Middle of back seat & arm rests?

On another forum - I've tried to tell them to come here, but they're stubborn - 2 people have now said that they were told by techs to NOT place a RF seat in the middle of the back seat due to arm rests. One vehicle is a Jetta, I have no idea what the other one is.
One of them was also told that it should not go in the middle because the middle seat didn't have the LUAS.

I'm no expert, so the arm rest thing is confusing the crap out of me. The LUAS vs seatbelt thing I know is wrong, as when installed properly, neither is MORE safe than the other (and I've heard of some people who couldn't get a good fit with the LUAS anyways).

Can anyone shed any light on the arm rest situation?

ETA: Both of the posters are from Ontario, Canada (I'm in Alberta).

TIA,
Melissa

Evenflo used to not allow a RF seat in front of a flip down armrest - they've changed that though.

A few vehicle manufacturers also have had restrictions in centre seating positions with armrests, but VW isn't one of them.

I think the current curriculum still has no rf seat in front of a fold-down armrest. Unless the instructor is more updated and would update his/her teaching material, the standard 'official line' sticks. So that might explains about the techs saying no rf w/ fold-down armrest.

I took some tech training about 6wks ago and that curriculum stated it is now OK to put a CR in a seating position with an armrest as long as the CR manufacturer and automaker don't have a specific warning about doing so.

We were taught that no CR manufacturers still carry the warning, and that only a very few automakers still do. As usual, read, read, read those manuals people.

Thanks guys! I'm going to post this thread to that forum.



Melissa

canadiangie said:

As usual, read, read, read those manuals people.

Click to expand...

Sounds like something I say..often

-N.

QuassEE said:

A few vehicle manufacturers also have had restrictions in centre seating positions with armrests, but VW isn't one of them.

Click to expand...

I posted all the comments individually (in case the people there didn't want to come here to read them) and this one was quoted with the response:

"Sorry, not sure where this person is getting her/his info. from, but I went to Volkswagen themselves to install my car seat since many of their dealerships have a certified car seat tech. This is what I was told by VW themselves. They DO have restrictions and this is coming for a certified car seat installer and manager of the VW dealership I was at."

I don't have a VW, never have, not a tech... so I'm guessing that it's something related to model year of the specific vehicle. Do you have any further insight into this?

I appreciate that people are going to qualified people - techs - to have their seats checked, but some people seem to take a tech's word as if it came straight from god. Every tech - I assume - is human and I don't see there being any sort of possibility that every single tech (or any individual one) can know *every* detail about every specific car (of any year) and every detail about every car seat currently on the market (as well as those from a few years ago which can still be used safely). There's just too many possible combinations. I think it's a sad representation of our society that everyone is willing to put the responsibility on to someone else.

I live in a city where it's not possible to just go to a fire station or VW dealership to have your car seat checked (though I did see a lone person with a tent set up in the TRU parking lot last weekend), and though I'm sure that there are many many seats incorrectly installed here because of that, I think the upside is that it forces people to figure out how to do it themselves. Given that I'm a very internet-savvy person and I found it *very* difficult to figure out where I could go to get a car seat checked, even though I now know, I will still be doing everything in my power to make sure I don't need to rely on a tech to teach me how to install the seat. I'd feel more comfortable if I installed it and had someone check to make sure it was right, but if I needed them to show me how to do it, then what would I do if I had to change vehicles or got a different seat and they weren't there? I'd be lost.

Ok, rant over. I guess I'm just frustrated with society as a whole and people's general refusal to take responsibility for themselves. Read the manuals, try to do it on your own, ask for help if you need it, but don't rely on another person to know more than you do about your own vehicle and your own car seat.

On a related topic, does anyone have any idea WHY installing a RF CR where there's an arm rest is bad? I don't own a vehicle with arm rests, but I spend much of my child hood in a GM Safari minivan that had arm rests and I can't picture how they could harm a child in a crash.

Thanks again,
Melissa

Please ask them what vehicle it is. I'm not aware of any of the new 2010s coming out with restrictions for the centre seating position, but I may be wrong on that one. We don't always know all the details of the new model year right away. Also have the owner quote the section of their vehicle manual where it states the restriction, for further reference. I desperately want us to have the correct information here, please let her know, and so this is of the utmost importance if we've managed to miss such a huge restriction!

My guess is that they were confusing no centre LATCH with no centre USE.

-Nicole.

QuassEE said:

My guess is that they were confusing no centre LATCH with no centre USE.

-Nicole.

Click to expand...

It's probably exactly this.

Believe me, in terms of CPS errors, the people LEAST likely to make a mistake of that magnitude are posting/moderating this board.

Incidentally, there is no such thing as a "Certified Car Seat Installer" so if the mother who claims to have spoken to one was told that, she was sold a bill of goods.

I have posted both your question/concern Nicole and your statement about car seat installer Maedze.

As soon as I get a response, I'll post it here.

Apparently the concern with the Jetta isn't the arm rest in the back seat (which doesn't exist) but actually the one in the FRONT seat, with the potential to either open (if it has a flip-top compartment) or be forced backward into a RF CR directly behind it. As I said, I don't have a VW so I know nothing about arm rests in them, or for that matter, in any other vehicle.

Melissa

"I can gladly give her their number and she can debate this until the cows come home with them. I on the other hand, trust what they've told me so I'm good. I prefer to spend the time with my child versus on the phone with VW when I now own a Honda!

Yorkdale Volkswagen
600 Wilson Ave
Toronto, ON M3K1C9

P: (416) 741-7480

ETA: My Jetta was a 1998 and had a fold out armrest in the back not the front."


And I guess this answers one of my questions - that it is likely the older models that had the restrictions. A 1998 Jetta didn't have the LUAS, did it? So that wouldn't have been the issue.
Still confused about what possible harm an arm rest could do. Or maybe it's that they didn't know, so better safe than sorry? I can accept that, just curious.

Melissa

I personally had (and my ex-DH still has) a 1997 Jetta GLX. There was no such restriction. Were that a risk, an occupant sitting in that centre seating position would be at far greater risk than a child occupying a restraint.

-Nicole.

dogmelissa said:

I posted all the comments individually (in case the people there didn't want to come here to read them) and this one was quoted with the response:

"Sorry, not sure where this person is getting her/his info. from, but I went to Volkswagen themselves to install my car seat since many of their dealerships have a certified car seat tech. This is what I was told by VW themselves. They DO have restrictions and this is coming for a certified car seat installer and manager of the VW dealership I was at."

I don't have a VW, never have, not a tech... so I'm guessing that it's something related to model year of the specific vehicle. Do you have any further insight into this?

I appreciate that people are going to qualified people - techs - to have their seats checked, but some people seem to take a tech's word as if it came straight from god. Every tech - I assume - is human and I don't see there being any sort of possibility that every single tech (or any individual one) can know *every* detail about every specific car (of any year) and every detail about every car seat currently on the market (as well as those from a few years ago which can still be used safely). There's just too many possible combinations. I think it's a sad representation of our society that everyone is willing to put the responsibility on to someone else.

I live in a city where it's not possible to just go to a fire station or VW dealership to have your car seat checked (though I did see a lone person with a tent set up in the TRU parking lot last weekend), and though I'm sure that there are many many seats incorrectly installed here because of that, I think the upside is that it forces people to figure out how to do it themselves. Given that I'm a very internet-savvy person and I found it *very* difficult to figure out where I could go to get a car seat checked, even though I now know, I will still be doing everything in my power to make sure I don't need to rely on a tech to teach me how to install the seat. I'd feel more comfortable if I installed it and had someone check to make sure it was right, but if I needed them to show me how to do it, then what would I do if I had to change vehicles or got a different seat and they weren't there? I'd be lost.
Ok, rant over. I guess I'm just frustrated with society as a whole and people's general refusal to take responsibility for themselves. Read the manuals, try to do it on your own, ask for help if you need it, but don't rely on another person to know more than you do about your own vehicle and your own car seat.

On a related topic, does anyone have any idea WHY installing a RF CR where there's an arm rest is bad? I don't own a vehicle with arm rests, but I spend much of my child hood in a GM Safari minivan that had arm rests and I can't picture how they could harm a child in a crash.

Thanks again,
Melissa

Click to expand...

Melissa, is this your writing or someone else's?


For the record (for those lurking out there) a good technician educates and empowers a parent to feel more confident in their ability to install their seat. I realize that old fashioned seat checking events tended to be a rushed ordeal where techs sort of 'did it for' the parent, but that's bever been preferable, and none of us want it to be that way. Nowadays the benefit of meeting one-on-one with a technician in a private setting is that you get to have your work checked (if applicable), get to work closely with the tech, ask questions, learn about your seat, and your vehicle, move the seat from vehicle to vehicle (most famlies have more than one vehicle), and really gain a sense of confidence.

canadiangie said:

Melissa, is this your writing or someone else's?

For the record (for those lurking out there) a good technician educates and empowers a parent to feel more confident in their ability to install their seat. I realize that old fashioned seat checking events tended to be a rushed ordeal where techs sort of 'did it for' the parent, but that's bever been preferable, and none of us want it to be that way. Nowadays the benefit of meeting one-on-one with a technician in a private setting is that you get to have your work checked (if applicable), get to work closely with the tech, ask questions, learn about your seat, and your vehicle, move the seat from vehicle to vehicle (most famlies have more than one vehicle), and really gain a sense of confidence.

Click to expand...

Yep, my writing.

Your description of a good tech sounds great. And I'm sure these people exist in Calgary, but I think the bigger problem is that *finding* these people is not something that many Calgarians can do, especially if they're recent immigrants and have a language barrier. If I hadn't found this site - which was an interesting search path to get to - I wouldn't have had a clue that there even was techs in Calgary. St John Ambulance offers courses and has volunteers techs, but if you hadn't gone to the 'car seat install' discussion (from what I can tell of it it's an instructor TELLING a group of people how to install car seats and when to move from RF to FF to booster), where I assume they give you further info on how to contact the techs, then how would people find them? They don't advertise, or at least I haven't seen any ads, and I can't imagine if you were coming from another country with a child, having to get a car, car seat and figure out how to install it and potentially having a language barrier so you can't even read the books, and on top of it not being able to find a tech.

Anyhow... I don't have any suggestions on how more people can be reached, but I'm really just kind of lost as to why even basic checks aren't offered at police stations and firehalls here anymore. If a cop can give you a ticket for improper installation of your car seat, then they obviously know enough to help you get it in properly! I don't understand it. *shrug* oh well, it is what it is.

Melissa

dogmelissa said:

On a related topic, does anyone have any idea WHY installing a RF CR where there's an arm rest is bad? I don't own a vehicle with arm rests, but I spend much of my child hood in a GM Safari minivan that had arm rests and I can't picture how they could harm a child in a crash.

Click to expand...

Just guessing, but maybe because the test sleds don't have arm rests, so there is no test data on how the child restraints will work on a seat that DOES have arm rests.

bubbaray said:

Just guessing, but maybe because the test sleds don't have arm rests, so there is no test data on how the child restraints will work on a seat that DOES have arm rests.

Click to expand...

That sounds reasonable... makes you wonder why the manufacturers wouldn't test these scenarios in order to KNOW whether they should put the info in their manuals or not. Especially in some of the minivans with lots of seats and lots of arm rests. They're built for lots of people, so being able to tell parents where their kids will be safe (and not) seems like it would just be a logical thing to do.

*shrug* So far, I don't have to worry about it - no vehicles in our family with arm rests either in the front or the back.

Thanks,
Melissa

dogmelissa said:

"I can gladly give her their number and she can debate this until the cows come home with them. I on the other hand, trust what they've told me so I'm good. I prefer to spend the time with my child versus on the phone with VW when I now own a Honda!

Yorkdale Volkswagen
600 Wilson Ave
Toronto, ON M3K1C9

P: (416) 741-7480

ETA: My Jetta was a 1998 and had a fold out armrest in the back not the front."


And I guess this answers one of my questions - that it is likely the older models that had the restrictions. A 1998 Jetta didn't have the LUAS, did it? So that wouldn't have been the issue.

Click to expand...

My best guess is that the techs at Yorkdale VW might have been taught a while back when the curriculum still has no rf seat with fold-down armrest. A tech certification is good for 3 yrs and unless the techs update him/herself regularly, the curriculum is what he/she knows, kwim?

And where can a tech get updated info? Mostly in places like this where information come from parents, advocates, techs, sometimes manufacturers, regulators, etc. But I can guarantee you that not all the techs are here

And 1998 vehicles wouldn't have UAS and UAS are not retrofitted.

Some VW's can be retrofitted with the LUAS. As for the arm rest - if the base of the infant seat is over the fold down crease then there does not appear to be a problem. Evenflo did prohibit it years ago due to a legal case in the US, but I don't think any CRS manufacturer prohibits it any more - not sure of the vehicle manfucturers - that's why it's important to read all the instructions! When I "install" I ensure that I cannot pull down the arm rest once the IRS is in. If I can move it (the arm rest) I re-install in another seating position. I understand the frustration about the AB non-car seat events. It was a decision of SJA and the health departments to give talks instead of checking installs.

VW staff have not been trained for a number of years, so the information might be old. And, if the CRS/IRS manufacturers tested for arm rest contact, they would have to do an in-vehicle crash test, for EVERY vehicle with an arm rest. The cost would be prohibitive......

Some people just insist on absolute proof of anything, yet don't provide enough information to help them find it.

From the other forum:
"Could you please give us the link to where you asked these people your question. It could be very easy for someone to make-up people who support what they are saying. Not saying this is what you have done, just saying it would be good if we could also contact them. I would hate to be accused of taking random information from a web site without any actual research."
(I had already linked this specific thread, but someone else linked the forum in general in response)
and then:
"Yes, but where are the links to the information those people used to prove that the have the correct information? They are just random people. I'm not going to take the word of an everyday joe blow just b/c they are on a forum and say that they know it all. I want links to government, car makers or carseat websites that show the research and have the proof."

There's really no need to reply to this, it's more a vent than anything. Just wanting to share.

Melissa