US to Europe travel...

We will definitely go to Ireland for a family reunion and possibly other parts of the UK. We would also like to travel to France while we are over the Atlantic. Our trip might range from two weeks to two months depending on my husband's work arrangements.

This is next summer so size stats are next to impossible to give. Our children will be nearly 6, newly 3, and 10 months. The oldest is in the 50th percentile and still fits RF in a Radian (barely). I'd be willing to put him in a booster. The middle is 90th percentile but I'd like to RF her as long as possible. I imagine we'll be stuck FFing her in Europe though. The baby, who hasn't been born yet, will be about 8.5 months and I'm hoping will still fit in the Sungride 30 we just got.

From poking around on here it looks like NONE of our seats will be legal to use overseas? Is that correct? But if we have to buy seats over there would it be legal to use the same ones in the UK and France? But we'd be bringing an infant seat on the plane anyway for the baby and I'd like a seat for the middle child as well to help keep her contained on the flight... what to do with THOSE for months?? Or would you just have a 3 yo use a lap belt?

How nerdy am I that car seats were my first thought when my husband brought this trip up? (shhhh... don't tell him)

Your seats are illegal to use in Europe. Doesn't matter if it's for a day as a tourist or as a resident. But you and others should be applauded for thinking about car seats and safety on the ground.

Car seat safety in UK and France is like US horrendous. The further south in Europe one travels the worse education and car seat habits are. Just like in US. No one will notice if you are using your US seats. Bring them along if that's the best solution for you.

Using a car seat on the aircraft is irrelevant for safety. We have lots of data from FAA showing this very clearly. Yes I know everyone in US says it's "dangerous" on an aircraft without a car seat but that's nonsense.

Your youngest can be kept in the lap or in a seat, do what you prefer. The other two will of course need a seat. Using a lap belt is fine for both. There is no difference in safety for any of the kids.

You have done a nice job keeping your kids rear facing. A high back booster seat for your oldest is fine and just as safe as a harnessed FF seat. None of these are nowhere near as safe as rear facing but we can't keep our kids RF forever

Getting a new high back booster seat is a good idea so you don't need to bring one along for your oldest. Britax Adventure, also called Highliner, is a great seat which is cheap, comfortable and of course safe. These can be shipped to your address in UK. Sounds like there will be someone in the family there to pick you up and bring the seat. If you must have seats with you on arrival then bring a booster cushion for your oldest to use from the airport and then switch to a HBB.

Your middle child should be rear facing of course. Bring a seat along or get one in Europe. There are lots of rear facing seats far superior to the US seats. Compact, tall seat shells, 55 lbs rear facing weight limit, etc. If you stay two weeks this is likely not a great idea but if you stay two months it might make sense. You can always sell the seat as you go back if you prefer not to bring it back.

Adventuredad said:

Using a car seat on the aircraft is irrelevant for safety. We have lots of data from FAA showing this very clearly. Yes I know everyone in US says it's "dangerous" on an aircraft without a car seat but that's nonsense.

Your youngest can be kept in the lap or in a seat, do what you prefer. The other two will of course need a seat. Using a lap belt is fine for both. There is no difference in safety for any of the kids.

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Again you post this, although as has been posted in multiple threads before this the FAA strongly recommends using a car seat for air travel, and there are certainly examples available to show children who survived thanks to their seats brought on board. If the FAA has "lots of data" showing there is no advantage to a car seat then why do they recommend it on their website?

In addition to this, checking seats is a legitimate concern. After seeing my cousin's come off of the plane with obvious signs of distress and covering in liquor, I would never trust checking something that needs to save a child's life.

Adventuredad said:

Using a car seat on the aircraft is irrelevant for safety. We have lots of data from FAA showing this very clearly. Yes I know everyone in US says it's "dangerous" on an aircraft without a car seat but that's nonsense.

Your youngest can be kept in the lap or in a seat, do what you prefer. The other two will of course need a seat. Using a lap belt is fine for both. There is no difference in safety for any of the kids.

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Should I bother asking you for your sources again? Because here are mine.

Did you know that the safest place for your child on an airplane is in a government-approved child safety restraint system (CRS) or device, not on your lap? Your arms aren't capable of holding your child securely, especially during unexpected turbulence.

The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) strongly urges you to secure your child in a CRS or device for the duration of your flight. It's the smart and right thing to do so that everyone in your family arrives safely at your destination. The FAA is giving you the information you need to make informed decisions about your family's travel plans.
http://www.faa.gov/passengers/fly_children/

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The AAP is also clear on such things.

Occupant protection policies for children younger than 2 years on aircraft are inconsistent with all other national policies on safe transportation. Children younger than 2 years are not required to be restrained or secured on aircraft during takeoff, landing, and conditions of turbulence. They are permitted to be held on the lap of an adult. Preventable injuries and deaths have occurred in children younger than 2 years who were unrestrained in aircraft during survivable crashes and conditions of turbulence. The American Academy of Pediatrics recommends a mandatory federal requirement for restraint use for children on aircraft. The Academy further recommends that parents ensure that a seat is available for all children during aircraft transport and follow current recommendations for restraint use for all children. Physicians play a significant role in counseling families, advocating for public policy mandates, and encouraging technologic research that will improve protection of children in aircraft.
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/108/5/1218.full

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As is the National Traffic Safety Board.

The NTSB Child and Youth Transportation Safety Initiative will promote child occupant safety in all modes of transportation with a focus on educating parents and caregivers about ways to keep children safe when traveling. The NTSB will also continue to push for adoption of its recommendations concerning child occupant safety, such as:

Requiring separate seats and restraints for all airplane occupants, and requiring children younger than 2 to be restrained by an appropriate child restraint system during air travel
http://www.ntsb.gov/safety/children.html

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And Transport Canada

Transport Canada encourages passengers to use an approved child restraint system (car seat) when travelling by air with infants or children. Why? Although an infant under two years of age may be held in an adult's arms, using an approved car seat during a flight:

protects your child;
ensures their comfort while travelling; and
brings a familiar car seat to your destination.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/air-passengers-children-564.htm

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Here's an article from Forbes about why the FAA doesn't require it, even though they so vehemently recommend against lap babies (if you take their own wording and simply turn it, not using one is stupid and wrong). http://www.forbes.com/sites/johngog...nsafe-it-would-require-kid-seats-right-wrong/

OP, I think you'll have a great time. You can either arrange to have a booster delivered to you there for your oldest, or bring one along in the overhead bin. Either way. Just weigh the risk of the booster not showing up at the other end (even my husband forgot to pick us up once and so we went home in a cab. Good thing I travel with seats for my kids so that's always a possibility).

Watch out for which airline you book. I would encourage you to avoid the British companies. Rear facing is not allowed on them (150 mph down the runway, that's an added layer of safety) and often kids over three are not permitted to use a seat. Aer Lingus, British Airways, Ryanair, easyjet, etc. So read policies before you book. If you fly an American or Canadian carrier, you're ok.

Wendy

Do you by any chance has a different agency with the abbreviation FAA in Sweden? Because that is the only reason I can think of that you would so vehemently insist that the FAA has studies showing no need for CRS on planes and yet posts clear advisories, as quoted by Wendy, on car seat usage being preferred and safer on their official website. You have never once bothered to ever respond to requests to cite your sources or establish the credibility of your statements. Until you do, I think the only wise course of action is to trust the information multiple government agencies officially release over a random guy on the internet claiming there are secret studies no one can find.

Regardless of which is safer, putting a child in a car seat in a plane certainly isn't going to make them less safe and it's a great way to make sure the seat doesn't get lost or damaged...so I fail to understand why you are making it your personal mission to keep child restraints off aircraft.

This is what I would do:

For the 6yo: consider buying a britax kidfix (and having it shipped to family who will then collect you at the airport) then bring it back with you to the US for either personal use or sell it to someone here (there are a few members listing for one). If you don't want to buy a booster in Europe, bring a bubble bum.

For the 3yo bring a cheap RF convertible and use it on the plane. You will be hard pressed to find an economical RF option in Europe as the majority of seats max out at 13kg/30 lbs and those that don't basically exceed the €200 mark.

For the 8.5m use the snugride. Buy a ticket for baby and use it on the plane. Safety issue aside, I will tell you it SUCKS holding a newly mobile iinfant for 10 hrs. SUCKS. They want to explore so you will need to hunch down and help them crawl/walk in the aisles and they will likely nap a couple of times. It's simply uncomfortable holding a baby that long even in you wear them.

To get to/around the airport, load up a stroller or luggage cart with the car seats. Have the 6 yo walk, 3 yo can stand on a buggy board. I'd wear the infant in a carrier.

I've done the whole US carseats in Europe thing including flights and here some tips based on my experience:

I vastly prefer flying with my own 2 kids in carseats. As much hassle as it can be lugging the seats around the airport, it's worth it in the end. (I've done 3 trans-Atlantic flights with 2 kids and 2 Radians.) The only issue was on Virgin airlines where, as wendytthomas pointed out, since it is a British carrier, my seats weren't allowed. In this instance, I ended up sealing the seats in a large plastic Rubbermaid container padded with clothing to check them. Virgin gave me a seat for my younger son (2yo) and I brought an CARES harness for my older son (4yo). Wasn't thrilled, but the tickets were booked by work so I didn't get much choice.

Do you know if the cars you will be traveling in will have ISOFIX (LATCH)? A lot of the cars here don't have locking seatbelts like in the US. When I first arrived in Europe, I had to install my Radians in a car with locking clips but it was NOT an easy fit. Not fun after an 10-hour flight! I now have a set of seats with built-in locking clips in addition to my Radians to avoid using locking clips.

As previous posters have said, no one will notice/care if you bring your own seats. I've been driving over here with US seats for 2.5 years with no issues. Personally, I wouldn't purchase new seats over here as they are so different to US seats. But if you do buy seats here, it's my understanding that any seat purchase in one country would be good in all as they are regulated by the EU. Not positive on that though.

Any seat sold in the EU must conform to ECE R44/04 and is legal to use across Europe. The only thing that changes on the sticker is the number in the circle which I think identifies the country of origin.

I also use an American seat illegally in MIL's car. It was my travel seat (avenue) and I just didn't feel like buying another €2-300 convertible since it was there, ready to use. No one cares but then again I'm in Italy where most kids don't even use car seats.

The cheapest RF option in England atm is the Joie seats. I would suggest a Steadi or a Stages. RRP is 150 on the Stages and 130 on the Steadi, but they are constantly on sale for as low as 120 on the Stages with a coupon.
They are very popular and you shouldn't have any problems using it later or selling it on.

I went to Ireland this past summer with my then 12mo DD and 3yr+9mo DS. We didn't want to lug our Radians across the Atlantic because they're just too heavy and I was worried they might be too tall for the more compact European cars. Instead, we brought our Evenflo Tribute for DD and Granny's Chicco Nextfit for DS. Both kids were able to rear face safely and comfortably in our rental car.
Both seats were easy to install FF on the plane (Aer Lingus doesn't allow RF car seat installations)
I hope this helps!

£120 is still a lot to an American who can get a travel (ie cheap and lightweight) seat for like $80 or less.

You can get seats as low down as £25 but they don't rear face over 10kg sadly.
As convertibles go with a 40lb rf limit the Joie Tilt is the cheapest for just under £100.

And yes, it's extremely annoying.
All other cheap convertible seats has a 10kg RF limit, or 13kg, but the cheapest ones are all 10kg.

I think all US convertibles RF to at least 35 lbs. not 100% on that as, well, I live in Europe so only interested in US seats as far as keeping seats at my parents' place. I get to shop again for a US seat next year when my Avenue expires. But yeah... Not planning on spending a fortune on a seat that gets used 2 weeks per year.

The Combi Coccoro only goes to 33 pounds. I'm not aware of any other convertible car seats with weight limits under 35, but that might just mean they're rarely recommended around here. (The CCO has enough great features that it does get recommended: fits newborns, fits in tiny spaces.)

So is there no car seat you can buy in the US for a toddler to use in the UK that is legal?
I'm flying virgin Atlantic in 2 weeks, would like to get a car seat to use on the plane and whilst I'm over there.
Help!

Unregistered said:

So is there no car seat you can buy in the US for a toddler to use in the UK that is legal? I'm flying virgin Atlantic in 2 weeks, would like to get a car seat to use on the plane and whilst I'm over there. Help!

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no bc there are no seats that are dual certified. There are seats that exist on both sides of the ocean (bubblegum, nautilus, b-safe for example) but none carry both stickers.

Just use an American seat while there. Highly highly unlikely anyone will notice.

OK, so I'm thinking I'll take the snugride for the baby, the Guide 65 for the middle one (assuming she fits RF... well, I'd rather take that and FF her for the trip than lug the Radian...), and get a BubbleBum for the oldest. Either that or a Boostapak.

Sounds like it's worth taking the "risk" of displeasing the authorities using a non-EU seat. Our relatives won't be able to pick us up, there are too many of us and it is too far. We really will mostly need the seats for the reunion and after that will probably do a lot of train travel (but perhaps the seats can be attached to train seats?) to and around France.

Sorry for the delay- my baby was born a few days after this was posted and it's been a little busy!! I had all three RF until just last week :jive:

Didn't mean for this thread to turn into a seats-on-plane vs. lap-baby. I'm a big fan of non-lap babies so I will kindly ignore suggestions not to buy baby a seat and use it.

Congrats on your baby!!!

There are no seatbelts on trains, so the seats will go in the overhead, at the front of the car, in the baggage (you place it in), in your cabin, depends on what kind of train you're on. I've put my seats everywhere but a baggage car because we haven't done a train like that in the US, and in Europe it would have just come in the compartment/room with us.

Wendy