FF on plane required by airline?

Am about to take a complicated international trip with multiple stops and am all set to buy the tickets on British airways (with many of the flights actually operated by American Airlines). But I just noticed on the website that car seats can't be installed RF according to BA policy. I will be traveling with two kids, and the baby will be a few days shy of one year old when the trip begins. I'm obviously concerned about this restriction, as I don't want to FF the baby. However, the baby is already the size of a two to three year old (really enormous!) and so the only RF seat of the three that we have in which she still fits is the Evenflo Sureride, which I'm positive will not fit rf in standard economy seats (been there already with my older daughter, who at least thankfully fit into smaller rf seats until she was over 2yo). I can't afford a first class ticket, so I'm not sure what other options I have--I guess in theory if the airline at least allows rf, I could hope for being able to bargain for a bulkhead seat (although I have never been given these seats even when traveling with an infant because I have always bought seats for my kids and my impression is that they won't give these to you unless you have a lap baby, so I'm not sure that I should hold my breath on this one). There also were not really other good options with other airlines that didn't require 2 or more layovers on each leg (I'm traveling with both kids by myself for this trip) and/or cost twice as much. We ae flying in and out of Berlin, so we will have to cope with European airline tendencies probably no matter what airline we fly...

I guess I'm looking for reassurance here that if they really do enforce the ff only rule and/or I can't get a seat where the car seat will fit rf, that given the overall safety of flying that I am not somehow taking a terrible risk with the baby. (I really really hate how vulnerable as a parent we are to the whims of airlines and flight attendants!). Also, anyone else with a really large baby--what did you do when the child was too big for rf car seats that still fit in economy airline seating, but still too young to sit ff?

From what I have heard, they are pretty strict on the no rear facing seats policy. You will need to bring a convertible that can forward face if you fly with them, or it will be taken from you and checked. Forward facing a baby this young is dangerous in the rare case of a runway incident, but it's better than no seat and a belly belt. It will at least protect during turbulence. You'll probably want to bring one that allows for some forward facing recline for comfort.

Even large babies should fit in many seats that fit economy class rear facing, at a more upright angle. In future, you may want to fly airlines with more flexible car seat policies- US based airlines are bound by FAA regulations, if you can't change that this trip.

Thanks for the reply, ketchupqueen. I'm not sure what you mean about installing the seat at a more upright angle? The seat instructions say that it has to be installed at the specific angle marked on the seat in order to be installed RF, and the Evenflo Sureride definitely could not be installed RF in typical economy seats at the correct angle (I really tried). I'm not sure of another seat that is small enough for our daughter that would? She is even too big for our old Combi Coccero (and I never could get a correct install with that seat in taxis and rental cars, so I'm not sure if I'd want to bring that one even if the baby was small enough to fit into it). Would it really be safe to install the Evenflo at an angle that is different from the manufacturer's recommendations? Are there other large combination seats that would fit RF in a plane for a baby that is over 33 in and 30 lbs? (We are in Europe, so I'd either have to buy the carseat here, or I would have to use the Evenflo for the flight to the US, and use any newly purchased US carseat on the subsequent flights).

If it is possible to do so safely, I can definitely install the seat RF on the AA run flights, and I can of course always try to make my case to BA. I looked again for flights operated entirely by American carriers, but it seems that all of them have at least one leg operated by a European airline, where there is no guarantee of being able to RF even if the seat fits. And I have had FAs on some flights in the past (with my older daughter when she was a baby) force me to turn even a baby car seat from RF to FF (even though it was not a convertible!), because it interfered with the incline of the passenger in front of us (by being pretty assertive, I was able to at least have it RF for takeoff and landing, but even though I was still not ok with being forced to turn it FF during the flight, the FAs didn't give me a choice...).

If they operate under FAA rules they are required to let you rear face. This has more on that: http://carseatblog.com/8037/guest-blog-flying-with-a-car-seat-know-your-rights/

Many car seats allow a more upright angle for older children, including many that fit even large three and four year olds, and many would fit on an economy plane seat. Although Evenflo only specifies one, I'd personally be ok installing more upright to fit on a plane if needed, having talked to the company about the relative risks. They can't advise doing anything like that of course, but I don't believe it's as dangerous as forward facing a child this young, certainly (in fact I don't believe there is much danger at all in a more upright angle, but here it's a ”tough choice. Point being, I'd make it if needed.)

Most European seats aren't approved for air travel, though- there is a short list somewhere which someone here can hopefully help you find.

We found, when flying BA, that their flight attendants are extremely vigilant/insistent/knowledgeable about their company policies regarding children. Surprisingly, I don't think they checked our carseats to make sure they were certified for air travel (maybe they were already familiar with them?) but they did require us to FF everyone. They also require parents traveling with lap children to use "belly belts," which strap around the child and are attached to the parent's lap belt and are banned by the FAA. The flight attendants are, in my experience, not going to budge, and they will check frequently to make sure you are doing everything "right" according to their company's rules.

It is much safer to have your baby FF in a convertible seat on the plane than to have her on your lap, in a belly belt, or in one of their "bassinets." Yes, it would be safer to have the baby RF, and as long as the seat fits I'd do that on any flights operated by other airlines but on any flights where you'll need to have the seat FF, either by airline policy or because the seat simply won't fit otherwise, I'd try not to worry too much about it and know that you're doing absolutely the safest thing you can for your baby given the circumstances.

On a cheerier note, other than their bad policies regarding travel with small children, we really enjoyed flying on BA.

BA is very strict about their car seat policies. We chose not to fly with them because of that. If you are going through Berlin, I would HIGHLY recommend flying Lufthansa if possible. We've flown with them numerous times with our kids and have never had a problem. They have been interested or curious or even at times helpful, but never given us an issue as long as the seat was FAA approved. We've flown with RF seats, infant buckets and CARES harness. The pilot even checked out our CARES and loved it so much he said he wanted to recommend it to corporate to keep on planes for use.

Anyway, before purchasing tickets, I would research the car seat policies of the available airline options. You'd be surprised how different they can be! Lufthansa and Swiss Air both have lists of EU seats that are approved on their flights. They also accept any FAA approved seats, but for some reason that's not listed (well, last I checked!).

Good luck! We'll be flying to Europe this summer and I'm starting to look at flights too. For the first time in 7 years, I don't need to be concerned about car seat policies since both girls will be old enough to be car seat free on the flight! A momentous milestone for sure :dance:

Luftansa is a great airline. If the price and schedule are doable, that'd be a great option.

I personally wouldn't change your itinerary just because of having to FF almost-1yo who would ideally be RF, though, if all other factors are much better for you. BA and Luftansa are statistically two of the safest airlines out there.

Takeoffs and landings are by far the riskiest times during any flight. Minimizing the number of stops, choosing airlines with excellent safety records and scheduling layovers at airports you are comfortable with safety-wise are, in my book, a bigger deal as far as overall safety is concerned than is having an older infant RF vs. FF on a flight.

Thanks for the responses, minimalistmama, SuzaBanana, and ketchupqueen! These are really helpful. I looked further for trips on other airlines (and Luftansa in particular), but really couldn't find one that didn't involve 2-3 extra flights and/or were well over 4000 EUR (this particular trip is multi-city and therefore more complicated than usual--it also doesn't help that for historical reasons Berlin is not a hub for any airline, despite its large size...). minimalistmama, your final comment really did help me to feel a bit better, because it is true by choosing this BA itinerary, we are saving ourselves an extra 4-6 takeoffs/landings.

I did however write to BA to complain that 1) It took me 2.5 hours, and five phone calls to offices in three different countries to book a ticket for a baby with her own seat, because it cannot be done on the web (and customer service reps don't seem to know how to do it correctly either) and 2) the policies on infants and carseats are a serious factor that will likely prevent me from flying with them in future. I don't know if it will help at all, but I figure if eventually enough people complain, something might change...

ketchupqueen, about half the flights are operated through American Airlines, and so if I understand the FAA circular (to which you sent the link--thanks!) correctly, they would have to reseat us to a seat where the Sureride could be installed rear-facing, such as a bulkhead seat (assuming that the fixed armrests in that location don't make it too narrow for the seat)? Given my not-so-accomodating experience with airlines, I'm feeling skeptical about their actually doing this? Does anyone have experience with this?

Honestly I think it will fit better in a non bulkhead seat. People HAVE used it on planes before so you might want to search to check that out.

Thanks for complaining to BA! I get so tired of complaining to airlines... If everyone keeps bringing these things to their attention, maybe someday there will be improvement...

ketchupqueen, yes I'm not totally sure if it would fit between the fixed armrests in bulkhead. I have always been able to install it without lifting the armrests in regular seats, but only FF. As I mentioned already, I couldn't get it installed RF at the correct angle, although I may try your suggestion and RF at a steeper angle than is technically correct (just for the plane)--I'm not sure how steep the angle would have to be to fit between the seats though. I will have to check in the plane and make sure that it isn't somehow pushed too extremely far forward to work. I actually spent several hours looking for threads about installing this seat on a plane, and found nothing about anyone installing RF or in a bulkhead. I'm not worried about installing FF on a plane, as I have done that a bunch of times with my older daughter (who wasn't in this seat until she was 2.5 yrs old, so it wasn't the end of the world for me to FF her in the plane and then go back to RF in the car at that age).

If there is anyone out there who happens to have installed the Evenflo Sureride RF on a plane, I would love to hear from them.

Thanks, minimalistmama, for the appreciation--I hate having to be the person that complains, but I think this is so important! I hope, too, that eventually enough parents complains and airlines make this easier. I can't believe how much time I have "wasted" over the years having to make phone calls just to get airlines to correctly book a baby in their own seat, when there is no reason why their websites couldn't be correctly programmed to do this automatically...

What print outs/paperwork/or whatever do you all take with you on flights just to make sure you have all the documents you need to be able to show a less-than-educated-about-carseats flight attendant makes an incorrect statement or asks for specifics??? The FAA memo and the book for the carseat?? Is there anything else I should consider printing/copying???

I have literally never been questioned by anyone and I don't bring any documentation - mostly fly United, Continental, and American. If flying an Intl airline, FAA docs are irrelevant. If you are follow their rules and not trying to do something they disallow (like RF on BA), I wouldn't worry about it.

To OP - If your AA flights are code shares (you booked through AA but the aircraft is not an AA plane), I believe you must follow the actual aircraft's rules. So if you are on an Air Iberia flight, you must follow air Iberia rules (doesn't matter if you booked through AA).

I find it is easiest to not be militant and to just get along to go along. The FAs are just trying to do their jobs. If they are mistaken about the rules usually you get further with sugar (kindly asking them to double check their book because you read the policy online and checked with customer service) than venom. Your baby is MUCH safer FF on a plane than unsecured in a lap. Have a great time on your trip!!!!

Angie said:

What print outs/paperwork/or whatever do you all take with you on flights just to make sure you have all the documents you need to be able to show a less-than-educated-about-carseats flight attendant makes an incorrect statement or asks for specifics??? The FAA memo and the book for the carseat?? Is there anything else I should consider printing/copying???

Click to expand...

It's a good idea, IMO, to have the car seat manual and FAA memo that you mentioned, as well as a print-out from the airline about their car seat policy. I agree with gigi that you'll get farther by being nice if questioned, but honestly if they are insistent on something, and being nice isn't getting you anywhere, then your choice is going to be between getting kicked off the flight or going along with what they want. IF they are not following FAA regulations and/or their own printed policies, write a letter after the fact.

The carseat's manual, with the FAA certification page tabbed so you can find it immediately in the chaos of boarding, is your most important paperwork -- even if you have the "FAA Certified" sticker on the carseat itself, because if you run into installation trouble your answers will be there.

The FAA document http://www.faa.gov/passengers/fly_children/ is also important.

The other thing I'd print up is the airline's own information for travelers regarding flying with children and carseats, if it looks like it could be useful.

If you're looking for more detail, the Federal Aviation Regulations regarding child restraint systems on airliners are contained in 14 CFR 121.311 (http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/121.311) and there is an FAA Advisory Circular (http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/0/52b83b02fcc01375862577a60070fb65/$FILE/AC%20120-87B.pdf) that really goes into it... Flight crew members are familiar with CFR wording but are held to what's in their manuals; the Advisory Circular is written for airline personnel responsible for developing those manuals. So these wouldn't really be the most appropriate things to print out and bring along, and the wording is such that they're likely to be confusing or misinterpreted by anyone not really familiar with the acronyms or the FAA's way of wording things. #10, 11, 18, 19 and 23 on the document, however, are pretty easy to understand and could be particularly interesting to parents in certain situations. They give the specifics regarding regulatory requirements regarding CRS use on aircraft (you can't be prevented from using an approved CRS if you've purchased an aircraft seat for your child), worn or unreadable labels (a note in your carseat's manual will substitute for having no sticker on the carseat itself), placement of the CRS on the aircraft (discusses RF and FF), traveling alone with more than one child (carseats may be installed side-by-side but cannot block access to the aisle), and use of an approved CRS for a child with disabilities (kids over 40 lbs may use an approved CRS that is appropriate for their size and weight).

Again, you don't need to travel with a 14-page Advisory Circular. But if you've got an unusual situation and are expecting some pushback, you could use these resources to help familiarize yourself with the regulations.

Probably way more info than you were asking for but maybe it will be helpful to someone.

Enjoy your trip!

I always make sure to have the manual and the Advisory Circular with potentially pertinent parts highlighted. I've never needed them, though.

Angie said:

What print outs/paperwork/or whatever do you all take with you on flights just to make sure you have all the documents you need to be able to show a less-than-educated-about-carseats flight attendant makes an incorrect statement or asks for specifics??? The FAA memo and the book for the carseat?? Is there anything else I should consider printing/copying???

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The FAA documents are irrelevant for intl airlines and, in particular, those who have non-car seat friendly rules (BA, Alitalia and Air France are among the worst, no RFg seats, belly belts etc). Even an intl flight as a code share with a domestic airline is NOT bound by FAA rules. And the cabin crew won't budge.

I have flown many US and Canadian carriers and never once been questioned re car seat use inflight.

Right, the FAA info only applies to US-based carriers, so in this case it would pertain to the flights operated by American.

bubbaray said:

The FAA documents are irrelevant for intl airlines and, in particular, those who have non-car seat friendly rules (BA, Alitalia and Air France are among the worst, no RFg seats, belly belts etc). Even an intl flight as a code share with a domestic airline is NOT bound by FAA rules. And the cabin crew won't budge.

I have flown many US and Canadian carriers and never once been questioned re car seat use inflight.

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It appears I've caused confusion. I figured I'd ask this since the thread is talking about flight attendants requiring seats to be one way or another. My flight is not international. I should have started a new thread to avoid this confusion.

OP: my apologies.