How to convince someone NOT to buckle like this?

Here is a pic of my daughter buckled in the way my sister in law buckles her son in. She's been doing it this way for at least a year - it was this time last year when I first noticed. She says that he pushes the chest clip down and won't leave it up. I suggested using a big safety pin or something like that, placed just below where the chest clip goes, on the strap, so that he couldn't push it down, and she smiled and nodded - but I knew she wouldn't do it. We've casually mentioned it a few times, hoping to make a a point, but she just shrugs it off. He won't keep it on right, so she doesn't worry about it. And in fact, now, she just buckles it like this. She tightened the straps so that its not as loose as it would be if he just wiggled his shoulders free - so its tighter around his chest there. I say "tighter" because she never does them tight enough anyway, in my opinion. As an infant, I once lifted him directly out of his infant carrier without moving the straps at all. They didn't even go *over* the shoulders then - she had them angled out, going around, like the bend of the shoulder - as far out as you can go and still call it "shoulder" and not "arm."
This past summer, we went to FL together, and while down there, everyone rode in my van. I buckled him in, properly, a few times and watched in the rearview and he always kept it on. If we were at a light for very long, or going through a drivethrough or something - thats when he started getting restless. But just for riding, he seemed fine. He IS quite the wiggleworm - but so what!? Anyway, once when I saw her buckling him, I asked her to please do it the right way - and chickened out and stated my not wanting to be legally liable if we were in an accident and he got hurt. She sighed and said she would, but that he'd just take it off again anyway.
So - he's 3.5, no more than 30 lbs, and I doubt he's that much. He's 6 weeks younger than my DD and she's 33 lbs. Also - he uses the exact same seat (cosco ventura) and the straps are always horribly twisted - she says they won't stay flat. I've had this seat for nearly 3 yrs and have never had a problem keeping the straps flat. Every once in a while if I've had several car trips where i was in a hurry, sure, i may get a twist - but before it has time to twist again, i fix it. Her's just look like ropes. Here's the pic of how she buckles him: (thats cheese in her mouth LOL)

Any smart-sounding advice on how to explain it to her? She'll likely be very offended that I'd dare mention it - but you know I keep thinking about whats going to happen if they're in an accident. I think I'd rather deal with her being mad at me for the next 50 yrs than lose him. Though if she's mad AND won't consider changing her ways... *sigh* (which is entirely likely)
If anyone has links describing exactly what would happen to a child buckled like this, that would be great too. I could easily forward them to her and say something nice like "I just found these and immediatly thought of you and wanted you to see, so you can keep him safe!" you know, the least confrontational way is best LOL.

I dont have any real advise (as i'm not a tech and my finaces family would buckle up thier kids like that if they thought of it!) but i just wanted to say NEVER put anything thru the webbing of a seat belt.

A safety pin could hold the chestclip up but it could cause the belt to tear in an accident. It could also be forced open (or he could fiddle with it and open it) and he could get a sever puncture wound from it.

I think straps twist b/c of humidity and getting wet from whatever esle kids get on them and if they arent untwisted and held straight they stay that way. My car's seat belt was twisted and i cant not get this wreid crimp out of it. (being replaced VERY soon as i need that belt and i just dont trust it. I've tried everythig down to removing it and putting it between two large books it just stays all wierd and crimped.

I think she's best off with a new seat. some seats chest clips are harder to pull down and prepaphs the slots would be closer together and he could wiggle free so easily. A overhead shield seat (although in most situations i would never suggest this) may also be better b/c its not as easy for her to convience herself that its just as safe to buckle him in like that. i would only suggest that as a last resort (althought i am considering one for my car seat inept mother's car. After my new baby out grows its infant seat i just dont trust her to do it properly. When i was 6 months old we got in a car accident and i was sitting in a OHS seat not buckled with the bar in the air b/c she found it too much of a hassle to do 2 car seats. So she buckled up my then 3 year old brother and just sort of left me there!)


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Ashley
Lucky to be Alive.

Well, see, the problem - is that she doesn't think there is anything at all wrong with doing it like this. She's not at all interested in doing anything to fix it.
I've read in the past to put something like a safety pin through it to keep the chest thing from moving down, which is why I recommended it - but hey, she wasn't even interested in doing something that easy. I need to figure out how to get through to her that its just not safe.
As for the webbing - like I said, i have the same seat and have never had an issue with twisting. Her older child's straps were always twisted too - keeping them flat just isn't something she's interested in trying to do. They twist, she leaves them like that.

What are some seats that don't allow the chest clip to push down easily though? All that I've ever looked at move fairly easily - at least easy enough for a 2 yr old to push down - especially if they're determined.

Oh, she's just so frustrating. I just don't get it when people aren't concerned with having their kids buckled up - and it makes me even sadder when its family.

Yeah, lots of people on the internet tell you to use a safety pin on the chest clip, but actually, you WANT the chest clip to break or move down in a crash... unfortunately it's just a discipline issue to get kids to keep them up (or to get adults to care about using them properly to begin with!!!). www.djgusa.com has a number you can call to order a new harness and free chest clip for about $5 (since YOU care about keeping your straps flat, at least get them for you, they are SO much nicer than the old nylon ones, they are a nice thick polyester).
That kiddo looks like she might be too tall for the harness in that seat, though (those seats have the lowest harness slots of any combo seat available...graco and evenflo seats are several inches taller).

Now, how to tell her convincingly that the harness being like that will actually cut her daughter in half...hmmm... Try looking at this page... seriously, what is going on in that picture is just a lapbelt, since the shoulders are not being held back, so most of this info applies http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/lapbelts.aspx

i thought she looks to big too jools but i wasnt sure if it was just the belts being under her arms.

Perhaps giving her daughter some sort of soft toy to distract her would keep the chest clip up b/c she has something to do?

I dont know what to tell her execpt to keep telling her not to and to do it yourself properly whenever possible. Like i said i'm trying to train my fiance's family to use seat properly (or they wont be driving my baby anywhere. for any reason.)

I would try taking her to a tech or having a cop stop her and lecture her about the safety issues. She doesnt seem to think that you say is right but maybe a trained professional will matter more? Have you tried showing her how you where able to lift her daughter from her seat without unbuckling her? Maybe she'll see in a crash she could fly out. Or if your really daring let her buckle her in her way and then take her to an empty parking lot and do some experiments. Just be careful she doesnt actually fly from the seat (go slow and gently stomp ont he brakes) and then do the kid up right and do it again. Just be very very careful when you do it improperly b/c she could come out and get hurt really bad.

Other than that good luck. I have a few family nuts hanging in my new tree that i swear shouldn't breed for this reason alone. One had her 10 months childs belts so loose i could buckle into it and another stopped using seats at all for her youngest of 3 at 2 and a half b/c she didnt use them for her sisters so the little one whined and it just didnt seem "fair". I didnt know fairness mattered in safety.

Kelly, much luck to you, babe - all I can think of is some seriously smart assed remarkes ... the least of which being that well, um, hello, race car drivers have harnesses for a reason, right & do THEY put them under their arms @@

This one is my daughter - and yes, I just noticed when someone mentioned it on the coffee break board that her shoulders are very very close to being too tall. Its hard to see in the shadows - but the top slots are still just above her shoulders.

When I was able to lift her son from the seat without unbuckling was 3 yrs ago when he was in an infant seat.

Oh, and I hear ya on the "fairness" issue - My daughter was just complaining a few days ago because she says she wants a seat like her brothers, without straps "here and here and here and here" - LOL, I told her to get over it, and that her brother would hopefully be in a harness again soon anyway. She's given up for now.

Anyway, I haven't tried having a serious talk with her at all. And now we don't live in the same state anymore, so I don't talk to her as often at all. But I think I'll be bringing it up at Christmas. I know she won't go to a tech, because first I'd have to convince her that she NEEDS to talk to one. If I can get her to realize that what she's doing is wrong and could kill her son and that she needs to take it seriously, then I'd be able to tell her how to do it safely. She just refuses to accept that its unsafe and certainly isn't going to go talk to a tech to see what they think about it.
Whoever mentioned it being a discipline issue - Yeah! When she first told us that she does it that way because he kept taking it off, i said later to my husband, "well, try telling him no!" Mikayla (my dd) was able to unbuckle her harness. I certainly didn't just let her ride around unbuckled. I stopped the car, rebuckled her, and reminded her to stay buckled - every single time. And then finally turned the buckle around backwards and she can't get her thumbs in there to release it now. I just don't get it - I don't see car seat safety as optional, and she does. She sees it as a total non-issue.

Oh, a question I thought of - Like I said, he's 3.5. In May, when he's 4, I would bet she'll be putting him into a regular booster. Other than the fact that I'm betting he'll unbuckle himself all on his own... I'm thinking that actually even if he's barely over 30 lbs, him being in a seatbelt done properly would be safer than a harness done unproperly, right? And I HATE his seat pictured, as a booster, by the way - so if she does switch to booster, I'll strongly advise switching to a better one. The guides on it make the seat belt go to the shoulder at a funny angle. Its probably safe - but it bugged me.
OKay, I"m about to run out and actually put her in the seat properly to check the shoulder straps. I'm fairly certain she's still safe in it - but I'm thinking I"ll get a new seat next week, after payday.

papooses said:

Kelly, much luck to you, babe - all I can think of is some seriously smart assed remarkes ... the least of which being that well, um, hello, race car drivers have harnesses for a reason, right & do THEY put them under their arms @@

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ROFL!!!
Man, I just wish she would listen to my subtle hints and see my positive example of that seat (much as i dislike it) working JUST FINE. Also, if she'd asked my opinion, I would have told her to never get that seat to begin with.

Oh - and I took a pic of her buckled in properly. Upon inspection, i found a couple things. 1 - it looks like one shoulder is higher than the other. I *think* this is because on her left shoulder, I'm missing that little plastic guide that goes in there for the strap. I don't know how many times I've taken that seat apart, and I lost one of those somewhere along the way. But i think without the guide, the fabric slides down a little, making it look like that slot is much closer to her shoulder than it is - the fabric slot IS pretty low, but the actual slot is not.
2 - There's about a 1/2 inch between her shoulder and the slot. I couldn't angle the camera right, no matter how hard I tried, so in the pic, it looks slightly lower than it actually is.
3 - I'm glad I wasn't in a hurry or I would have forgotten that I loosened the straps yesterday to play around with it.
4 - Does she have a wide neck, or are these straps just made really close together? If we had a wreck in this seat, she'd have some serious belt burn on her neck there. She's stretching her neck some in the pic, but even just sitting normally, it rubs her neck.

In summary - yep, time for a new seat. We get paid Monday. I'm off to the little toy shop here that carries the full Britax line and then to TRU so I can try some of the Britax seats out. Last I checked, neither keeps the Husky in stock.

Ah, ok
I asked my dd (6)..."can you tell me what's wrong with this picture?" and she said, "My hair is messy!" I said, no, sweetie that's not you (and go find a mirror, hon, have you SEEN your hair today?!?!? eeek!), I mean, with the harness? And she said, "yeah, the straps are under her arms!!!"

You are right on the money about it being primarily a discipline issue. Putting that boy into a booster seat is not going to curb his desire to unbuckle--it just makes it easier, since he'll only have one big, fairly easy buckle to mess with. Without properly teaching him to stop, he won't stop.

My dd figured out how to unbuckle her Husky shortly after we got it, so at about 2 years 9 months old, but we taught her that it wasn't safe, and never had a problem with it. We gave her the freedom of unbuckling once we were at out destination, and sort of made a big deal of it, so that may have helped. We also taught her how to buckle herself up (easy with a seat with non-twisty straps, but a nightmare on a seat with twisty straps--dd trying to buckle herself into the Airway when we had it was awful, the straps would be so twisted) and that gave her even more independence. We just made sure to pull the adjuster strap and tighten the straps down once she got it all buckled.

Kellyr2 said:

This one is my daughter - and yes, I just noticed when someone mentioned it on the coffee break board that her shoulders are very very close to being too tall. Its hard to see in the shadows - but the top slots are still just above her shoulders.

When I was able to lift her son from the seat without unbuckling was 3 yrs ago when he was in an infant seat.

Oh, and I hear ya on the "fairness" issue - My daughter was just complaining a few days ago because she says she wants a seat like her brothers, without straps "here and here and here and here" - LOL, I told her to get over it, and that her brother would hopefully be in a harness again soon anyway. She's given up for now.

Anyway, I haven't tried having a serious talk with her at all. And now we don't live in the same state anymore, so I don't talk to her as often at all. But I think I'll be bringing it up at Christmas. I know she won't go to a tech, because first I'd have to convince her that she NEEDS to talk to one. If I can get her to realize that what she's doing is wrong and could kill her son and that she needs to take it seriously, then I'd be able to tell her how to do it safely. She just refuses to accept that its unsafe and certainly isn't going to go talk to a tech to see what they think about it.
Whoever mentioned it being a discipline issue - Yeah! When she first told us that she does it that way because he kept taking it off, i said later to my husband, "well, try telling him no!" Mikayla (my dd) was able to unbuckle her harness. I certainly didn't just let her ride around unbuckled. I stopped the car, rebuckled her, and reminded her to stay buckled - every single time. And then finally turned the buckle around backwards and she can't get her thumbs in there to release it now. I just don't get it - I don't see car seat safety as optional, and she does. She sees it as a total non-issue.

Oh, a question I thought of - Like I said, he's 3.5. In May, when he's 4, I would bet she'll be putting him into a regular booster. Other than the fact that I'm betting he'll unbuckle himself all on his own... I'm thinking that actually even if he's barely over 30 lbs, him being in a seatbelt done properly would be safer than a harness done unproperly, right? And I HATE his seat pictured, as a booster, by the way - so if she does switch to booster, I'll strongly advise switching to a better one. The guides on it make the seat belt go to the shoulder at a funny angle. Its probably safe - but it bugged me.
OKay, I"m about to run out and actually put her in the seat properly to check the shoulder straps. I'm fairly certain she's still safe in it - but I'm thinking I"ll get a new seat next week, after payday.

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Sorry i missed the infant seat part of that!

I'm planning on giving my SIL (who will be 4 next week) a graco turbo booster as a Christmas present b/c her mother refuses to use her seat properly. And it like the one pictured turns to a booster (its not the same seat thought) but as a booster her seat sucks and has no side impact protection. My SIL is capable of buckling and unbuckling her harness seat but as far as i know she never undid it when she wasnt supposed to (she's spoiled rotten but a very disciplined child no the less)

The little girl i'm talking about went from a over head shield seat to nothing. At less than 40 pounds they decided if the oldest kid could go without a booster then why not let them all do it regardless there were several tears between the oldest and the youngest. Technically the oldest should have still been in a booster (and by size i think she still could be) but she went to kindergarten and no one else rode in a booster. I'm telling you this families car seat habits are going to drive me to drinking. Out of 10 children all convertible car seat age my SIL is the only one without an OHS seat! And she would have one if the store my stepMIL bought it at carried the OHS eddie bauer seat. She had to have the eddie bauer seat, thats all she cared about was the name no matter if it was a good/bad seat just who made it and what ppl will think!

We had that seat ... when I got the Husky & Wizard I gave it to my co-worker since they had a T-shield ... their daughter is 4 & looks like she sits about the same in it (shoulders almost even with the top slots, straps tight on her neck); they're just going to use it as a booster very soon =/

okay - i'm new at this and very far from off from needing a seat for a bigger baby but I've noticed people saying things like "soon to be harnessed again" and so forth. Is there a period where a child doesn't fit in a harness or is it just waiting to get the next seat up? Just want to be prepared for when I get to that point.

Sorry for sounding naive but what does OHS stand for?

Unregistered said:

okay - i'm new at this and very far from off from needing a seat for a bigger baby but I've noticed people saying things like "soon to be harnessed again" and so forth. Is there a period where a child doesn't fit in a harness or is it just waiting to get the next seat up? Just want to be prepared for when I get to that point.

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My daughter is soon-to-be-harnessed again because we had a Britax Husky (harnesses to 80 pounds, the only one on the market that does), but it needs to be top-tethered past 50 pounds, and my vehicle does not have tether anchors. We sold the Husky and got a belt positioning booster (she's 4 years, 4 months old, 45 inches and 43 pounds--roughly the size of an average 6 year old), but we aren't happy with that and will be going back to a harnessed seat again soon.

I hope that answered your question!

Unregistered said:

Sorry for sounding naive but what does OHS stand for?

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Overhead shield.

http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/fivepointshield.aspx

OHS is an overhead shield.

Julie

ETA: But I see Jenny already explained.

I was under the impression OHS's were bad. Is this wrong?

Overhead shields are not recommended, especially for infants.

Julie

Here's a good page on that http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/fivepointshield.aspx