Mazda 5, Honda Fit, Toyota Matrix?

southpawboston said:

and the same thing applies to toyota, nissan, audi, BMW, VW, renault, citroen, etc... they all have wonderful, practical small cars sold elsewhere in the world. why aren't they bringing them here? there's no need to redesign anything. the cars that the obama administration wants by 2016 already exist.

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No idea why they don't bring em over. I know they talk about the cost of federalizing, but it can't be that much. They did it with the fit so there's a business case for these cars. Dealers make more off the Fit than the Civic cuz the discounts are less. Americans know there are cooler cars across the two oceans. If they're good, we'll buy them.

codex57 said:

No idea why they don't bring em over. I know they talk about the cost of federalizing, but it can't be that much. They did it with the fit so there's a business case for these cars. Dealers make more off the Fit than the Civic cuz the discounts are less. Americans know there are cooler cars across the two oceans. If they're good, we'll buy them.

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Why? Because gas is cheap here compared to anywhere else in the world. For every one of us who want these alternatives, there are 10 other families who demand the freedom to buy that V6 minivan or V8 SUV or pickup truck. Until we tax gas like they do in Europe, there just isn't enough incentive to sell many of these vehicles without government regulation.

CPSDarren said:

Why? Because gas is cheap here compared to anywhere else in the world. For every one of us who want these alternatives, there are 10 other families who demand the freedom to buy that V6 minivan or V8 SUV or pickup truck. Until we tax gas like they do in Europe, there just isn't enough incentive to sell many of these vehicles without government regulation.

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is it really that the automakers don't have enough profit incentive? don't the sales of honda fits alone demonstrate that there is *enough* demand for a quality, small car?

southpawboston said:

is it really that the automakers don't have enough profit incentive? don't the sales of honda fits alone demonstrate that there is *enough* demand for a quality, small car?

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I think the problem is that in the USA, there isn't enough demand to make tons of small cars profitable, only a select few. Once people have incentive not to commute in pickups, minivans and SUVs, there will be plenty of profit for lots of small car models.

I was just looking at SUV fuel economy. How sad is this?

Honda CR-V 20/27
Subaru Forester 20/27
Toyota Rav4 22/28

Those are the big three, right? The Rav4 is marginal I guess, but I'm thinking all of these tiny SUVs could be getting better mileage than a Mazda5.

Admin said:

I think the problem is that in the USA, there isn't enough demand to make tons of small cars profitable, only a select few. Once people have incentive not to commute in pickups, minivans and SUVs, there will be plenty of profit for lots of small car models.

I was just looking at SUV fuel economy. How sad is this?

Honda CR-V 20/27
Subaru Forester 20/27
Toyota Rav4 22/28

Those are the big three, right? The Rav4 is marginal I guess, but I'm thinking all of these tiny SUVs could be getting better mileage than a Mazda5.

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The Mazda5 is 21/27, so actually the Toyota gets better mileage than the Mazda5, and the Honda and Subaru aren't that far behind.

pixels99 said:

The Mazda5 is 21/27, so actually the Toyota gets better mileage than the Mazda5, and the Honda and Subaru aren't that far behind.

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My point was that they should all be doing a lot better, given that they are essentially 5-passenger compact or midsize vehicles.

My RAV gets as good gas mileage as my Jetta was getting, in real life. And it's a much bigger car. Also, I think if you want to compare you should compare SUVs to larger cars, like the Camry or whatnot. I believe if you compared the stats of the RAV with a compact or midsize car, you'd see it is much larger. It's much, much larger than my Jetta. If I were to replace my SUV with a sedan it would be a Camry or similar. Also, there are a lot of things about the larger car that I like beyond gas mileage. So the incentive has to be elsewhere. Obviously people aren't buying SUVs with gas mileage in mind or they'd buy something else.

MomE said:

My RAV gets as good gas mileage as my Jetta was getting, in real life. And it's a much bigger car. Also, I think if you want to compare you should compare SUVs to larger cars, like the Camry or whatnot. I believe if you compared the stats of the RAV with a compact or midsize car, you'd see it is much larger. It's much, much larger than my Jetta. If I were to replace my SUV with a sedan it would be a Camry or similar. Also, there are a lot of things about the larger car that I like beyond gas mileage. So the incentive has to be elsewhere. Obviously people aren't buying SUVs with gas mileage in mind or they'd buy something else.

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That's exactly the point. People don't like paying $3 or $4 for gas, but until gas is $5 or more, most will avoid buying fuel efficient vehicles in order to have the freedom to buy models with tons of space, obscene acceleration, the ability to plow through mud and terrain or tow thousands of pounds, even though these features are rarely ever actually needed by most drivers. That gives manufacturers no incentive to bring over or develop more choices in fuel efficient models.

Europe doesn't have this consumer freedom mentality, yet somehow they manage to get around. They have expensive gas and, not surprisingly, a much smaller fleet of vehicles as well.

I think that money and cost of the car has to play a part in it. People aren't just going to rush right out and buy a new car because gas prices are high. Many don't have money sitting around or can't qualify for a loan.

And the reason I drive the RAV.... Oh, boy, it's a long story.... I bought the car for my mother who is single and has rental properties far away from her home and no property manager. She needs the space to be able to haul around stuff to fix up her properties and her packed bags and air matress to live on for days or weeks. So she uses the space that compact cars and sedans don't offer. She's also a very large woman and disabled. The RAV was the easiest car for her to get in and out of. Actually, she couldn't even fit in a CRV. Then I was in an accident, my car was totaled, and I don't have the luxury of being able to afford a replacement. So here I am in it.

So, anyway, there's so many different reasons for why this country is in the situation it is in. The state of our transportation system is a mess... Thanks to American Dream and a house in the 'burbs, etc. And here we are. And it goes on and on and on until you're so wrapped up in this debate you can't find your way out.... Simply slapping a gas tax on or raising gas prices isn't going to solve the whole problem. As a matter of fact, it (alone, without addressing the other issues) has the potential to really widen the gap between the haves and have nots.... And don't even get me started on that.... I live in California....

ETA: All that said, I'm not opposed to a gas tax, and I'd pay it gladly if it meant it would go toward solving the other issues. But see my earlier comment about living in California.... We gave the state BILLIONS to solve our transportation issues. And they aren't solved and now we are about to lose services VITAL to our public (health care, education, etc). And our stinking Governor wants to blame it on us. To which I say, "Show me results! And I'll show you money!" Anyway.... I've ranted too long, and this thread is thoroughly hijacked...

southpawboston said:

is it really that the automakers don't have enough profit incentive? don't the sales of honda fits alone demonstrate that there is *enough* demand for a quality, small car?

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That's my thinking. I mean, sure, until gas hits $5/gal again, I don't expect to see the kinds of choices Europe has. But, the Fit is definitely a success. Carmakers love to copy. They've already got the cars so it's a lot easier to bring over a competitor. The Fit doesn't really have any competitors. The Yaris, I'm sorry, sucks big time. With Toyota out of the picture, the other companies have ample room to pick up some much needed sales. Ford, Nissan, etc. All can throw out a small 6 seater and cherry pick some sales.

Admin said:

I think the problem is that in the USA, there isn't enough demand to make tons of small cars profitable, only a select few. Once people have incentive not to commute in pickups, minivans and SUVs, there will be plenty of profit for lots of small car models.

I was just looking at SUV fuel economy. How sad is this?

Honda CR-V 20/27
Subaru Forester 20/27
Toyota Rav4 22/28

Those are the big three, right? The Rav4 is marginal I guess, but I'm thinking all of these tiny SUVs could be getting better mileage than a Mazda5.

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you would think they would get better mileage given their smaller size, and if they weren't AWD and didn't have high-profile tires--both of which are big contributors to rolling resistance, they might actually get 2-3 mpg better. i have already determined that my winter tires, which have greater rolling resistance than my summer tires, decrease my highway mileage by about 2 mpg on average. if i had to constantly spin a center differential as well as two additional CV joints, i'm guessing that would be another 1 mpg hit, at the least.

boxiness of the small SUVs as well as a high ground clearance, which causes air turbulence beneath the vehicle, may be another contributing factor. i also determined that the fairing for my yakima roof rack further decreases my mileage.

in the EU, you can't even buy the mazda5 with the 2.3L engine, which is the sole engine option in the US. the largest engine you can buy it with over there is the 2.0L, which, in US mazda3s, returns low-mid 30s mileage. so i'm guessing a mazda5 in EU returns low 30s.

i would have gladly opted for a smaller engine in my mazda3. my city mileage sucks, big-time. i've had tanks that average 18mpg with all stop and go driving. why do i need a 2.3L engine that brings the car to 60mph in 7.5 sec? how often do i get to have that kind of fun? i would have gladly taken a poky 1.8L engine if it meant getting 25mpg city and 40mpg hwy. my biggest gripe about the US auto industry is not that they are making the big SUVs and full-size cars. my biggest gripe is that they aren't giving us the options to buy smaller cars, and also to spec the existing cars the way we want with multiple engine options. how much does it add to the overhead of automakers' costs to provide those additional options to the consumer?

pixels99 said:

The Mazda5 is 21/27, so actually the Toyota gets better mileage than the Mazda5, and the Honda and Subaru aren't that far behind.

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Where did you get the stat for the Mazda 5? I get considerably better than that, unless I've got it fully loaded (and by that I mean six people with suitcases and duffle bags literally piled and stuffed all around them.) Empty, I've got up to 30mpg on the highway. I average 25mg, which is mixed city/highway driving, about 30% highway & 70% city.

Granted, mine's a manual transmission, so maybe that's the difference?

Defrost said:

Where did you get the stat for the Mazda 5? I get considerably better than that, unless I've got it fully loaded (and by that I mean six people with suitcases and duffle bags literally piled and stuffed all around them.) Empty, I've got up to 30mpg on the highway. I average 25mg, which is mixed city/highway driving, about 30% highway & 70% city.

Granted, mine's a manual transmission, so maybe that's the difference?

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From Mazda's website for the 2009 model. Those are the EPA numbers, of course your mileage may vary. I did quote the automatic numbers, but I believe the manual was only one mph better.

pixels99 said:

From Mazda's website for the 2009 model. Those are the EPA numbers, of course your mileage may vary. I did quote the automatic numbers, but I believe the manual was only one mph better.

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Weird... I must be thinking their stated numbers are higher because I was only comparing to minivans. I don't think any of the minivans get higher than 20 for city, which was my beef when I was shopping.

I suppose the big difference in comparison to the SUVs is that the Mazda 5 seats six, while those SUVs only seat five. That just knocks them right off my radar, being a family of six, yk?

I have a 2008 Mazda 5 and we are in love with it (and this is a big thing for 2 people that used to hate minivans to admit). I'm 5'2" and DH is 6'2" and both of us find it comfy to drive. We have 2 kids DS was RF in a MA behind the driver until we had to FF him last month and DD is in a SS1 behind the passenger. I've had both of their seats in the third row a few times and they fit there as well. I also have had an AOE FF in the second and third row without a problem for a few times when we drove friends/relatives.

My car before this was an Acura EL (I think you only get them in Canada - it's basically a Civic) and I love small cars. We wanted something that we could occasionally fit 6 people in but didn't want a huge SUV or van mostly because of the fuel costs. We got a manual transmission since I prefer driving them and it helps with the gas. I'm absolutely in LOVE with my sliding doors and I don't think I'll ever be able to go back I also love being able to fit 4 car seats in the back since between my sister and I we have 4 kids under 3 and we can actually get them all in one car. It's also been great when folks come to visit and we don't have to take 2 cars everywhere.

My only pet peeve about it is the rear vents don't spit out heated air. I thought it was broken and took it in to get fixed only to be told that it wasn't supposed to.

Seriously, I drive a minivan. I don't need 240hp or whatever is in it. I bet 180hp would be adeqate, less with a diesel. Also, if you can stick a hybrid in a Tahoe, you can put one in a minivan or small SUV. The Escape and Civic are conventional models with full hybrid powertrains. More small cars and SUVs should have them, too.

CPSDarren said:

Seriously, I drive a minivan. I don't need 240hp or whatever is in it. I bet 180hp would be adeqate, less with a diesel. Also, if you can stick a hybrid in a Tahoe, you can put one in a minivan or small SUV. The Escape and Civic are conventional models with full hybrid powertrains. More small cars and SUVs should have them, too.

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The Escape and the Highlander are proof it can be done! And, yes, I'd LOVE to see more cars as hybrids!

And the RAV only has 179hp.

We rented a Mazda5 for the weekend and reasonabley loaded (2 adults and 3 kids in seats, clothes and snacks) we got 24-29 on the highway depending on weather/terrain. DH and I both thought it should do better. Our 4 wheel drive Jeep gets 23 on the highway.

We wish we had more diesel options. We'd love to get something like Mazda5 with just a little more cargo room and 7 seats but it looks like we might be stuck with a mini van that's a little too large, or a Mazda5/Rondo that's a little too small. Not much in between!

MomE said:

The Escape and the Highlander are proof it can be done! And, yes, I'd LOVE to see more cars as hybrids!

And the RAV only has 179hp.

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well the mazda5 has only 153 .

i can't believe we're bragging about how *little* horsepower our cars have.

MomE said:

The Escape and the Highlander are proof it can be done! And, yes, I'd LOVE to see more cars as hybrids!

And the RAV only has 179hp.

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That's the 4 cylinder version. The V6 RAV4 has 269 hp, wowzers. I also concur that a hybrid minivan is long overdue. Our '94 Saturn SL1 had 85 hp and was a gas sipper, with 40 mpg easily attainable for most highway driving and low 30s for mixed driving. And the SL1 was pretty much 1980s technology, lol.