Getting a Radian to Europe

I'm trying to figure out how to get a Radian to Europe. I would like to have someone bring it to me as checked luggage, but I have read before that you should never take a car seat as checked luggage because of the risk of damage. I was thinking, though, that maybe they could even bring it as checked luggage in the same box it ships in. Wouldn't that be as safe as the mail? (And a lot cheaper!)

I have also heard that the Radian can be sent in the mail, but I am having a hard time convincing myself that mail is handled better than checked luggage since I recently got a package that had been totaled by UPS.

Does anybody have any advice about this or tips for the best way to get a Radian to Europe??? (Bringing it with my son sitting in it isn't an option as he is already here.

As an aside, does anyone happen to have the box their Radian shipped in and know its dimensions? Would this be the best thing to send/check it in? I plan to call Sunshine Kids and ask them, but thought I would ask!

Thanks so much. Sorry if this is a bit rambling. My first post ever on this forum!

If you're over there with the US military, you can ship seats via USPS to your APO/FPO address. Shipping UPS or FedEx is extremely expensive.

If you're not over there with the US military, it's not legal to use a US seat. However, there are some very nice ECE-approved seats that would probably work very well for you. Maybe you could tell us more about your situation?

Hi, thanks for your reply. Sorry for not including more details. I was trying to be brief.

But here goes.

I'm not with the US military. I know it would be expensive to mail it. I'm just trying to figure out the best solution. That's one of the reasons I would love to check it, but don't want to do so if it would render it unsafe.

Other details:

My son just outgrew his infant seat. He's 5 months old and outgrew it by height. He's over 72 cm (28.5 inches) tall.

We don't own a car so we only need a car seat for special circumstances. We use one mostly at my mother-in-law's. We are planning to buy her a dedicated European RFing car seat. [See country details in post below.]

But we need our own car seat in some other situations too. For example, we will be in England for two weeks with a rental car in June. So I thought someone could bring us a Radian from the US that we could use there and then we could keep it with us. (We live in yet another country.)

We need a seat that is approved for use in aircraft for flying back to the US in August so I thought we could also use the Radian for that since the only European seat that I could find that would be able to be used for this is the Britax King Plus, which is foward-facing only.

I thought about buying Britax King Plus, but don't want to forward-face my 6 month old in England. I also thought about buying a Recaro Polaric in England and then taking it to my mother-in-law later, but it seems like a huge seat and the thought of trekking with it through three countries is not appealing. Plus it provides no solution for the impending aircraft problem.

So that's when I came up with the idea of importing a Radian. I was told it ships folded and is also one of the best seats to travel with so for us it seemed like the best option. I know it isn't technically legal to use here, but as I said we don't own a car so I'm not too worried about that. But perhaps I should be?

If anybody made it all the way through that long explanation any and all advice would be appreciated. Thanks!

Nobody has any other thoughts on this whole mess of a car seat situation?

No thoughts on shipping vs. checking a car seat?

No thoughts on checking it in its own box?

No thoughts on traveling with a Radian around Europe?

Nothing?

I thought this was going to be the forum with all the answers! Oh well. I'm learning a lot from everybody else's posts!

I think the lack of responses stems from our concern that you would be going to all the trouble to import and illegally use a seat when there *should* be legal options closer to you. I don't feel comfortable checking carseats except maybe gate checking, but in the case of the Radian I think I could be ok with it assuming it was packed well. I would personally not check it in the same box it came in as there is no padding, etc from what I remember, just a cardboard box, so I would worry about the automated sorting system (which can include chutes, drops, luggage jams, etc) damaging the seat with just a layer of cardboard for protection. The Radian can sometimes be a pain to install so as much as it is a travel seat it has incompatibility issues with some vehicles and I would worry about getting your rental car just to realize that you can't use the seat. That all being said, I would suggest that you reconsider getting a EU seat.

I will have a look around and post back with whatever I can find... It might help to know which country you/MIL live in.

I've got some information for you. You should not be scared about sending a seat via mail to Europe as long as it's properly packaged. I send tons of Swedish rear facing seats all over the world and so far zero damages. Some seats are tougher to package than others, like IziKid X1 which required double box and special care of foot prop, but I usually include the original plastic wrap from manufacturers and then wrap seat in three layers of bubble wrap. In some cases I also custom cut the box. A box with less empty space tends to hold up better. I then surround the box with way too much packing tape) Some boxes get a bit beaten up but it doesn't matter since seat is still so well protected.

I guess a seat could still get damaged if hit by a truck. Seats I ship have made it to far away places such as New Zealand, Australia, US, China and of course also all over EUrope without issues.

About car seats as checked luggage. I've done lots of trips with my young kids and always brought the seats and checked them as lugggage. I use special padded car seat bags which are padded additionally with diapers and clothing. 50+ flights and so far no issues (knock on woood....)

In case you want to transport your Radian as checked luggage you could keep it in the original box and pack it as recommended above. Before you bring it to the airport, carefully check dimensions of the box so you don't get hit by some huge fee.

I really don't know which alternative is better. To me both alternatives would be fine as long as you pack the seat well. FYI, when seats are delivered to stores there is no bubble wrap or anything else included (at least here). It's just the seat in a thin cardboard box.

Nothing wrong with a Radian, it will be illegal to use one in Europe but you will honestly not get stopped by anyone.

There are plenty of other alternatives available to you. You have access to all the great rear facing high weight Swedish seats which will allow you to keep your son rear facing for a very long time. The Swedish seats allow rear facing to 55 lbs (25 kg) and are very easy to install. They are also certified for Europe, ECE R44.

Most common seats are Britax Two-Way, Britax Hi-Way, Britax Multi Tech, Maxi Cosi Mobi, Brio Zento, and IziKid. All these seats allow rf to 55 lbs except IziKid which only does 40 lbs. This seat is especially in demand in Ireland and UK.

If you don't have your own car, Britax Hi-Way or Two-Way would be a great choice.

Hi-Way: Rear facing only to 55 lbs. A light seat which takes teh least amount of room of all Swedish seat, is relatively lightweight,a nd comfortable. It's also the easiest seat to isntall. I've had ours installed in 10-15 cars, taxis, limos, vans, and freinds cars wtihout issues. Seat shell is like most other Swedish seats 57 cm (22.5 inches) which ulsually allows rear facing to about 4 years of age or a little longer. My son made it to 4 despite being tall.

Two-Way: Unique combination seat popular with foreigners, especially Americans. Allows rear facing to 55 lbs and forward facing with seat belt to 55 lbs (as a high back booster). it's also the only European seat which allows forward facing to 55 lbs with harness. Seat shell is 60 cm. (24 inches) which usually means rear facing until age 4-5. Seat does not have a foot prop and is easy to install. It fits fine ins amller cars such as Peugeot 208.

Those with larger kids usually choose Multi Tech since it has the highest seat shell at 62 cm (24.5 inches) but is expandable to 68 cm. The high seat shell means rear facing to age 5-6 if desired. This seat can also be used forward facing as a high back booster until 55 lbs or with harness to 40 lbs.

Not sure about bringing them on a plane, I would advice not doing so. Regarding safety on a plane, all data shows it's almost unheard of for a child to be injured in air by turbulence etc. You will also run into problems depending on which airline you use. In US you must use an approved FAA seat which will most likely not work with many other airlines internationally. Especially not in Europe. Sadly, the rules for parents wanting to bring seats on planes are very confusing (and unclear) and it's difficult to know what applies when flying internationally (or even domestically)

I think it's "fine" to use a sat illegally if it offers a large safety difference. But there are other (easier) choices than importing a seat from US which are equally safe.

If you need more info about the Swedish rear facing/combo seats, please ask here, send me a PM, or email me at ad@adventuredad.com I can provide photos of kids sitting in different seats if needed.

InternationalMama said:

Nobody has any other thoughts on this whole mess of a car seat situation?
.........
I thought this was going to be the forum with all the answers!

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Actually, I hadn't seen your query... probably others haven't either. :shrug-shoulders:
Canadian/International forum isn't a heavily frequented location. I don't believe anyone has experienced your particular situation to be able to make reasonable suggestions. So I really hope you're not being as rude as it seems when you say "All the answers".

What is your current country that you're in? Perhaps there's something online or in a nearby country that would work for you?

InternationalMama said:

No thoughts on shipping vs. checking a car seat?

No thoughts on checking it in its own box?

No thoughts on traveling with a Radian around Europe?

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I have a radian box buried out in my shed, but sorry, I'm not about to go dig it out to go measure it in the dark & chilly morning. Sorry. If you can wait a week when the shed is emptied for movers, I"ll try to remember to measure it.
A rough estimate -- 23lbs. fairly tall. About 30 inches & 8-9 inches deep. 18-19 inches wide.

What you can do is go to SKJP Radian80 site & email them for specifics.

I UPS shipped a floor model Air Conditioner from Germany to England. Cost to England -- 25 euros
Cost FROM England 65 pounds

Yes, I queried about the difference -- it's due to taxes and all sorts of mumbo jumbo rationale. You could go online to the UPS.com site to direct a specific query.

If you have someone flying over, Stuffing the box with clothes/pillows/blankets & taping the sides for reinforcement would likely be sufficient. It's a rectangular shape. I don't recommend it, but then again, I don't recommend shipping over from the US a seat to use in the UK & Europe by someone who isn't covered under US SOFA agreements.

I haven't a clue how the Radian will fit in European rental cars. I'll let you know after 2 Apr when I've tried it with ours. The only thing I"m wondering about is the whole non-locking seatbelts. Have my clip, will travel.

I looked at the First Class plus. Faces rf & ff. Seems very nice to me. Sure a heck of a lot less trouble than going all the way to the US. You also have Sweden you could order & use legally too. :thumbsup:

hth although I'm not sure how. :shrug-shoulders:

Well there you go then. I am very confused by European carseats and all I turned up so far was the Concord Ultimax, and I am not sure if it would be suitable for flying or not.
http://www.boohoobaby.co.uk/prod_show.asp?id=182
http://www.car-seat.org/archive/index.php/t-29807.html

The airline regulations for EU are apparently in the process of changing and becoming a bit more standard but so far this has not been implemented across the board, so rules will vary greatly by airline. Condor has some very well-laid out but limiting rules, for example (and even provide a list of seats which would be suitable): http://www5.condor.com/tcf-us/vor_d...tion_for_child_restraint_systems_on_airplanes
The German office of Aviation seems to have laid out the rules well at this point: (translated from German using babelfish)

In principle suitable the following child seats are:


* A.) KRS, which of the authority of an European Union member state, which is FAA or transport Canada (on the basis of a national technical standard) for the exclusive use in aircraft certified and accordingly characterized.
* b.) KRS, which are certified in accordance with the UN-standard ECE R 44, -03 or a newer version for the use in motor vehicles, or
* C.) KRS, which are certified in accordance with the Canadian CMVSS 213/213.1 for the use in motor vehicles and aircraft, or
* D.) KRS, which were manufactured in accordance with the US-American standard FMVSS No. 213 for the use in motor vehicles and aircraft certified and on or after 26 February 1985 in accordance with this standard. To US-certified KRS, which were manufactured after this date, must be provided with the following red label with a sticker:
o 1) “THIS CHILD RESTRAINT SYSTEM CONFORMS TON UNIVERSE APPLICABLE FEDERAL ENGINE VEHICLE SAFETY STANDARD” and
o 2) “THIS RESTRAINT IS CERTIFIED FOR USE IN ENGINE OF VEHICLES AND AIRCRAFT”.


In motor vehicles certified systems, which according to equivalent standards as in paragraph the (A) until (D) manufactured and examined are, must by a qualification seal be marked, on which the name of the accordingly enabled qualification place and a specific identification number referred to the respective qualification project are specified.

Main criterion for the seats is that these have a permission for the attachment with a belt of point of two in motor vehicles and due to its for the attachment with the normal passenger lap belt on the aircraft passenger seat in principle suitable are.

The aircraft passengers should inquire however in any case with the reservation with the aviation enterprise, which possibilities for the transport of infants in a child support system to exist and which child support systems in the airplanes of the enterprise to be used be able.

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SO the theory is nice but the details are not as easy to follow.

As AD says, air travel is very safe and while using a carseat is safer if you have no other option... well, I don't know. At 5 months old I would personally really want a carseat Not necessarily rear facing on the plane, but definitely something aside from a lap baby, whether totally unrestrained or using a loop belt (which have been shown in testing to cause injury and are banned in Canada, so I can't see them being safe elsewhere...) Different people make different decisions.

I would likely buy an inexpensive convertible which is suitable for airtravel for you (maybe someone else will help you find something suitable), and then maybe import a Swedish seat for MIL, since I guess that is EU certified and therefore legal. It would allow you to rearface as long as possible. If you end up getting your own vehicle at some point or travel in vehicles more regularly you could swap seats with MIL so you are getting the most use out of the high weight RF seat.

Yay! Thanks for the tips! I somehow envisioned that car seats ship in boxes with special molded plastic like electronics...

Okay, my MIL lives in Germany. We're thinking about getting a dedicated seat for her car now. I'm thinking of maybe the Wavo Fix XL Isofix, which seems to be well-liked there. The weight limit isn't as high as the Swedish seats though so we're still pondering...

We live in France. I don't really have any idea what's available here as I don't speak French. But my impression is not much. If anybody knows otherwise I'm all ears.

I'm now leaning towards getting a dedicated seat for England too because of the legal issues and having to import the seat and carry it around all over the place (if we bring it back to France). But this is starting to seem like a lot of car seats for a family who doesn't actually own a car.

And it still hasn't solved our problem of having a car seat for flying with. The only level 1 car seat I can find that is approved and available here (by the TÜV) is the Britax King Plus, which is FFing only. And honestly we travel a lot so we need some kind of seat that we can bring with us on trips and the Radian seemed like a good solution. But then I think someone else also told me it can be hard to install. And also I've been reading that it's not very light. Uggh.

Adventure Dad, do you check those big Swedish car seats? Without any over-sized luggage charges?? Do you know how much the Multi-Tech or Hi-Way weigh?

And Adventure Dad, I know that flying is very safe for everyone. But when my son was a newborn and we flew into an airport minutes after it had re-opened after a thunderstorm, when the pilot said we "all better be strapped in because this is going to be a bumpy ride" I can't tell you how happy I was to have my son's car seat there for him. I wouldn't consider flying any other way.

InternationalMama said:

We live in France. I don't really have any idea what's available here as I don't speak French. But my impression is not much. If anybody knows otherwise I'm all ears.

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The First Class Plus I mentioned was on the Britax French site.
Britax-Roemer European website in English.

http://www.which.co.uk/advice/travelling-with-children/flying-with-children/index.jsp

Car seats

For toddlers up to three years, some airlines provide booster seats and infant seat belts, while others, such as easyJet, require you to bring a car seat or a restraint device if you want your child to sit independently.

Ryanair meanwhile, will not allow you to bring a car seat on board, which means you have no choice but to have a child (up to two years) on your lap for the duration of the journey.

The suitability of car seats will depend on the type of aircraft you are travelling in. Before you book you should check that your car seat will fit between the armrests of the seat, as having a restless infant on your lap for a long flight can be no fun at all. All car seats must be forward-facing. If you are travelling with toddlers, try to get seats in the first row of the aircraft to ensure that they don’t kick the chair of the person in front.

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http://www.expats.cz/prague/showthread.php?t=186818

Below is the reply I received from EUROPEAN AVIATION SAFETY AGENCY (EASA). Not much help finding a car seat though. The ones they listed aren't sold here or they are for smaller babies.

If anyone comes across an FAA approved car seat or one that says it's approved for air travel please let me know. I really think it's so much safer do have a baby in a car seat on a plane. In severe turbulense or a rough landing a parents arms can not secure the baby. Many babies have been severerly injured or have even died.

"To answer your question directly, unfortunately there is currently no European list of car child seats (in aviation called Child Restraint Systems (CRS) or Child Restraint Devices (CRD )) approved for use in aircraft that would guarantee their acceptance across Europe on board of any EU aircraft operated by any EU air operator (not speaking about the World). There are two principle reasons for this :



1) The aviation approvals of CRS/CRD has been up to now regulated nationally.

The evaluation which car seats are suitable for use in aircraft and their possible limitations to aircraft of a particular air operator has been until now subject to (potentially different) requirements and approval processes of individual EU Members States and their National Aviation Authorities. The European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) has only recently received rulemaking competency in the field of air operations and is in process to define common EU operational requirements including the ones for CRS/CRD. It will take however time to develop such standards.



2) Compatibility with the aircraft seat

There are many different types of aircraft seats and many different types of car seats. This creates huge interoperability and compatibility problems. Even if we have a common European standard to approve CRS/CRD for use in aircraft, a particular car child seat approved to this standard may not be fully compatible with all the aircraft seats used in all aircraft.



For the above reasons the air travellers flying across Europe and the World face problems when bringing their car child seats, often unable to satisfy all the different national requirements leading to different air operators’ policies for acceptance of car child seats on board. These practical “logistical” problems are also a contributing factor to the fact that the use of CRS/CRD has not been made mandatory so far in any country in the World. EASA is working on a solution to this problem, at least for EU countries.



Until then, to raise the chances that your car seat is accepted on board in EU, it would be advisable to buy a car seat not only approved for cars (the UN STANDARDS ECE R44-03 or 44-04 is applicable in EU) but also for aircraft, at least in one EU country. In such case and depending on national requirements the seat has a label like “For use in aircraft” or similar. This label granted by a national certifying authority is recognition that such car seat meets the applicable national aviation requirements. The final check should always be prior to the flight with the airline you plan to use. Ask them about their policy for CRS/CRD and types of CRS/CRD they accept on board.



To give you at least some idea about potential candidates for a car child seat with better chances on board of aircraft please follow the below link to a German certifying authority TÜV Rheinland. This authority in co-operation with the German aviation authority approved several car seats for use in aircraft. The child seats approved by TÜV are also accepted by operators in some other EU countries:



http://www.tuvdotcom.com/pi/web/sea...traint+Syst em



Note please on the website that TÜV limits validity of the approval to certain air operators for aircraft of which it has checked and can guarantee the car seat performance and compatibility.





Do not hesitate to contact me if you need further help.



Best regards



Jan Novák

RULEMAKING DIRECTORATE

Initial Airworthiness Rulemaking Officer







EUROPEAN AVIATION SAFETY AGENCY (EASA)

Postfach 10 12 53

D-50452 Köln Germany

Visiting address: Ottoplatz 1, 50679 Köln (Deutz)

Tel.: +49 221 89990 5015
Fax: +49 221 89990 5515
Email: jan.novak.@easa.europa.eu

Web: www.easa.europa.eu"
Report abusive posts or users
11-06-08, 01:09 PM

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http://airtravel.about.com/b/2008/12/28/infant-car-seats-and-airlines.htm

Tips for using a car seat during a flight

* To be able to use your car seat you will be looking for a label that states: "This restraint is certified for use in motor vehicles and aircraft." Similar labels will be found on car seats in Canada, the U.K., etc..
* Check the width of the car seat. The FAA mentions 16 inches as the maximum width so that it will fit most airline seats.
* Some airlines offer discounted airfares for infants occupying a seat, but not all. For airlines that do offer discounted airfares for infants, discounts tend to range from 10-50% less than an adult's airfare.
* If you do not purchase a seat for your child under 2, the airline is not required to give you an empty seat. It may not always be easy to pick a flight that isn't full. However, mid-week and late morning or early afternoon flights often give you a better chance at extra empty seats on an aircraft. And you can always ask at the gate. When I see that an infant is traveling, as a gate agent I try to check the flight loads and seat chart for a row with extra empty seats.
* A CRS should be placed in a window seat, but on an aircraft with three banks of seats per row, there is the possibility of using a middle seat in the middle bank. It is basically about leaving the aisles clear.
* The FAA, as well as many of its international counterparts advise that children under 20 pounds be placed in a rear-facing CRS, and from 20 to 40 pounds use a forward-facing child restraint.

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This seems like a useful set of articles on traveling with car seats, though it is US-skewed:
http://www.deliciousbaby.com/journal/2008/feb/26/airplanes-car-seats-part-i-who-needs-car-seat-onbo/

International Carriers and Car Seats
Laws vary depending on where the airline is based (review your carrier's website for details), but many European carriers do not allow rear-facing car seats at all, and do not allow infants under 6 months old to travel in a car seat. On board, your lap infant will be given a special infant seat belt that attaches to your adult belt for takeoff and landing. Once you are airborne many carriers have bassinets or special seats (Picture of Airline Baby Bed) available for infants seated in the bulkhead rows. The seats need to be reserved in advance.

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You can only use a car seat on a plane if you can install in a car only using a lap belt. If it requires a lap and shoulder belt to install ina car - it will be unsuitable on a plane.
In the uk, The Britax Renaissance was the only seat that could be installed with a lap belt only - therefore being the only seat you could use on a plane. This is now discontinued.

Ooh, there were two more replies while I was writing my message!

Haven't had a chance to read everything yet, but I wanted to say that Morganthe I'm sorry I sounded like I was being rude. I was being totally serious, if maybe in a jokey kind of way. I was so excited when I found this website and this forum because before that I really had no idea where to get answers to my car seat questions and I've been learning so much from reading the posts here.

I guess it doesn't seem that weird to me to import a seat from the US... I know several people living here who have done it and I'm American so...

I've heard that about needing a lap belt install to use car seat on a plane before, but the weird thing is that the German organization has approved several seats (including my son's old one) for use in aircraft that need a shoulder belt to be installed in a car. They just say you can only use a lap belt for the install if installing on a plane...

Looking forward to reading the rest of the replies! Thanks!

Okay, I haven't figured out yet how to do the nice quotes that everyone does. But I guess I should clear up one thing, especially if it's helpful to someone else.

For those wondering why I would want to import a US seat when there are some very nice EU RFing seats available (some that people even import to the US!) here's the issue:

As far as I know there are no RFing seats that are approved for use in aircraft by any country in the EU that are bigger than an infant bucket seat.

So, since my son is already in Europe and just outgrew his bucket I won't be able to fly with him back to the US (in his own seat) this summer unless I either a) buy him a FFing car seat that is approved for use in aircraft like the Britax King Plus, which I wouldn't use once we got there (or probably ever) since he will only be 10 months old and I don't want to use an FF seat, so I would be spending 200 Euros just for the flight over or b) buy him an American RFing seat and get someone to bring or send it over.

I picked the Radian as the seat to send because it folds and I thought it would be the most likely to be able to be checked or sent. (Based on what you've all said I'm excited that it sounds like it really can be.) Thus I arrived at my initial question: Anybody have any experience with that? (Thanks for all the advice! I guess I didn't word my initial posts so well...)

I guess the legal issue didn't seem like a big concern for me since we would be using it so rarely and probably mostly in rental cars. But I have reconsidered this since I posted and am now thinking we'll at least get a dedicated seat for my MIL. And now maybe also a dedicated seat for trips to England. But that still leaves me with the problem of having a seat to fly back to the US with. So I'm still thinking we'll probably import a Radian for that...

And while I agree that it is all a big mess with car seat regulations and aircraft, especially in the EU, there are some US airlines that will allow seats that are approved for use in aircraft by equivalents of the FAA in other countries like the TÜV or the British one (I think it's the CAA?). So last time we flew to the US we made sure all our flights were operated by one of those (in that case Continental) and had no problems using our Maxi Cosi Citi SPS which is approved by TÜV. (I'm just throwing in all these extra details in case they help someone else! ) I think we will try to do the same on our next trip.

So that's the long story of how I got to deciding that importing a car seat from the US was the only way to go. I feel like it still will be necessary even if we buy several European RFing seats for use in cars. I know flying with a seat is partially personal preference, but I am all for it! I would go on, but maybe that's for another thread.

I imported a Britax Regent from the USA a mid southern state as far as I can recall)to Denmark. Shipping USPS International Express was 157½ USD at the time That was 1½ years ago.
So I think that with the Radian being a heavy seat you´ll be looking at app 200 USD + VAT, which you must pay the customs department in the country you´re in. VAT (Value Added Taxes) is 25% of the retail price. Then comes a small fee for the paperwork.

I paid 217 USD on Ebay for a new in box Regent. Shipping was 157½ USD. VAT was 625 DKK excl. the fee for paperwork(120-130 USD I guess)(I haven´t caculated it). I think the fee for paperwork was 3% of the 217 usd. It was something like that.

Lena

Adventure Dad, do you check those big Swedish car seats? Without any over-sized luggage charges?? Do you know how much the Multi-Tech or Hi-Way weigh?

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Yes I always check them and it's not a problem. I've so far brought them on every flight to make sure my kids are protected in the car. Britax Hi-Way weights about 6 kg (13 lbs), Two-Way 8 kg (17.5 lbs), and Multi Tech 11 kg (24 lbs).

The reason why so few in Europe, and everywhere else, are using car seats is actually about safety. They know it's ultra safe to fly with a child, it's almost unheard of having a child injured on a plane. The Swedes for example, are anal about car eat safety. Started rear facing in 1965 and many rear face until age 4. No one uses a car seat on the plane because they have been taught the risks for a child are insignificant.

And now maybe also a dedicated seat for trips to England.

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Maybe I'm misunderstanding but there are no special seats required in UK. It's ECE R44 like the rest of Europe.

InternationalMama said:

Nobody has any other thoughts on this whole mess of a car seat situation?

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Sorry. My kids were sick yesterday. It looks like you got lots of good responses from other people, though.

I bought a Maxi Cosi Priori off ebay from a seller that was willing to ship worldwide, it cost me $100 usd to get it shipped to New Zealand, it shipped in its original box with clear plastic over the seat, completely unharmed, it took 12 days to arrive (not as quick as my swedish seat). It also wasn't stopped by customs so I didn't have to pay duty on it I say if you want one, buy one, get it shipped

Thanks for the extra tips. It's really helpful to hear from people who have shipped seats. I hadn't even thought about VAT...

Adventure Dad, the reason for buying a seat for England is that I just don't want to have to lug a seat all over Europe on the train. Not a legal issue. The Radian just seems more feasible because it folds and comes with a carry strap. But we'll see.

As far as flying and car seats. Let's see. I'll bite, but I'll keep it brief.

Safety. If anyone's life has ever been saved on an airplane because they were wearing a seatbelt I want my child to be wearing one too. It just makes me uncomfortable to think that my child is not as safe as I am on a flight. So I guess you could file this under point #2 "comfort" if safety isn't an issue for you.

Comfort. Having a ticket for my son has resulted in significantly better seating arrangements more than once for my family than we would have had otherwise. Very worth it on a long haul flight, in my opinion.

Luggage issues: Did you say you've flown with car seats 50+ times? And they've always arrived at your destination at the same time you did? You must fly through different airports than I do! When you fly to the US (maybe not so much of an issue in other countries) you often have no other options than to drive to your final destination. On my last trip we landed at 3AM local time. I can't imagine what we would have done if our car seat handed landed with us. I don't like what ifs when traveling. So I guess you can file that under comfort too.

Those are my big reasons. But I can see both sides. To each their own.

Adventure Dad, the reason for buying a seat for England is that I just don't want to have to lug a seat all over Europe on the train. Not a legal issue. The Radian just seems more feasible because it folds and comes with a carry strap. But we'll see.

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Understand, just wasn't sure what you meant.

Safety. If anyone's life has ever been saved on an airplane because they were wearing a seatbelt I want my child to be wearing one too. It just makes me uncomfortable to think that my child is not as safe as I am on a flight. So I guess you could file this under point #2 "comfort" if safety isn't an issue for you.

Comfort. Having a ticket for my son has resulted in significantly better seating arrangements more than once for my family than we would have had otherwise. Very worth it on a long haul flight, in my opinion.

Luggage issues: Did you say you've flown with car seats 50+ times? And they've always arrived at your destination at the same time you did? You must fly through different airports than I do! When you fly to the US (maybe not so much of an issue in other countries) you often have no other options than to drive to your final destination. On my last trip we landed at 3AM local time. I can't imagine what we would have done if our car seat handed landed with us. I don't like what ifs when traveling. So I guess you can file that under comfort too.

Those are my big reasons. But I can see both sides. To each their own.

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Those are all good reasons. I'm simply talking about doing primarily for safety. I'm sure you let your kids watch TV as well. 25 kids die each year by a falling television set in US alone. My point is that if we might save one life globally after 100 million flights, then it's safe to say it's not a high risk. You child is at higher risk doing anything else. We should take precautions where needed, where our kids face danger. Like traffic for example. Or drowning

I did 50+ times with my kids the fist 3.5 years and got my seats every single time. That includes many transatlantic flights with a stop in Amsterdam, Frankfurt, NYC, Madrid, etc. But I agree with you, that's a good reason to bring the seat on board. There are many good reasons to bring a seat on board, but doing it purely for safety reasons just isn't rational.

Have a nice weekend!