Buying new car for 5 in carseats - Sienna?

Hi. I'm currently expecting my fifth child and we are looking to buy a new car to replace our 2000 MPV which won't safely hold 5 carseats. I'll have:

HBTB: 9yo
HBTB: 7yo
FFMA: 5yo
FFMA: 2yo
Snugride: baby

I can't remember their weights, but the older three are all very tall and appropriately heavy for their ages. 9yo fits most vehicles properly w/o booster but I like the EPS foam and knowing that shoulder strap will stay in place.

Money is our most limiting factor. We think we can possibly afford a new <b>low-end</b> 2005 Sienna 8-passenger, but it will really be a financial strain for us. To get the side curtain airbags puts it way out of our price range. To get the Vehicle Stability Control is even more unreachable.

So, without the safety upgrades, is the Sienna still the safest option for us?

I saw Ulrike's diagram of latch locations. Do all 6 rear seats have separate top tether anchors?

How would you arrange the seating? I just learned from searching this board that it won't work to put 3 in the rear, 2 in the middle, and remove one seat like I had hoped. I'm wondering if I can take the back off the TB for my oldest and put her in the center/middle seat and fold that one down for rear access. That would put the least protected body in the most protected seat, right? But can you fold just the center seat down? I hate the idea of putting a noback booster without EPS foam in an outboard spot without the airbags, so otherwise we'd just be moving a HBTB every time we load up.

It really upset me when I learned the side airbags are an upgrade. It upsets me even more that you can only get them when you buy a ton of other unnecessary options in a package. Safety shouldn't be just for the wealthy elite.


Mary

Well, you can consider that since the side airbags etc. are optional on the Sienna, all the crash testing was done without them so it's still a very safe vehicle.

There are only 5 tether anchors for the rear seats. There is not one in the 3rd row in the driver's side outboard spot. All other rear seats have both lower LATCH and tether anchors.

Unfortunately the center 2nd row seat does not tumble for 3rd row access. You can move it quite far forward, fold it into an "armrest" or remove it completely, but it does not flip like the outboard seats. I don't think you'd be able to easily squeeze past it even if it did.

As far as how to arrange, I've had my kids several different ways, but personally when #4 arrives in April, I will have both my boys in the 3rd row (7.5 and in a SR/C & 5 in a MA), and in the second row, a Baby Trend Latch loc in the middle for the baby and DD (2 in a RA) behind the driver. I will probably have one of my boys in the passenger side 2nd row in a booster from time to time for quicker school pick-up and drop-off or if the baby's fussy or whatever. I do have the side curtain airbags, but I don't think I'd personally be overly concerned about their sitting there even without them.

Honda does offer side curtains, VSC etc. standard on the Odyssey. Have you looked at it? The 8th seat is pretty teeny, but perhaps your 9 yr. old would fit there.

Thanks! I wasn't sure whether crash tests included the side-curtain airbags or not. I can only find info on frontal-offset crash tests so if there is another link I should check out, I'd appreciate it. I meant to say that in my post, but accidently clicked "submit" instead of "prieview". I intended to delete that last, whiney paragraph too. Sorry about that.

The Honda does come standard with the airbags, but not with the 8th seat. It gets quite expensive once you get up to that class and package, and the Sienna ends up being cheaper. I'm not sure if it would fit 3 seats across too.

How does this arrangement sound?
Rear bench: FFMA latch & anchor/empty seat/HBTB
Center bench: HBTB/ Snugride w/latch/FFMA latch & anchor

And the snugride spot will eventually switch to a RFMA.

I wonder if the back seat kids could easily just climb over the snugride base if it was outboard before I snap the seat in.

Thanks for saying it wouldn't overly concern you. I think I was getting a little too distracted by not being able to afford the safest vehicle possible instead of focussing on what I can do.

The Honda and Sienna are my only choices for 8 passengers, right? I believe they'd be safer than a full-size van or SUV.

Well, as for not being overly concerned;-)...we used to have a little Saturn SL2 and I had to put my boys outboard in that. I just had to tell myself that they were safely restrained in the vehicle we could afford (it was our only car) at the time and let it be. I could easily drive myself nuts about such things, but thankfully, I have an overly practical side that wins out a lot;-)

To see the side impact etc. govt crash test ratings go to http://www.safercar.gov/ I can't get a direct link, but just select van, then 2005 and Toyota Sienna from the little menu. It got a 5 star side impact rating.

I think your arrangement sounds fine. It may just take some playing around too to figure out what works best. I've had my kids in several different configurations and they've all had pros and cons.

The Chevy Venture also has an 8 passenger option, but crash tests aren't so great. Personally, I think a minivan is the safest option if you can get everyone safely restrained and it's practical for your family's needs.

GL

Thank you. This link is very encouraging. Do you know a reason why a 2004 Sienna would rank a bit higher than the 2005? I'm guessing it is just chance and the way the simulated crashes turned out.

Also, Is it true that the 8 passenger has only been an option on 2004 & 2005 Siennas and 2005 Hondas (so a used model isn't possible)?

I agree. The Chevy is just not an option with my paranoia level. I've been slammed into the side by a huge car running a red light before, and I think those things change a person.

Thanks so much for your help.

Mary

I like your arrangement too. I have a 7 seater 2004 Sienna. I had 5 restrained children in there today, and I really don't love the arrangement I had-it worked, but not optimal. I have a snugride in one captain chair and a FFing wizard in the other. In the third row I have a FFing WZ in with latch-but the way the anchors are spaced, I really need to switch it to a seat belt install when I want three across the back row. I had a backless TB and a cosco backless booster in the third row as well. Not a fun task to get everyone buckled if I had to do it on a regular basis. I can get three harnessed seats in with belts in the third row, but the third row center you have to be careful not to have a seat on the 60/40 split.

"I can get three harnessed seats in with belts in the third row, but the third row center you have to be careful not to have a seat on the 60/40 split."

Wouldn't that leave one seat without a top tether anchor? Is there a seat that would work well with?

With 5 children, I do need to have an arrangement where some can buckle themselves. I do need to consider driver sanity in my case, and when it is 100º+ outside, I can't be climbing into the back and jumping on seats to reach the buckles. I can check that they are all tight and buckle the babies, but that's about it.

Mary

The driver side outboard does not have a tether anchor so I use a backless TB in that spot. I have 3 girls, but sometimes have two of my sisters children with me. When I have put three harnessed seats in the back I put the smallest/lightest child in the untethered FFing seat. I don't do it often-opting for two boosters with the wizard in the third row. Since you will have 5 kids I would go with the 8 seater, and but the HBTBs exactly where you have them in your scenario-although I would put the snugride outboard.


Assuming your 9 year old can completly take care of his or her own buckle, I would put him/her in the third row. I would also put the 5 you in the MA in the third row, since at 5 that child should need the least amount of help with the harness. I would put the HBTB in the second row on a tumble foward seat so that the two in back have access to the third row. Iw ould put the FFIng MA in the second row center and the snugride outboard. THe RFIng child is most protected, so I would put that seat in the slightly less protected position in the car. THe FFIng child is less protected, and should go in the center.

For families that are large, you might consider a full size van that holds 15 people. I have one that we took the back seat out of so it "only" is a 11 passenger van, for cargo space. I love it, as there is a whole seat for each of my three girls and I have day care kids in with them. Sure saves headaches, especially when someone wants to bring a friend or two home.
Olive Oyl

ROLLOVER

Such vans have the highest rollover risk, puting it's passengers at greater risk of serious/fatal injury compared to minivans, etc. ... especially if they're using lap-only belts

• http://www.nhtsa.gov/cars/problems/studies/15PassVans/15PassCustomerAdvisory.htm

15-PASSENGER VANS: NHTSA ISSUES SAFETY ADVISORY
In 2003, there were several tragic 15-passenger van rollover crashes involving religious groups on trips. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), the arm of the U.S. Department of Transportation responsible for keeping people safe on America’s roadways, has reissued a cautionary warning specifically to alert summertime users of 15-passenger vans. Under certain conditions, these vans exhibit a higher likelihood of rollover.

The safety agency previously issued these warnings in 2001 and 2002. The earlier warnings appear to be working as the number of fatalities, which peaked in 1999, has steadily declined in recent years. Fatalities in crashes involving 15-passenger vans have dropped 16 percent through 2002, the most recent year for which data is available.

NHTSA is reissuing its warning again this year to notify organizations – particularly religious and youth groups (or insert your group) who may use these vans on trips – that the chance of rollover increases dramatically as the number of occupants increases. The agency’s new research has shown that 15-passenger vans have a rollover risk that increases dramatically as the number of occupants increases to full capacity. In fact, 15-passenger vans with a full passenger load have a rollover rate in single vehicle crashes that is five times greater than a vehicle containing only a driver.

The analysis also shows that the risk of rollover increases significantly at speeds over 50 miles per hour and on curved roads.

"It is vitally important that users of 15-passenger vans be aware of these risks," Dr. Jeffrey Runge, NHTSA’s Administrator, said. "Thankfully, there are safety precautions that can be taken to significantly reduce the likelihood of a rollover and injury."

These precautions include:

Require all occupants to use their seat belts or the appropriate child restraint. Nearly 80% of those who have died nationwide in 15-passenger vans were not buckled up. Wearing seat belts dramatically increases the chances of survival during a rollover crash.
If possible, seat passengers and place any cargo forward of the rear axle and avoid placing any loads on the roof. By doing so, you’ll lower the vehicle’s center of gravity and lower the chance of rollover.
If your organization owns 15-passenger vans, check that the van’s tires are properly inflated and the tread is not worn down at least once per month. Excessively worn or improperly inflated tires can lead to a loss-of-control situation and a rollover.
Use caution on both interstates and rural roads to avoid running off the road. If your van’s wheels should drift off the roadway, gradually slow down and steer back onto the road when safe to do so. Most 15-passenger van rollovers occur at high speeds as a result of a sudden steering maneuver such as an overcorrection.
As a driver, ensure you are well rested and alert. Always maintain a safe speed for weather and road conditions. The agency recommends that only trained and experienced drivers should operate 15-passenger vans.

For more information, including copies of safety flyers and vehicle hangtags and the new NHTSA analysis, please visit the agency’s web site at: www.safercar.gov. Hangtags can be ordered at no cost by directly contacting NHTSA’s Auto Safety Hotline at 888-327-4236.

I read the info about roll over on 15 psg vans and I have two things to comment about. One is I believe most roll overs occur when someone who doesn't drive a 15 psg van every day, and is not as familair with how it handles, as I do having driven it for almost two years. The other is *of course* every passenger in my van is in a car seat, booster seat, or seat belt (according to their age and size)!!!!!!! So by doing this, I have greatly reduced my risk, as well as the fact that I have taken out the back seat and therefore reduced the weight load in back of the rear axle. I think people have to research their options and make desicions based on what they will be doing, rather than what is the "typical" use of these vans. As well as the fact that when I did have a mini van, I had to have my then 11 yo sit in the front seat with an airbag...which is worse?! Or, shudders....double buckle??
OO

200 Odysseys

Just FYI - the 2005 Odysseys only have one top tether anchor spots in the 3rd row, as opposed to 2000-2004, which had 3 top tether anchor spots in the 3rd row.

Just something to be aware of...greatly limits placement of carseats, particularly like Huskies, which require top tethers after a certain weight.

15-passenger VANS

I just had to put the warning out there for others who aren't as aware of the risks involved with or as experienced with 15-passenger vans =)

I do believe you're right that having removed the last row of seats over/past the rear axle decreases your risk of rollever & that it is safer for all children to be in backseats as opposed to in front of an airbag!

If I felt confident driving such a large vehicle my stepson would be safer than he is now in my SUV ~ in which he has to sit in front *SIGH* I believe confidence does play a large role in how safely a person is able to operate any vehicle, though & I had a hard time moving into an SUV from my sedan {LOL} Although, over-confidence can be a big problem as well....

Also, I don't understand what you mean by "double buckle"

Double buckle is putting 2 kids in one belt...definitely a good thing to avoid.
I wonder how many of those 15 passenger van problems are caused by them being old and probably poorly maintained, and then driven by someone who rarely drives one, with a group of people who aren't restrained at all? (and speeding to whereever they are going...have you ever had one of those things whip past you on the freeway? <shiver>)
It's good to be warned about them, but I suspect it takes many of those factors to make those vehicles as deadly as the are, statistically.

Anyway, to the OP, I've had pretty good luck getting the new Parkway booster next to a Marathon (or just easy buckling in general), as it has no armrests to work around... I hope you can find just the right van that works for your family without forcing you to eat Ramen for a year (you're right...WHY do I have to buy all the fancy shmancy stuff just to get the side airbags? It's crazy!)

Unregistered said:

I read the info about roll over on 15 psg vans and I have two things to comment about. One is I believe most roll overs occur when someone who doesn't drive a 15 psg van every day, and is not as familair with how it handles, as I do having driven it for almost two years. The other is *of course* every passenger in my van is in a car seat, booster seat, or seat belt (according to their age and size)!!!!!!! So by doing this, I have greatly reduced my risk, as well as the fact that I have taken out the back seat and therefore reduced the weight load in back of the rear axle. I think people have to research their options and make desicions based on what they will be doing, rather than what is the "typical" use of these vans. As well as the fact that when I did have a mini van, I had to have my then 11 yo sit in the front seat with an airbag...which is worse?! Or, shudders....double buckle??
OO

Click to expand...

This is a good point, however, the large van still inherently has a higher center of mass, fewer safety features and inferior braking and handling. In an emergency situation, even an experienced driver is more likely to retain control in a car or minivan than in a 15-passenger model.

If you do require something that seats 10 or more, consider a vehicle with a full complement of head restraints, 3-point seatbelts and preferably dualies or stability control to compensate for the rollover risk. Here's an older thread about the Freightliner Sprinter that is somewhat unique in its class, though Ford and GM are slowly adding these features:

http://www.car-seat.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2063&highlight=freightliner

I had 5 in the sienna again yesterday. I realized that the only backless booster that really safely fits in the third row center position is the evenflo booster we have. I think it is called the right fit??? It is the booster that TRU gave away for free a couple years ago. The reason it works is because it is very narrow at the back, and fits between the the seat belt buckles. All our other backless boosters are really too wide to fit and then don't slide all the way back to the seat back. Using three harnessed seats in the third row has never posed this problem though.

I know this is an old post, but I figured at some point someone may be searching about how to get 3 in the back row