Random Questions

Anyone want to answer my random car-seat related questions? I have lots of them kicking around in my head!

All relate to seats and regulations in Canada, BC to be specific if it makes a difference.


Which bucket seats are allowed to have the handle up while in use?

Are there any booster seats that are designed to be used with a lap-only belt? Even ones that aren't made any more but may still be kicking around.

Are there any HB boosters which secure to the vehicle by means of top tether or UAS?

Which booster seat is generally the "biggest" in terms of seating area for the child?

When we look at harness weight limits, we take the fully clothed weight of the child into account. When looking at the UAS weight limit though, the child's weight counts but not the weight of the seat itself. As seats vary so much in weight, why do we not include the seat weight?

What is the minimum recline for RF on an older child? Is it 30 or 35 degrees? Or does it vary with each seat?
How do you measure the degrees of recline? I generally just eyeball it but there must be a scientific way to do this.

How do you get a tight install with a bucket seat when there isn't a base available? I find it hard to put weight onto the seat to tighten the belt fully when the child is in it. I much prefer installing a car seat when there aren't children present to harass me. lol

Is there a general amount of space that must be left between a RF seat and the front row seat-back? Or again is this seat and vehicle specific? If so, where is that info found....I don't see it in my vehicle or seat manual.

I am trying to find a solution for toys and books all over the vehicle. I know it's not safe to have them floating everywhere. If I made a zip-up mini duffle with a pouch on the back for a seat belt to route through could I buckle it in to an empty seat? Would that be safe?

Thanks to anyone that can answer any of these questions!

I'm going to attempt these.. I'm not perfect, and people are going to need to add to my answers in order for you to have complete answers.. since no one person can really know it all..well, except Trudy..



Bucket seats / Handle - All Graco, Chicco KeyFit.. I'm thinking there's one I'm forgetting..?

Lap-only belt - Yes, the Cosco Explorer and it's variations. All or most should be expired/expiring and they are not recommended for use, anyways. Another from the US would be the Britax Laptop (also expiring) or from Europe the Vario (same seat) although I've only once or twice seen it in Canada and it would be illegal to use here. One new one may be coming out, at least into the US market...but I'm not 100% that it'll allow for lap-only use yet..?

HBB secured to the seat - Sunshine Kids Monterey, Magna Clek Oto/Olli/Oobr all have UAS, and some combination seats may allow for UAS and/or tether use in booster mode, but individual manufacturers should be consulted. I know Century gave me the okay to loosely tether my NextStep in booster mode to secure it in the even of a crash when unoccupied. Generally it's advised that no, you shouldn't secure a combo seat in booster mode.. but some parents have made the parental decision to loosely secure their combos.

Largest booster option - Sunshine Kids Monterey, possibly the Clek Oobr, and the Parkway SG coming out is also quite a bit larger than the original Parkway. My 11 year old fits in the Monterey although I haven't tried him in the SG yet.

Seat weight and UAS - This is a tough question. We do account for the seat weight, but at an average number. For example--the Safeguard Go (US seat) allows for use of LATCH to a higher weight than the standard 40/48 because of the weight of the seat relative to a standard restraint. Most restraints are pretty close in weight, and the weight numbers we are given for UAS are an interpretation of the Newtons load permitted on those anchors. There's likely a fairly large gap between the allowances and what those anchors could realistically perform to... This isn't as large an issue in Canada, because we don't have the Regent.. but the Radian is quite heavy, and their current recommendations for their newest seat allowing UAS/LATCH use beyond the manufacturers' stated weight limits is a slight cause for concern. This was recently discussed here in another forum, if you want to search for it.

Older kids RF recline - only the TrueFit actually says 35 degrees.. We use common sense here--if the child is comfortable and is still fairly upright, I wouldn't be concerned personally.. I had a Recaro Como in my ex's Mazda Tribute that was bolt upright when he had my daughter, and I still felt better about that versus FF her... I wouldn't want to see a 1 year old at 45 degrees, and I wouldn't want to see a newborn at 30 degrees.. but a 1 year old at 30? Not a problem.. a 1 year old at 20? I suppose you weigh your options...

Measuring recline - you do just eyeball it..because the ground you're on is never perfectly level, etc etc.. you just make sure the child is comfortable, is appropriately reclined for their age (especially for younger children with little neck control and heavier heads) and go with it.. I sometimes will put my fingers up at a 90 degree angle and then roughly cut that in half with a third finger, then show that to parents.

Getting a bucket tight without a base - Us old folks are pros at this You actually install the infant seat at about a 30-35 degree angle, tightly, and then force it back down to a 45 degree angle thus extending the beltpath. That tends to be the easiest way to do this when you have a child in the seat and cannot easily put pressure on it. Bases didn't exist when my older two were in infant seats, so I got pretty used to this process. Euro installs are actually slightly easier baseless (some seats in Canada do allow for use of the rear clip, such as Cosco infant seats..)

Space between RF seat and seat in front - Evenflo wants 1". Sometimes that's realistic, othertimes you have to make a parental decision to go with what you've got.. It irritates me that Evenflo wants that 1" and then on top of that they ask you to position handles right in that very spot..
When you touch the front seat, it's considered bracing.. but this may interfere with WHIPS protection for that occupant. You should always read the vehicle manual and see what is permitted per that vehicle manufacturer, and combine that with the requirements of the seat manufacturer. If either says the two cannot touch, then they cannot touch. If your vehicle doesn't say anything AND doesn't have WHIPS, I would say it's fine to brace.

Items in the car - It's advised that you secure items in the car, and it sounds like what you've rigged up is a better solution than having items free in the vehicle. If it works for you, and you're comfortable using it, then I would say go with it.

selinajean said:

Anyone want to answer my random car-seat related questions? I have lots of them kicking around in my head!

All relate to seats and regulations in Canada, BC to be specific if it makes a difference.


Which bucket seats are allowed to have the handle up while in use?

>> Graco Snugride (made after about 2006, see manual), Graco SafeSeat, Graco Snugride 32, Combi Centre (required to have handle up in vehicle), Chicco KeyFit (any locked position).

Are there any booster seats that are designed to be used with a lap-only belt? Even ones that aren't made any more but may still be kicking around.

>> Cosco Explorer shield boosters that are all expired, and *not* recommended, used to be the "answer" for lap-only belts.

Are there any HB boosters which secure to the vehicle by means of top tether or UAS?

>> Some of the Graco combination seats allow for continued top tethering once in booster mode. Boosters that allow for UAS use are the Britax Frontier, Sunshine Kids Monterey, and Clek. Graco is wishy washy about the Nautilus being UAS'able in booster mode, so I'm not sure, unfortunately.

Which booster seat is generally the "biggest" in terms of seating area for the child?

>> Sunshine Kids Monterey, Clek Oto, Cosco Ambassador (or whatever they call their backless these days), and Combi highback are all quite roomy.

When we look at harness weight limits, we take the fully clothed weight of the child into account. When looking at the UAS weight limit though, the child's weight counts but not the weight of the seat itself. As seats vary so much in weight, why do we not include the seat weight?

>> I will leave this answer for the more diplomatic posters we have around here.

What is the minimum recline for RF on an older child? Is it 30 or 35 degrees? Or does it vary with each seat?

>> Most seats allow for an install as upright as 30 degrees. The TrueFit must be no more upright than 35 degrees.


How do you measure the degrees of recline? I generally just eyeball it but there must be a scientific way to do this.

>> You can use the paper trick which involves a folded piece of paper. I however use my fingers, and make a 90* angle with my pointer and thumb, then just sort of eyeball it. Really though, the child is your best indicator of correct angle.

How do you get a tight install with a bucket seat when there isn't a base available? I find it hard to put weight onto the seat to tighten the belt fully when the child is in it. I much prefer installing a car seat when there aren't children present to harass me. lol

>> I reach my hand under their bum area, and push down really hard while tightening the belt. Installing an infant seat properly sans base takes a good few minutes IME.

Is there a general amount of space that must be left between a RF seat and the front row seat-back? Or again is this seat and vehicle specific? If so, where is that info found....I don't see it in my vehicle or seat manual.

>> This is where being well read as a tech comes in handy. I know the rules of each seat, and can guess the rule of each vehicle based on it's model year (ie: advanced airbags = no touching). To keep it simple though, *if* a vehicle allows for a car seat to be braced (no warning about it in the manual) then Sunshine Kids and Britax are the only manu's in Canada that allow for bracing. Some allow for touching, and a very small few require actual clearance space --which will be in the manual. Vehicles made after about '06 have advanced airbags, and will therefore restrict touching. Often it's the model year of the vehicle that provides your instant answer. The airbag section of a vehicle manual is a very good place to start.

I am trying to find a solution for toys and books all over the vehicle. I know it's not safe to have them floating everywhere. If I made a zip-up mini duffle with a pouch on the back for a seat belt to route through could I buckle it in to an empty seat? Would that be safe?

>> Sure. Just make sure the toys and books are all soft, and be sure to lock your belt (if req'd).

Thanks to anyone that can answer any of these questions!

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Hope that helps,

The Combi one was driving me batty.. I knew I was forgetting one, and honestly I've NEVER seen one at a check in either country!

BTW--some newer manufacturers DO allow for bracing with advanced airbags.. Volvo, for example. I think VW/Audi does, as well?

-Nicole.

So what exactly is bracing? Is that where you have the front seat up against the RF seat so tightly that it prevents the RF seat from moving at all?
(A friend of mine does that in order to get a tight install instead of just tightening the belt fully and using the locking clip that I think she needs. I don't think that would be what bracing is for though.)

And what is WHIPS? I put it in my search engine and came up with a million things that were not car related at all.

The install needs to be independently tight, regardless of whether or not it's braced. Bracing is simply having the seat up against the vehicle seat, so that there is no forward (towards vehicle front) movement when you push the seat that direction, because the movement is stopped by the vehicle seat. The test sled we have here isn't set up to test whether or not bracing is a good thing, but it may perform similarly to a footprop. However--we need to recognize that that vehicle seat itself will move towards the point of impact in a crash, as well, and therefore may not actually brace the carseat at all.

WHIPS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WHIPS

QuassEE said:

The Combi one was driving me batty.. I knew I was forgetting one, and honestly I've NEVER seen one at a check in either country!

BTW--some newer manufacturers DO allow for bracing with advanced airbags.. Volvo, for example. I think VW/Audi does, as well?

-Nicole.

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I did a '10 Q5 and it didn't?? The family also had a '09 A6 and it didn't??

(the general blurb about not having anything interfering with the seatbacks, rails, etc)

WHIPS and advanced airbags are two different balls of wax. no?

Yeah, two totally different things, but both are "sensed" in the seats themselves. WHIPS is strictly headrest and has been around longer. Airbag sensors can be in various positions in the seats. Both could potentially be negatively impacted by bracing (but nobody really knows for sure..?). I'm thinking newer Audis have something restricting bracing then--I haven't seen anything newer than a '07 (which had no restriction--A6). A '08 Jetta I did a check in had no bracing restriction.

At the end of the day...you can only be sure if you check the child restraint and airbag sections of the manual.

-Nicole.

Just to add that the Graco seats, and the Peg Perego only allow the handle to be up in certain positions, not all. (AFAIK)

April said:

Just to add that the Graco seats, and the Peg Perego only allow the handle to be up in certain positions, not all. (AFAIK)

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Peg does not allow the handle to be up at all. Graco the handle has to be all the way up, or back behind the shell. In the case of the SS1, this means even with the top of the shell. In the case of the 22lb limit Snugride, this means the handle is actually a good 3 or 4" below the top of the shell.

Nicole, I had to giggle about your comment. Nobody can know it all. Not even me.

My 09 Astra doesn't prohibit things touching the seatback. It does however talk about how things stored underneath the seat or pushing in to the seat bite of the passenger seat could affect the airbag sensors. (Random thought - I wonder if that means the pressure of a rf'ing tether could interfere with the airbag sensors?) The car does have active head restraints as well, and talks a lot about extra covers and pillows on the seat, but doesn't warn about pressure on the back of the passenger seat. That being said, I don't think I would brace anything tightly there unless I was never going to have a front passenger - I found myself wondering if bracing on the seatback was something they should have mentioned. Then again, the Astra is mostly based on a European vehicle, and bracing is common in Europe, so I could be completely off base... It doesn't really matter in my case anyways because true bracing can only be done when there is also a rf'ing tether.

snowbird25ca said:

Peg does not allow the handle to be up at all. Graco the handle has to be all the way up, or back behind the shell. In the case of the SS1, this means even with the top of the shell. In the case of the 22lb limit Snugride, this means the handle is actually a good 3 or 4" below the top of the shell.

Nicole, I had to giggle about your comment. Nobody can know it all. Not even me.

My 09 Astra doesn't prohibit things touching the seatback. It does however talk about how things stored underneath the seat or pushing in to the seat bite of the passenger seat could affect the airbag sensors. (Random thought - I wonder if that means the pressure of a rf'ing tether could interfere with the airbag sensors?) The car does have active head restraints as well, and talks a lot about extra covers and pillows on the seat, but doesn't warn about pressure on the back of the passenger seat. That being said, I don't think I would brace anything tightly there unless I was never going to have a front passenger - I found myself wondering if bracing on the seatback was something they should have mentioned. Then again, the Astra is mostly based on a European vehicle, and bracing is common in Europe, so I could be completely off base... It doesn't really matter in my case anyways because true bracing can only be done when there is also a rf'ing tether.

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With our '08 car I have interpreted the warning against having anything interfere with the rails as meaning I can't wrap a d-ring around the rails.

The warning in your Astra about not having anything pushing into the seat bite is a new one for me, and I read a lot of manuals these days, most of them in the '07-'10 range.

I have yet to see the word "bracing" in any manual, and I'm always looking.

I do however see a lot of this statement: "don't let anyone kick the back of the front seat".

I hope to see a day where we can have a straight answer on all of it. With actual words like "rear facing tether", and "bracing".

canadiangie said:

With our '08 car I have interpreted the warning against having anything interfere with the rails as meaning I can't wrap a d-ring around the rails.

The warning in your Astra about not having anything pushing into the seat bite is a new one for me, and I read a lot of manuals these days, most of them in the '07-'10 range.

I have yet to see the word "bracing" in any manual, and I'm always looking.

I do however see a lot of this statement: "don't let anyone kick the back of the front seat".

I hope to see a day where we can have a straight answer on all of it. With actual words like "rear facing tether", and "bracing".

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Pretty sure the no kicking isn't in the Astra manual either. However, I wouldn't interpret the no kicking as not allowing bracing... kicking is a sudden movement which can interrupt the sensors - could cause on/off type of thing if that makes sense? Bracing is steady.

I think the other thing is how do you define bracing?

I define bracing as the carseat and the vehicle seat placing pressure on each other. So the only seats which are truly braced are those with a rf'ing tether. All the rest the most that can happen is that the carseat and vehicle seat slightly touch - because that front vehicle seat is only going to be moved back as far as it can without changing the positioning of the carseat. And if the front vehicle seat would otherwise change the position of the carseat, then it's not braced - if you get what I mean?

Our 07 Outlook (same as Acadia, Enclave and Traverse,) has no warnings about anything in that regard either.

It is however something I rarely have to deal with because only a small percent of the seats I see allow rf tethering, and of the ones I do see I don't rf tether. I tell the parents to go home, do their research, and decide for themselves. I'm not willing to recommend for or against it, so at that point it's up to the parent to worry about any vehicle specifics since the rf tethering "go research it" conversation always includes the reasons why I won't make a recommendation.