front to back, with your non-dominant hand with about the same force as a firm handshake?

As a side note, the top tether is to be secured after the seat is already installed with less than 1" of movement. The top tether shouldn't be used to tighten up an otherwise unacceptable installation.

 

[tgm1024]

I think you mean you have a switchable retractor (where it's normally ELR, but you can "switch" it "lock" it into ALR mode. Or the other way around for ELR/ALR. I always forget.)

So you're switching it into locking mode, applying pressure into the seat, pulling it tight, and the seat still moves more than 1" side to side, correct? I've never owned a Regent so I'm not a lot of help, but I just want to clarify for others.

Yes, that's correct: Switchable. I'm calling it a "lockable ELR" because that's the way the Regent manual refers to it within its warning above.

 

[Brianna]

I found this video for you, towards the end you can see how she checks for movement. It also shows how to get a bit more slack out of the seat belt if that's why your installation seems loose

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlhjcf30hRU"]Britax Regent Installed with Seat Belt Using Short Belt Path - YouTube[/ame]

 

[tgm1024]

Locking clips are only needed for ELR-emergency locking retractors. When you have engaged your lock, you no longer have an emergency locking retractor, so you don't need a locking clip. Seat belts only need to lock one way, at the latch plate or at the retractor.

Are you only testing for movement along the belt path, side to side and front to back, with your non-dominant hand with about the same force as a firm handshake?

As a side note, the top tether is to be secured after the seat is already installed with less than 1" of movement. The top tether shouldn't be used to tighten up an otherwise unacceptable installation.

I understand that about the tether. I merely added that it doesn't do anything to make the point.

I might have to make a video for you guys I think. I'm wondering if the "alr" style locking (after the pull-out switch is engaged) is between ratcheting teeth and preventing the last 1/8th inch retraction or something.

But even so, with my full weight crushing the thing down and back into the seat, the belt is not enough. And all I have to do is press back and forth on the edge of the seat closest to the engine for it to rotate L/R.

Perhaps the seat it's mounted on is reclined too far or slid too far back?

 

[Jeanum]

I can't address where the image came from as that was posted by someone else, other than it appears to be a manual page by way of a smart phone.

Our '05 Sienna had switchable retractors, not locking latchplates, and I'm fairly certain the same is true for the '06 Sienna, too, barring Toyota tweaking the design between model years. Various other members here with '06 Siennas can likely confirm that. (It's pretty rare for a vehicle to have both switchable retractors and a locking latchplate for a single seating position, usually it's either/or, with a few exceptions like some Chrysler or GM models).

 

[tgm1024]

Ok, good video, thanks Brianna. By the way, we're talking past each other in the last two posts because they occurred at almost the same time.

I've installed it every time precisely like she's doing (it looks like she's got a sienna too), but here's the rub.

1. my test is hauling it from the front of the seat, not merely side to side at the belt path.
2. the regent's "recline bar" doesn't ever hit the back of the seat. It falls straight into the gap between the upper part of the seat and the lower part of the seat. This puts the latch plate and receptical slightly forward of the slot in the back. This is not idea, because it would by itself want to make the seat move forward.
3. Her seat is a little more inclined than mine. I was hoping to avoid that so my kids wouldn't sleep with their heads flopped forward.

Getting more and more confused about this as I try it. I did it again using every ounce of effort (I'm a pretty strong guy) to get that last ratchet click, and it's better, but still not that 1" safe.

 

[tgm1024]

I can't address where the image came from as that was posted by someone else, other than it appears to be a manual page by way of a smart phone.

Our '05 Sienna had switchable retractors, not locking latchplates, and I'm fairly certain the same is true for the '06 Sienna, too, barring Toyota tweaking the design between model years. Various other members here with '06 Siennas can likely confirm that. (It's pretty rare for a vehicle to have both switchable retractors and a locking latchplate for a single seating position, usually it's either/or, with a few exceptions like some Chrysler or GM models).

Yeah, it's pretty clear mine is a switchable with a sliding latch plate, as you would expect. I was using "locking ELR" because of the wording used by Britax in their warning.

Still torquing this thing. I can tell you also though, that the woman in that video isn't testing that seat very hard. And that recline bar is completely useless and positioned entirely wrong.

 

[Brianna]

Ok, good video, thanks Brianna. By the way, we're talking past each other in the last two posts because they occurred at almost the same time.

I've installed it every time precisely like she's doing (it looks like she's got a sienna too), but here's the rub.

1. my test is hauling it from the front of the seat, not merely side to side at the belt path.
2. the regent's "recline bar" doesn't ever hit the back of the seat. It falls straight into the gap between the upper part of the seat and the lower part of the seat. This puts the latch plate and receptical slightly forward of the slot in the back. This is not idea, because it would by itself want to make the seat move forward.

Getting more and more confused about this as I try it. I did it again using every ounce of effort (I'm a pretty strong guy) to get that last ratchet click, and it's better, but still not that 1" safe.

You only need to test at the belt path. The father away from the belt path you test for movement, the more movement there will be. You don't need to test for movement any more than as shown in the video. I can't comment on the recline bar as I have no Regent experience.

 

[creideamh]

:yeahthat: Just check at the belt path.

Have you checked your car's manual (or on here) for how many clicks is OK for the auto seat to be reclined? There's usually a rule about that, too.

 

[eduller]

I don't have anything useful to add, but this brought up a question in my mind:

You only need to test at the belt path. The father away from the belt path you test for movement, the more movement there will be. You don't need to test for movement any more than as shown in the video.

By this, do you mean that it's okay for the seat to pull forward more than an inch if you pulled on the top (where the child's head would sit) if the seat and also if you pulled up from the "seat" of the child restraint? I'm just a little confused. I've never installed a FF seat, as my daughter is only 2 1/2 and all of my seats except one have either a rebound bar or other tethering, and I like a rock tight install, so my seats barely move a mm in any direction.

 

[tgm1024]

I don't have anything useful to add, but this brought up a question in my mind:

By this, do you mean that it's okay for the seat to pull forward more than an inch if you pulled on the top (where the child's head would sit) if the seat and also if you pulled up from the "seat" of the child restraint? I'm just a little confused. I've never installed a FF seat, as my daughter is only 2 1/2 and all of my seats except one have either a rebound bar or other tethering, and I like a rock tight install, so my seats barely move a mm in any direction.

Given my understanding of physics, an installation THAT tight might not be as safe for the child. The reason I say that is because it means that the child could fly against the childseat in an accident at the angular speed the car was traveling at with no elastic motion at all built into the seat. THAT level of tightness gets the child closer and closer to being strapped into a seat of pure iron welded to the car.

 

[vtbecca]

I had that same combination, but with a pre advisory regent. I remember not being able to get it tight enough on the short belt path. I tried so many times. I had applied the recall kit and made the judgement call to take off the recall kit and use the long belt path. Not advocating that at all, but it is what I did because I did have an earlier regent. The recline bar went right into the bight of the seat, between the back and seat. It seemed close to incompatible in the captains chairs using the short path :/

Becca

 

[tgm1024]

I had that same combination, but with a pre advisory regent. I remember not being able to get it tight enough on the short belt path. I tried so many times. I had applied the recall kit and made the judgement call to take off the recall kit and use the long belt path. Not advocating that at all, but it is what I did because I did have an earlier regent. The recline bar went right into the bight of the seat, between the back and seat. It seemed close to incompatible in the captains chairs using the short path :/

Becca

Yep. It should actually be called an "upright"ing bar. That recline bar seems to be there only in the case that the car seat is leaned too far back AND it's a kind of seat that the recline bar iself doesn't lodge right into the middle. That said, if the car seat does recline too far back, then that bar suddenly DOES hit the back of the seat or at least miss that space between the two seats.

Confusing.

All in all, I was able to get it tight enough using near Herculean effort. And it is restrained an inch using horizontal travel right AT the seat belt path.

HOWEVER, try as I might, there is just no way to have the seatbelts not bunch up and be smooth. Not that I can find. It's just impossible given the shape of the openings. Is that really unsafe?

Unless you're living in a parallel universe, I have no idea how you guys are doing it.

 

[vtbecca]

Yep. It should actually be called an "upright"ing bar. That recline bar seems to be there only in the case that the car seat is leaned too far back AND it's a kind of seat that the recline bar iself doesn't lodge right into the middle. That said, if the car seat does recline too far back, then that bar suddenly DOES hit the back of the seat or at least miss that space between the two seats.

Confusing.

All in all, I was able to get it tight enough using near Herculean effort. And it is restrained an inch using horizontal travel right AT the seat belt path.

HOWEVER, try as I might, there is just no way to have the seatbelts not bunch up and be smooth. Not that I can find. It's just impossible given the shape of the openings. Is that really unsafe?

Unless you're living in a parallel universe, I have no idea how you guys are doing it.

I had those exact same issues. It was nuts. I too was wondering how it worked for others. I have never had issues with other seats, but that one in particular did cause us some issues, especially in that particular van. Lots of workouts trying to get it to work!

Becca