Would you harness w/o tether FF?

NannyMom · Sep 6, 2008

I've read here that tethering is safest, espcially for FF. But I think the tether is also only supposed to go to 40/48 pounds. Here's my situation....

This winter MomBoss will be having a new baby. RIght now I have a GN and TB outboard 2nd row sienna. My plan was to put the TB passenger's side 3rd row (stalk makes it difficult to secure a harnessed seat), and GN driver's side 3rd row. I thought that was a great seat arrangement until I realized there's not tether on driver's side 3rd row.

How unsafe is it to put a 46 pound 5 year old in a harnessed seat w/o a tether? I do have another seating option in mind if it is really unsafe.

Patriot201 · Sep 6, 2008

Since you have a Toyota, you need to follow the guidelines on the seat regarding tether weight limit. Toyota defers to the manufacturer. I have a Nautilus, but haven't paid attention to the tether weight guidelines since the kiddo who rides in mine is not even close to 40 pounds yet.

What or who is in your second row? Your DD and??? Are there tether anchors there?
Id your plan to have your DD and the new baby in the second row and then the TB and GN in the third row?

Misty-Bug · Sep 6, 2008

where are your anchors?

Why not leave the GN where it is? Put the baby in the other spot and maybe your DD in the back? Not sure what to suggest? Taking it to the manufacture and getting one installed?

Misty-Bug · Sep 6, 2008

oh and yes I would use it because up in Canada, in BC, it is law. But I would use it no matter what. Just that much more secure if you ask me :twocents:

Chameleon · Sep 6, 2008

I just can't see how you are having a difficult time with that passenger outboard 3rd row position. I've had numerous seats there with no problems what so ever. Just recline the seat and install.

thepeach80 · Sep 6, 2008

We have this problem too, I need more anchors. It was reccomended to me to look into the heavy duty anchors from ezon pro, I still need to do that. I would not want a harnessed seat untethered, especially one as heavy as the GN, I don't know. I personally don't plan on adhering to my tether anchor listed weights, I see them as safer no matter what.

NannyMom · Sep 6, 2008

Regardless of my seating choices, I guess I'm wondering, whould you FF w/o tether. I've heard the "it's safer". And that's what I've always gone by. If your tether has a 40/48 pound limit, why would you tether a 50 pound child? Do most people on here NOT tether over the limit? If the child is over the weight limit, would the tether fly off the anchor and injure someone? Is that a risk at all? How is it better to be tethered?

Patriot201 · Sep 6, 2008

NannyMom said:
Regardless of my seating choices, I guess I'm wondering, whould you FF w/o tether. I've heard the "it's safer". And that's what I've always gone by. If your tether has a 40/48 pound limit, why would you tether a 50 pound child? Do most people on here NOT tether over the limit? If the child is over the weight limit, would the tether fly off the anchor and injure someone? Is that a risk at all? How is it better to be tethered?

Personally, I have made the choice to tether over the limit of the anchor. That is my own personal choice.

In your vehicle, however, that is somewhat irrelevant since your vehicle defers to the carseat manufacturer. Most carseat manufacturers give a limit on the lower anchors, but not the tether anchor.

LISmama810 · Sep 6, 2008

NannyMom said:
Regardless of my seating choices, I guess I'm wondering, whould you FF w/o tether. I've heard the "it's safer". And that's what I've always gone by. If your tether has a 40/48 pound limit, why would you tether a 50 pound child? Do most people on here NOT tether over the limit? If the child is over the weight limit, would the tether fly off the anchor and injure someone? Is that a risk at all? How is it better to be tethered?

I think most people here DO tether over the weight limit.

IF a tether anchor were to fail (which is relatively unlikely), it wouldn't do so until after it had done it's job.

Here's a blurb from Safe Ride News about it: http://www.saferidenews.com/html/LATCH_P8.htm

(This is for TOP TETHERS only--not lower anchors. Although lower anchors can probably withstand more force than they're rated for, I would not recommend using those beyond the limits. They serve a different purpose.)

Qarin · Sep 6, 2008

I guess I'm not sure what you're asking- are you asking if I would NOT tether if I had a tether anchor available in that seating position? I would always tether if there is an anchor available and would make the choice to use a tether anchor (but not lower LATCH anchors) past the car's LATCH limit. Are you asking iff I would rearrange seats to be able to tether the FF harnessed seats? I'd probably try. Are you asking if I would use a booster for a child instead of a harnessed seat because of a lack of tether anchor? No.

My current vehicle, a 1998 Oldsmobile Silhouette minivan has very inconvenient tether anchors- the middle row captains chairs can tether to the anchor that the rear outboard shoulder belts connect to, on the floor to the side/behind the third row seats. When in use this way, the tether straps from the seats in the middle row go diagonally across the leg space for the outboard third row seats, making those seats difficult to access or use (and the middle third row seat only has a lap belt). There are no tether anchors available for the third row seating positions. We have preferred to have the two kids' seats in the third row outboard positions, though- we remove the right middle row captains chair, cover the attachment bolts on the floor by rearranging the carpets, and then we have this big space for everyone to climb in out of the weather while the kids get buckled up, and they also each have a cupholder back there (they can't reach the between-seats cupholder on the middle row camptains chair). So I make the decision regularly to harness without tethering. I sure wish I had third row tether anchors, though.

joolsplus3 · Sep 6, 2008

Here's why you top tether even beyond the limit http://www.saferidenews.com/html/LATCH_P49.htm
And here's what the difference is between a top tethered an un tethered seat looks like... That extra movement translates to extra force on the neck and extra risk of the head hitting something in the car...

I definitely would NOT not top tether a child that size, I'd rather use the seat as a booster if I couldn't get even an expert tech to help me install it in the position I wanted it in with a top tether.

NannyMom · Sep 6, 2008

Thank you. I didn't realize the TAs limits were different than those for LATCH. I guess I'll have to go re-read my carseat manual.

the more I thought about tethers today, the more I began thinking..... If a seat is tethered and doesn't move forward in a crash, that puts alot of force on the neck (instead of the neck and body both moving because the seat has moved as well). But I guess with the older child's neck being stronger, it's not as bad.

Is this all stuff they'll teach in the CPST course next week?

joolsplus3 · Sep 6, 2008

There may be more force on the neck if it's tethered, but there's no injury evidence to suggest that's bad... striking something in a front or side crash is considerably worse in terms of injury outcome, and tethers prevent that. Australia has a pretty good safety record and has been turning babies FF at 6 months, but top tethered, for decades now. Europe has built in lockoffs that act like top tethers, same story. No one's as good as Sweden (rf to 5ish), but top tethering is a close second in safety.

NannyMom · Sep 6, 2008

Thanks to all who responded. I read the info linked, and will deffinetly make sure I tether the seats. I was planning on it anyway, I just started wondering how much of a safety issue it really was. I want all children in my vehicle safe, and will not risk their safety just for my convenience.

As for leaning the seatback to install 3rd row driver's side, I will try that even though it didn't look like it would work. I'm tempted to go try right now (I really want to), but I HATE the rain so I'll wait until that stops first

fyrfightermomma · Sep 6, 2008

I will always top tether in my own cars and cars they frequently travel in. However...I cannot prevent completely being in car that doesn't have top tether anchors such as if our car broke down and someone had to come pick us up, or in my parents car that the kids drive in maybe once every 4-5 months.

They are still RFing so it hasn't been an issue yet, but once they are FFing, then if I had no choice, I obviously would have to. However...as time goes on there tends to be less and less cars without top anchors and this issue will come up less and less.

I make sure to only get seats that top tethering is not required (but preferred) in rare cases like this.

If there is ever a choice though, my kiddos will be top tethered. No choice...then they would have to be tetherless (is that a word??)

and yep...I will top tether past the weight limits, however I don't think that will ever be an issue with my kiddos weights!

Kat_Momof3 · Sep 6, 2008

safekids (don't have the link since the last round of computer issues) feels that it's better to tether over the tether limit.... in seats that don't require moving to a heavy duty anchor.

first, because the seats are tested and pass this way

Second, because even if the tether anchor would fail and get ripped out, being tethered to begin with would still reduce head excursion at least somewhat.

Now, would I harness and NOT tether if I needed to put the seat in a seating position/car that had no tether... of course.

But, if I can tether, I do.

Jeanum · Sep 6, 2008

To clarify, it's Safe Ride News and the LATCH manual authors, not Safe Kids, who recommend to always top tether a FF harnessed seat. Jools already posted the link to Safe Ride News' detailed recommendation earlier in the thread, but here it is again for anyone who wants to bookmark it for future reference: http://www.saferidenews.com/html/LATCH_P49.htm

tiggercat · Sep 6, 2008

Since tethering is required on all FF harnessed seats in Canada, I would not install a FF harnessed carseat without using the tether. The only exceptions would be in an emergency.
I continue to use my tether anchors above the vehicle limits, because of the legal requirement. Though, I believe my Toyotas say to use the carseat manufacturer's limits.

Chameleon · Sep 6, 2008

NannyMom said:
As for leaning the seatback to install 3rd row driver's side, I will try that even though it didn't look like it would work. I'm tempted to go try right now (I really want to), but I HATE the rain so I'll wait until that stops first

It works really well, I have my Regent in that position at the moment.

NannyMom · Sep 6, 2008

Chameleon said:
I just can't see how you are having a difficult time with that passenger outboard 3rd row position. I've had numerous seats there with no problems what so ever. Just recline the seat and install.

Here are some pics of why I'm having trouble. I haven't tried any other carseats in this position, only the GN.

THis is the GN 3rd row passenger's side, with the vehicle seat upright.

THis is the GN 3rd row passenger's side with the vehicle seat reclined

THe belt stalk doesn't go upright far enough and the seatbelt always snags and gets stuck when I try to pull it tight. Is it just me? Am I doing something wrong? Is there something I'm not doing?

ETA: I think I fixed the pics now

Would you harness w/o tether FF?

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