Standards in other countries

A friend is using a Britax convertible (name escapes me) that she bought for her son when she lived in the UK. She now lives in Canada. She knows it's illegal to use, but is ok with that...until we discussed top tethers. It doesn't have one. It does, however, route the lap/shoulder belt across the top of the shell in a similar manner to the Frontier. She asked me why it was ok for kids in the UK to use it then, without a top tether (and that cars there don't always have anchor points anyway?), and I explained about head excursion, etc. She summed it up by saying 'so kids in the UK aren't as safe as kids here?'

So how do the standards compare between Canada and the UK (or US and UK)? I'm not at all familiar with standards in Britain.

You can read the EU standard yourself, if you want. I have. It was an interesting read!

There is a head excursion limit in the EU. Furthermore, their testing is done either in real cars, or on sleds that exactly replicate real car conditions (with interior features, etc.) and they measure head injury criterion based on that. So if the dummy's head impacts the front seats, it won't really pass. They must list what vehicles it's compatible with- so it's possible to certify a seat for use in bigger back seats only, theoretically...

I haven't done a head-to-head comparison, but considering that they tend to have smaller back seats than we get over here, and the seats pass without the dummies bonking their heads... I'd say that they are safe, and you can't really do a head-to-head comparison as the standards are so different in what and how they measure, but both are safe standards, IMO, even though because the standards are so vastly different in requirements it's not really feasible to cross-certify a seat without some significant modifications in most cases.

[QUOTEyou can't really do a head-to-head comparison as the standards are so different in what and how they measure, but both are safe standards, IMO, even though because the standards are so vastly different in requirements it's not really feasible to cross-certify a seat without some significant modifications in most cases.[/QUOTE]

I may have to steal that excellent summary, I have to explain this scenario on a regular basis in my work life and you have summed it up brilliantly, thank you

B x

No, children in Europe are not as safe. The car seats are just not to the same standards.

Here in France, babies are expected to forward face once they outgrow their infant buckets. That can be as young as 6 months old. I couldn't even find a convertible car seat that rf'd.

Also harnessing. Once the child outgrows the convertible, you're expected to put him or her in a booster seat. Yes, that means 2 1/2 sometimes, in a booster...

They don't do extended harnessing. I tried to get an extended harnessed seat ordered, one available in the U.K. but they wouldn't send it to the continent (I was in Germany).

Tethers are rare. I only found two brands of cars in France who had them and I bought one (Toyota). Sometimes, only on bigger cars (I need a small car for city driving and parking). Volvo was willing to retro-fit them.

Using a tether improves the seats "performance" and they're starting to show in the stores. Last I looked, maybe two models had them (and I think they were Britax's lol!) It's improving but slowly here.

I just did the illegal thing and brought a Radian over from the U.S. Plenty of police have seen it but no one has batted an eye. We have routine roadstops.

European children though, usually spend less time in the car. Gas is expensive here and long commutes to school and work are done less. Parents will actually heavily factor this in when deciding on schools and activities for their kids. Plus public transport is better so that's often a better option. For this reason, the stats might not confirm higher fatalities.

Cars have to regularily inspected by law and there are the dreaded no-reason road stops cited above. The roads here are also in good condition. With the population distribution, you're never very far from help. It's rare to be somewhere super-remote, if you were in an accident. Big highways are often toll roads, meaning that not just anybody can get on (someone totally drunk would probably be reported or not bother to pay and take other routes). There are rules, such as no trucks on Sundays or big travel days on highways. There are tons of clean, well-kept road stops here too. So lots of plus factors when driving that lessen the chances of an accident happening at all.

Europeans also have a different attitude towards responsibility vs. Fate. It's cultural. On the news, they don't talk about smoke detectors whereas, in the U.S., that will be included in the story (how many, if they went off, etc.). When I got into a small accident, everyone said how lucky my dd was that she wasn't hurt. It wasn't "luck" people! I had her in a 5 point seat!! I have trouble convincing my in-laws to seek second medical opinions. They think my sister beat cancer because of "luck", not the fact that she sought out the top specialist with her type of cancer in the country...

Thanks for letting me vent!

Eclipsepearl said:

No, children in Europe are not as safe. The car seats are just not to the same standards.

Here in France, babies are expected to forward face once they outgrow their infant buckets. That can be as young as 6 months old. I couldn't even find a convertible car seat that rf'd.

Also harnessing. Once the child outgrows the convertible, you're expected to put him or her in a booster seat. Yes, that means 2 1/2 sometimes, in a booster...

They don't do extended harnessing. I tried to get an extended harnessed seat ordered, one available in the U.K. but they wouldn't send it to the continent (I was in Germany).

Tethers are rare. I only found two brands of cars in France who had them and I bought one (Toyota). Sometimes, only on bigger cars (I need a small car for city driving and parking). Volvo was willing to retro-fit them.

Using a tether improves the seats "performance" and they're starting to show in the stores. Last I looked, maybe two models had them (and I think they were Britax's lol!) It's improving but slowly here.

I just did the illegal thing and brought a Radian over from the U.S. Plenty of police have seen it but no one has batted an eye. We have routine roadstops.

European children though, usually spend less time in the car. Gas is expensive here and long commutes to school and work are done less. Parents will actually heavily factor this in when deciding on schools and activities for their kids. Plus public transport is better so that's often a better option. For this reason, the stats might not confirm higher fatalities.

Cars have to regularily inspected by law and there are the dreaded no-reason road stops cited above. The roads here are also in good condition. With the population distribution, you're never very far from help. It's rare to be somewhere super-remote, if you were in an accident. Big highways are often toll roads, meaning that not just anybody can get on (someone totally drunk would probably be reported or not bother to pay and take other routes). There are rules, such as no trucks on Sundays or big travel days on highways. There are tons of clean, well-kept road stops here too. So lots of plus factors when driving that lessen the chances of an accident happening at all.

Europeans also have a different attitude towards responsibility vs. Fate. It's cultural. On the news, they don't talk about smoke detectors whereas, in the U.S., that will be included in the story (how many, if they went off, etc.). When I got into a small accident, everyone said how lucky my dd was that she wasn't hurt. It wasn't "luck" people! I had her in a 5 point seat!! I have trouble convincing my in-laws to seek second medical opinions. They think my sister beat cancer because of "luck", not the fact that she sought out the top specialist with her type of cancer in the country...

Thanks for letting me vent!

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Nothing like making a blanket statement I guess.

Swedish seats allow rear facing to 4-5 years old or older. The britax two way elite harnesses in both RF and FF until 55 lbs which is longer than any US seat allows RF.

Tethering for RF certainly exists in addition to the foot prop. You can easily retrofit a top tether if you have a seat that requires one.

Even non Swedish seats that are widely available on the continent allow for FF harness to 18kg. Not sure how many 2 year olds weigh more than that. My 2.5 YO DD weighs 14kg.

If children are less safe than why does Sweden have such a low infant and child fatality rate when considering moving vehicle accidents? Why are some Americans importing Swedish seats?

I agree that the general car seat awareness is lower in Europe than in the US (i live in italy but am american) but there are certainly options equivalent to US availability if one looks.

newyorkDOC said:

Nothing like making a blanket statement I guess.

Swedish seats allow rear facing to 4-5 years old or older. The britax two way elite harnesses in both RF and FF until 55 lbs which is longer than any US seat allows RF.

Tethering for RF certainly exists in addition to the foot prop. You can easily retrofit a top tether if you have a seat that requires one.

Even non Swedish seats that are widely available on the continent allow for FF harness to 18kg. Not sure how many 2 year olds weigh more than that. My 2.5 YO DD weighs 14kg.

If children are less safe than why does Sweden have such a low infant and child fatality rate when considering moving vehicle accidents? Why are some Americans importing Swedish seats?

I agree that the general car seat awareness is lower in Europe than in the US (i live in italy but am american) but there are certainly options equivalent to US availability if one looks.

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I see plenty of blanket statements being made quite frequently about Swedish rf'ing seats being safer.

As has been discussed before - and what the poster you quoted actually did a very good job of identifying precisely, the roads and travelling conditions are a lot different there than here.

Did you know that a tired driver is more impaired than a drunk driver? And that drunk drivers are rarely caught? I would bet, that if you compared the rate of collisions in Sweden vs. the Us you would find a good explanation there.

Yes, I'm sure Sweden being aware of carseat safety and using their seats properly contributes - but I don't for a minute believe that it is because their seats are superior and that protects their kids. The North American kids that get killed are usually the kids who aren't restrained, are inappropriately restrained for their age/stage, or have major misuse going on in the vehicle. And as we all know, some collisions simply aren't survivable.

But in general, we don't see North American kids being killed by the hundreds when seats are used and installed properly - we see kids being killed because they're not restrained, or because they're moved to the next stage too soon. 3 year olds don't belong in boosters. 8 month olds should never be ff'ing. And that is a social attitude - if the North American social attitude caught up to the one in Sweden and every child was properly restrained in a properly installed seat, then the fatalities per 100,000 per mile travelled likely wouldn't be any higher here than over there, even with ff'ing 2 and 3 yr olds.

I never said that Swedish seats are superior. I said that there are comparable options in Europe to what is available in the US. She said that there weren't any convertibles available in europe that RF beyond 13kg which is the bucket limit in europe. That's simply not true. AD ships all over the world so it's not like Europeans (or others) do not have commercial access to the Swedish seats .

Also, not all countries do random checks or require you to stop at a toll. I haven't stopped at a toll in years I think. We have electronic highway passes just like in the US. Regardless, I do believe that perhaps the prevalence of drunk driving is inferior to the US so I don't doubt that overall road conditions have an influence on the stats. Whether the improved road conditions make all the difference in the stats is something only a statistician could surmise upon.

My point wasn't really to nitpick but more to say that Europe is not as backwards as the post makes it seem. Neither standards are "better" and it's ultimately up to parents to do the research that will keep their kids safe.

Finally, this is totally personal but I feel that my daughter is a lot safer in her TWE than in her Avenue we use while in the US. So I don't agree that she is less safe in Europe.

Eclipsepearl said:

No, children in Europe are not as safe. The car seats are just not to the same standards.

Here in France, babies are expected to forward face once they outgrow their infant buckets. That can be as young as 6 months old. I couldn't even find a convertible car seat that rf'd.

Also harnessing. Once the child outgrows the convertible, you're expected to put him or her in a booster seat. Yes, that means 2 1/2 sometimes, in a booster...

They don't do extended harnessing. I tried to get an extended harnessed seat ordered, one available in the U.K. but they wouldn't send it to the continent (I was in Germany).

Tethers are rare. I only found two brands of cars in France who had them and I bought one (Toyota). Sometimes, only on bigger cars (I need a small car for city driving and parking). Volvo was willing to retro-fit them.

Using a tether improves the seats "performance" and they're starting to show in the stores. Last I looked, maybe two models had them (and I think they were Britax's lol!) It's improving but slowly here.

I just did the illegal thing and brought a Radian over from the U.S. Plenty of police have seen it but no one has batted an eye. We have routine roadstops.

European children though, usually spend less time in the car. Gas is expensive here and long commutes to school and work are done less. Parents will actually heavily factor this in when deciding on schools and activities for their kids. Plus public transport is better so that's often a better option. For this reason, the stats might not confirm higher fatalities.

Cars have to regularily inspected by law and there are the dreaded no-reason road stops cited above. The roads here are also in good condition. With the population distribution, you're never very far from help. It's rare to be somewhere super-remote, if you were in an accident. Big highways are often toll roads, meaning that not just anybody can get on (someone totally drunk would probably be reported or not bother to pay and take other routes). There are rules, such as no trucks on Sundays or big travel days on highways. There are tons of clean, well-kept road stops here too. So lots of plus factors when driving that lessen the chances of an accident happening at all.

Europeans also have a different attitude towards responsibility vs. Fate. It's cultural. On the news, they don't talk about smoke detectors whereas, in the U.S., that will be included in the story (how many, if they went off, etc.). When I got into a small accident, everyone said how lucky my dd was that she wasn't hurt. It wasn't "luck" people! I had her in a 5 point seat!! I have trouble convincing my in-laws to seek second medical opinions. They think my sister beat cancer because of "luck", not the fact that she sought out the top specialist with her type of cancer in the country...

Thanks for letting me vent!

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Laughable and mostly nonsense

No, children in Europe are not as safe. The car seats are just not to the same standards.

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Complete and utter nonsense. EU car seats are just as good as US seats. With this kind of thinking it could easily be argued that EU seats are far safer since so many more compact high weight seats are available. There are some high weight seats in US but not the same selection.

US seats offer no safety benefit compared to EU seats. If we look at this comparions we see that higher weight limits RF seats are available in Euorpe which is an advantage.

If we look at the actual car seat standards, US standard FVMSS 213 compared to EU standard ECE R44, we find that the EU standrad is considered slightly stricter. Both standards are good and fairly strict. The standards are very complex and there are many factors but there is overall not a big difference between the two.

If we look at EU and US (an most other places) we see that the main problem is that parents keep children for such a short time in rear facing seats. Most parents in US RF until 12-ish months. Same in Europe with many countries starting to FF their kids far earlier.

Here in France, babies are expected to forward face once they outgrow their infant buckets. That can be as young as 6 months old. I couldn't even find a convertible car seat that rf'd.

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RF seat selection is in general not good outside Scandinavia but there are plenty of seats in France which will keep children rear facing way, way past 6 months.

They don't do extended harnessing. I tried to get an extended harnessed seat ordered, one available in the U.K. but they wouldn't send it to the continent (I was in Germany).

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Extended harnessing offer no safety advantage compared to a high back booster. There is no data, research or real life experience which support this. It's a belief which is common in US and Canada.

Tethers are rare. I only found two brands of cars in France who had them and I bought one (Toyota). Sometimes, only on bigger cars (I need a small car for city driving and parking). Volvo was willing to retro-fit them.

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Top tethers are not really used in Europe. A support leg is used instead of tether with Isofix seats since this is a better technical solution.

I just did the illegal thing and brought a Radian over from the U.S. Plenty of police have seen it but no one has batted an eye. We have routine roadstops.

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Don't see how this is relevant. It's fine to use a radian forward facing but it doesn't offer any safety advantage compared to a high back booster. Is it perhaps to show that police in France are clueless? I think police in general, regardless of country, have extremely poor knowledge of car seats. I've been stopped in US with Swedish RF seats with older kids in them and no one has complained.

When I got into a small accident, everyone said how lucky my dd was that she wasn't hurt. It wasn't "luck" people! I had her in a 5 point seat!!

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A FF forward facing does not offer any safety advantage compared to a high back booster seat. There is nothing supporting this claim

if the North American social attitude caught up to the one in Sweden and every child was properly restrained in a properly installed seat, then the fatalities per 100,000 per mile travelled likely wouldn't be any higher here than over there, even with ff'ing 2 and 3 yr olds.

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Habits and attitudes are important. So is direction from organisations, researchers, government, etc. Keeping children safe in cars is not difficult but it has to be a priority. It's not on the top 1000 list of important things for a majority of parents in US which is of course not good for safety. The same can be said of most countries outside of Scandinavia. Rest of Europe is no exception, habits in most countries are indeed terrible. Habits in general gets worse the more south we travel in Europe.

We see very clearly that children who are rear facing at age 2-3 years have a huge safety advantage. We see this when we compare children in Sweden at this age with similar countries like UK or Germany. Injury rates are quite similar the first 9 months or so when kids are in an infant seat. Injury rates show a huge difference when kids in UK and Germany are turned forward around 9-12 months. Things start to even out when kids are older.

What we were originally talking about, as far as I could tell, was the standards themselves.

Having read, in detail, both standards, and having, I think, a working knowledge of how car seats are tested and to what standard in the US and the EU (and to some extent in Canada, though I have only read a few parts of the standard there), I think both are safe STANDARDS. Both standards allow for the "passing" of seats that forward-face well before I consider it safe- 12 months in NA, 9 in EU. Both allow passing of booster seats that may be used by parents well before a child is old enough to sit properly in one. Both allow passing of seats that may be difficult for parents to install or use correctly every time. Both allow seats to be installed in vehicles that may be driven drunk, on roads with impaired drivers, in unsafe weather conditions...

On the other hand, both allow for seats that will rear-face for a good long time (and we're actually starting to see some of them, here in NA, though I'd like to see some changes made to allow some improvements that would lead to even longer rear-facing availability as well as additional features, and testing that better simulates real-world conditions.) Both allow forward-facing harnessed seats that will keep kids safe. Both allow boosters with excellent positioning and side-impact protection to pass...

I could go on.

The point is, both STANDARDS allow for safe seats to be put on the market- and some potentially unsafe ones as well. But how they are used is more up to both the companies marketing the seats and, especially, the parents using them.

I don't think a head-on comparison can be made, as I said, between the two standards. Neither do I think one can be made between road conditions. I DO think that best practices can be learned from on each side, and each standard could be amended to make more kids safer, sure, but probably won't be for a good long time...

In the mean time, I think both standards allow testing that ensures that seats are on the market that can keep kids very safe in cars- if they are selected, installed, and used properly.