Just a little vent!

My son has outgrown his convertible carseat. A while back I bought him the Graco Nautilus for my vehicle. My husband was unhappy that I spent that kind of money and wanted a booster instead. Well now my husband needs a carseat in HIS car for my son b/c he is picking him up more often. He is INSISTING on a booster! And what's worse is NO ONE I talk to seems to agree with me! Everyone seems to think a booster is perfectly fine for a 4 yr old. I just don't understand why safety isn't the number one priority. I bought another Graco (b/c it is the cheapest of the higher weight harnesses... I would've preferred something else as I don't particularly care for the short crotch strap in the nautilus) and my husband is ticked and wants me to return it. I keep reading everywhere a 5 point harness is safer but I can't find ANY STATISTICS to back it up so I can't "prove it" to my husband. Can anyone help me out?

Your son is four -- which end of four? Closer to three or closer to five? And how tall is he and how much does he weigh?

He turned 4 in mid January and he is 46 pounds & 41 inches, thanks!

I don't think it's unreasonable to begin booster-training at this age/size. By booster-training, I mean short trips (5 minutes or less to start) around the neighborhood, in familiar territory. Get the child used to the freedom of movement a booster allows, and the rules regarding booster use. IMO, it takes practice before a kiddo is mature enough to handle sitting in a booster full-time, without forgetting and leaning out of position or pushing the shoulderbelt down/behind the back.

I think most parents simply go by what's on the booster box. If it's sold/labeled for kids 3+/30#+, it MUST be safe. They don't stop to consider the extra feedom of movement the booster allows the child, and that moving to a booster means the CHILD is now responsible for being properly restrained at all times, not the parent.

We can't expect most kids to move to a booster, have that extra freedom, and NOT test the boundaries like they do in most other areas of life. Try explaining it to your husband this way, and then try compromising on a good highback booster YOU can live with, on a trial basis. Insist on a harnessed seat for any longer trips, if that's what makes you most comfortable. Your husband needs to understand that the key thing is to ensure the child is sitting properly 100% of the time in the booster. If he's not, he won't be protected, period.

I should probably mention my husband got at least 3 speeding tickets last year (that he got out of due to knowing people) and he was in 2 accidents.

scatterbunny said:

I don't think it's unreasonable to begin booster-training at this age/size. By booster-training, I mean short trips (5 minutes or less to start) around the neighborhood, in familiar territory. Get the child used to the freedom of movement a booster allows, and the rules regarding booster use. IMO, it takes practice before a kiddo is mature enough to handle sitting in a booster full-time, without forgetting and leaning out of position or pushing the shoulderbelt down/behind the back.

I think most parents simply go by what's on the booster box. If it's sold/labeled for kids 3+/30#+, it MUST be safe. They don't stop to consider the extra feedom of movement the booster allows the child, and that moving to a booster means the CHILD is now responsible for being properly restrained at all times, not the parent.

We can't expect most kids to move to a booster, have that extra freedom, and NOT test the boundaries like they do in most other areas of life. Try explaining it to your husband this way, and then try compromising on a good highback booster YOU can live with, on a trial basis. Insist on a harnessed seat for any longer trips, if that's what makes you most comfortable. Your husband needs to understand that the key thing is to ensure the child is sitting properly 100% of the time in the booster. If he's not, he won't be protected, period.

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I am 100% certain he would not sit correctly. He routinely gets his arms out of the 5 point harness and I have to make him get back in. I can only imagine in a booster he'd be out of the seat entirely.

Robinelli said:

I should probably mention my husband got at least 3 speeding tickets last year (that he got out of due to knowing people) and he was in 2 accidents.

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Was he at fault in the accidents?

Anyway, in this case, I personally would push for the Nautilus. You can use the booster to start booster training on trips when you drive. :twocents:

DH just isn't convinced a booster isn't as safe as a harness. He's read that there is no increase in fatalities with boosters. I argued that while that may be true (I've also seen those statistics) that boosters DO increase severe to life-threatening injuries (over a harness). I can find those statements but not the statistics. I think a lot of people are afraid of making boosters look bad b/c so many people don't even bother using them now and they are CRITICAL for children to use. They are obviously much preferred to an adult lap belt alone.

Robinelli said:

I am 100% certain he would not sit correctly. He routinely gets his arms out of the 5 point harness and I have to make him get back in. I can only imagine in a booster he'd be out of the seat entirely.

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Then he must remain harnessed to remain safe. If he's out of position at the moment of a crash, he will not be protected. Tell your husband you asked a Child Passenger Safety Technician and that's what you were told.

BookMama said:

Was he at fault in the accidents?

Anyway, in this case, I personally would push for the Nautilus. You can use the booster to start booster training on trips when you drive. :twocents:

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That's a good point. If he won't budge on the booster b/c of "cost" (personally I think it is "convenience") I'll offer to use the booster and make him take the Nautilus. Thanks for the suggestion.

pixels99 said:

Then he must remain harnessed to remain safe. Tell your husband you asked a Child Passenger Safety Technician and that's what you were told.

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LOL I'll do that

I really wish I could send him some hard stats though. I just feel like he is NOT listening to my arguments.

Given the provided information, I, uh, probably wouldn't let your husband drive your child again until he proved he could drive responsibly :twocents:

Robinelli said:

I should probably mention my husband got at least 3 speeding tickets last year (that he got out of due to knowing people) and he was in 2 accidents.

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Robinelli said:

I am 100% certain he would not sit correctly. He routinely gets his arms out of the 5 point harness and I have to make him get back in. I can only imagine in a booster he'd be out of the seat entirely.

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With that info given, I agree with the others, now is not the time to start booster-training. Your son is just too immature to handle it yet.

Robinelli said:

DH just isn't convinced a booster isn't as safe as a harness. He's read that there is no increase in fatalities with boosters. I argued that while that may be true (I've also seen those statistics) that boosters DO increase severe to life-threatening injuries (over a harness). I can find those statements but not the statistics. I think a lot of people are afraid of making boosters look bad b/c so many people don't even bother using them now and they are CRITICAL for children to use. They are obviously much preferred to an adult lap belt alone.

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It's true, finding hard statistics on booster vs. harness is difficult to impossible. The data just isn't there, not like it is for the rear-facing vs. forward-facing debate. However, we do know for a FACT that a booster+seatbelt will NOT protect anyone who is not positioned properly at the time of impact. Since we can't choose when we get in a crash, it's imperative that the child be seated in a restraint that actually restrains him.

If he is too wiggly and impulsive to sit properly in the booster, he's not safe in the booster, period.

BookMama said:

I personally would push for the Nautilus. You can use the booster to start booster training on trips when you drive. :twocents:

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That's the way I'm leaning now, as well, but if the OP's dh balks at using the Nautilus in his car, I'd lean toward Maedze's idea of just not letting him drive the child, period.

Maedze said:

Given the provided information, I, uh, probably wouldn't let your husband drive your child again until he proved he could drive responsibly :twocents:

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If he can't understand the need for proper positioning/maturity for booster use to be safe, he probably shouldn't be in charge of transporting any children. Hopefully the explanations here can help convince him that the child just isn't ready for the switch to booster yet.

Maybe you can find some ammo here:

Great thread here:
Ready for a booster?

Isabelle's Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2LFo8vVi04

http://isabelle-broadhead.memory-of.com/About.aspx

Isabelle died as a result of an injury sustained by her adult belt in a low impact car accident. She was seated in the rear left middle seat of our people mover. She was seated in a high backed booster seat and it utilised the three point lap and sash belt. It was fitted as directed. This injury was Isabelle's only injury and had she not sustained this injury she would be here today. Her gift to you (amongst others) is the knowledge that children under five or 18kg should always remain in a five point harness. Isabelle outgrew her 0-4 seat- weighing 20.5kg and being 105cm tall. We knew she wasn't safe in her baby seat and wrongly assumed Isabelle had to move to a booster. The label on her booster stated it was safe for 14-26kg. We believed that the Australian Standards were the toughest in the world and that this was what was safe for her.

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http://babyproducts.about.com/od/carseats/qt/baby_booster.htm

Any step up in car seats - from rear-facing to forward-facing, from harness to booster - is actually a step down in safety. The 5-point harness spreads crash forces over more points on a child's body, lessening the potential force any one part of the body must take in a crash. If your child's harnessed car seat is used with a top tether, he or she can benefit from a reduction in head excursion during a crash, which translates to fewer and less severe head and neck injuries.

From a practical standpoint, parents tend to have an easier time keeping their child in the harnessed car seat altogether. The vehicle lap/shoulder belt is much easier to unbuckle than a harness buckle, so if your child is an escape artist, the problem may grow after moving into a booster. More importantly, the child must be able to sit in the proper position and be able to stay there in order to be safe in a booster seat. This means no leaning forward, sideways, slouching, or wiggling out of the shoulder portion of the seatbelt. The seatbelt cannot protect a child who is not in the proper position. Most children cannot be trusted to sit properly until at least 4 years old. Many parents find that their child is actually much older than 4 before they can be expected to sit still in a booster.

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http://www.hpw.gov.yk.ca/trans/transportservices/roadsafety/carseat/435.html

Forward-Facing car seats with harness system

The harness system of a forward-facing restraint system spreads the forces of a crash over the body structure. A child's skeletal system cannot withstand the concentrated forces exhibited by just a seat belt assemly alone. In addition, the crotch strap keeps the child in place and prevents submarining or slipping out of the harnness and getting ejected from your vehicle.

The effectiveness of the restraint is dependent upon the appropiateness to the child, securing the child properly in the car seat and the car seat being correctly installed in the vehicle.

Therefore, the longer you can keep them in a harness system the safer they will become. There are car seats on the market that will accommedate a child up to 65lbs with a harness system. (Please ensure that you are buying from a Canadian Company)

Booster seats with a lap/shoulder belt

Booster seats correct the lap and shoulder belt fit. The use of the booster seat helps to avoid injuries to the lower spine, and to the abdominal organs. These injuries occur when the lap belt is up on the abdomen instead of on the hip bones. Booster seats are designed for children weighing over 40lbs. (Our legislation states your child must be 48lbs before using a booster seat, but please remember that your child is safer in a harness system than just a seat belt/booster seat combination)

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I wouldn't let him drive with the kid unless he has him properly restrained. If the child is too immature to ride in a booster (like most kids his age..) then he isn't properly restrained in a booster.

If it were me, this would be a situation where it's my way or no way. Be firm.

Can you try a 'just humor me' and I'll save money elsewhere since I'm buying this 5pt seat now type of thing?

Remind him that you're not insisting on a 5pt carseat for fun, it's for a real reason. You wouldn't want to spend unnecessary money on something you don't need. It's very important to you.

Tell him the only booster you'll consider costs over $200.

Robinelli said:

I really wish I could send him some hard stats though. I just feel like he is NOT listening to my arguments.

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Tell him that since he drives like Mario Andretti (I'm not a Nascar fan, insert any fast car driver here) you want your son HARNESSED like Mario Andretti in his vehicle.

I wish there were some hard statistics out there also and my DH is very much like yours OP (well minus the speeding & accidents! ) He was 100% not convinced that my kids were better off in harnesses at their ages, we had this discussion last fall so DD was 4 1/2 - just hit 40lbs and DS was almost 7 and probably 48'ish lbs. DH was in need of his own car seats and it was hard to convince him of anything other than the cheapest backless booster from Walmart.

We ended up with a compromise, we tested both kids and found that DS was ready to sit in a booster and that DD really wasn't 100% ready. We did have 1 extra Husky at the time, but DH didn't want it installed in his car 100% of the time, he often has to take clients out to lunch/dinner etc... and didn't want that hassle of removing it. So our deal was that we would buy 2 decent BPB's that would stay in his car, easy to move if he has to take clients out, but able to fit in his trunk so if something comes up last minute he's got them in there and would be able to take the kids at any time. For any trips he was leaving home with the kids though, I would install the Husky for Julia before and uninstall when he get back. And I started to BPB 'train' her and to my surprise within a few weeks she was doing much better and now I do trust her in the bpb, but I still insist that she ride in a harnessed seat most of the time in his car.

The other part was him not understanding why he had to pay $75 (or more)/seat compared to $40 from Walmart. It helped to find the Recaro which he like the appearance of the seat and he had the color choice (although he let the kids pick their own out anyways) and then he made me promise that in 6 years if he had not been in an accident with the kids in the car seats that I would pay him back what the seats cost him. Which is just us being goofy and betting on stuff - which we do a lot! So while my DH didn't see the light and doesn't really agree with me, he will go along with me. And he does now joke about how I'm the crazy car seat Mom to his friends, I know he means it nicely, even if he doesn't understand!

Obviously your son really isn't ready for a booster... so my scenario won't really help you, but I feel your pain!

Would crash test videos sway him?

Here is a booster
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2kO8AxKbrM

please note that isn't a 5-point in the background like the video says it is actually a european shield type seat.


here is a 5-point
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMFPSStXfqE

I hope you win this battle, but if your DH doesn't give up, an Apex has a 5 point harness, and is less $ than a GN.

http://www.albeebaby.com/sa1stap65boc.html

((hugs!!))