Question MT users-does this look right?

mrandmrshaynes · May 24, 2011

Oh thank you all so much. You have all made my decision a lot easier

We are going to go ahead with getting these seats in the fall!! I can't wait and I'm so excited!!

lenats31 · May 25, 2011

mrandmrshaynes said:
Thank you for the information. Now my next question is how does this work in a crash. With normal RF and the straps being at or below it keeps the child from ridding up in the seat...so with them now ridding up in the seat of the MT how is this safe?

Sorry for the questions, I just really want to make sure of all these little bits of information before ordering two of them

Because the seat has a footprop and tethers, so harness position is less important in this seat than US seats. The reason that the seat can be used until the tip of child´s ears reach top is to keep the child in the RF position for longer time as this is safer regardless.

Lena

Adventuredad · May 26, 2011

Cute photos! A couple of comments:

- We install Multi Tech with support leg and also leaning against front seat.

- Manual has always said there should be a space between seat and car seat. This will be updated in future editions saying leaning is fine

- Tethering to seat bight or seat rails is equally safe

- Much testing has been done by manufacturers in Sweden and US regarding leaning against front seat and the issue with active airbags. Nothing has been found which would affect safety negatively. We have been leaning seats against front seat/dashboard (always deactivated airbag) since 1965 and have nothing but great experiences.

- If seat is half an inch from front seat it will certainly touch the front seat in an accident. Having it touch from the very beginning is safer

- Multi Tech is of course plenty safe regarding if installed free standing or leaning against front seat.

- Recommendation for harness is at or above shoulders. In reality there is no difference in safety regardless of harness position. In case above current position or a higher one would both be fine. Important thing is that tip of ears are not above top of seat shell. That means about one third of child's head can be above seat shell before switching seat.

- Children usually outgrow Multi Tech by shoulders touching head support. This is not really a problem since the rear facing time is so long. Most kids can sit rear facing in Multi Tech until age 6 and a height of 125 cm (51 inches)

- Forces on harness in a rear facing seat are extremely low. Especially the Swedish seats with support leg minimizing over-rotation. One should of course always tighten harness and make sure it's correctly placed but forces in a crash are mainly absorbed by the rear of the seat and distributed across child's whole body.

- Multi Tech is approved 9-25 kg. We recommend start using the seat when a child can sit unassisted.

Pixels · May 26, 2011

Adventuredad said:
- Tethering to seat bight or seat rails is equally safe

- Much testing has been done by manufacturers in Sweden and US regarding leaning against front seat and the issue with active airbags. Nothing has been found which would affect safety negatively. We have been leaning seats against front seat/dashboard (always deactivated airbag) since 1965 and have nothing but great experiences.

- If seat is half an inch from front seat it will certainly touch the front seat in an accident. Having it touch from the very beginning is safer

Touching or bracing in an American car with advanced airbag sensors in the front seat can negatively affect those airbag sensors, jeopardizing the safety of the front seat passenger. US vehicle manufacturers have told us this.

A seat that is nearly touching before a crash will not necessarily touch during the crash, especially when there is a footprop involved. The front seat will be moving forward at the same time that the carseat does. Regardless, the point is that the airbag sensors are not fed misinformation about the front seat occupant in the 1-2 seconds before the crash. Even if the carseat does impact the front seat during the crash, it will not jeopardize the child nor will it mess with the airbag sensors, as the car computer is smart enough to take data from a few seconds prior to the crash for just this kind of reason.

lenats31 · May 26, 2011

Pixels said:
Touching or bracing in an American car with advanced airbag sensors in the front seat can negatively affect those airbag sensors, jeopardizing the safety of the front seat passenger. US vehicle manufacturers have told us this.

A seat that is nearly touching before a crash will not necessarily touch during the crash, especially when there is a footprop involved. The front seat will be moving forward at the same time that the carseat does. Regardless, the point is that the airbag sensors are not fed misinformation about the front seat occupant in the 1-2 seconds before the crash. Even if the carseat does impact the front seat during the crash, it will not jeopardize the child nor will it mess with the airbag sensors, as the car computer is smart enough to take data from a few seconds prior to the crash for just this kind of reason.

As AD writes; testing on this very issu in US cars has been carried out and nothing has been found.

Lena

ketchupqueen · May 26, 2011

Who did this testing? Are the results published? Were they tested with the last 3 generations of advanced airbags in every vehicle make in America (they're now required to have advanced airbags, but the technology is constantly evolving, and different brands have different designs in different model years?) Has every different attachment method been tested with every airbag?

Pixels · May 26, 2011

Then why are we told by the auto manufacturers that a carseat braced against the front seat can negatively affect the airbag sensors?

LISmama810 · May 26, 2011

I imagine it depends largely on the technology used by the manufacturer. Advanced airbags need some way of being able to detect the position of the seat and the size of the passenger sitting in it. Some manufacturers use sensors in the seat legs; other manufacturers have different methods (presumably in the seat cushion or something).

I went to an airbag session at Lifesavers and asked the reps from GM and Ford about bracing. They had no problem with it.

However, engineers from Toyota and Honda have specifically warned against it.

If there has, indeed, been testing done in modern US cars, I would be interested in that information, including which cars were used, as it seems that the rules can vary widely from one company to another.

ketchupqueen · May 26, 2011

I'd also want to know if crash testing has been done on tethers routed around the bight of the seat for each brand.

KaiLing · May 27, 2011

I've got one more MT question. Do other users find a bit of a wiggle in between the foot (the part that is hitting the seat bight) and the seat itself? When I grasp at the belt path it wiggles a bit, but not at the seat bight. Rather, it's wiggling between the foot and the seat. I just ask because it's a different kind of wiggle than I'm used to since the seat and the foot are different pieces, unlike my US seats. I would not say this is an inch of movement, but because it's occurring between the seat and the foot I'm not sure how much there is, maybe 2 cm?

LuvMyCharlie · May 27, 2011

KaiLing said:
I've got one more MT question. Do other users find a bit of a wiggle in between the foot (the part that is hitting the seat bight) and the seat itself? When I grasp at the belt path it wiggles a bit, but not at the seat bight. Rather, it's wiggling between the foot and the seat. I just ask because it's a different kind of wiggle than I'm used to since the seat and the foot are different pieces, unlike my US seats. I would not say this is an inch of movement, but because it's occurring between the seat and the foot I'm not sure how much there is, maybe 2 cm?

Yes, mine does this. I'm not concerned, though, because it's still within the acceptable 1" of movement AND my Marathon does this as well. It's been written about here several times(the MA not the MT).

KaiLing · May 27, 2011

LuvMyCharlie said:
Yes, mine does this. I'm not concerned, though, because it's still within the acceptable 1" of movement AND my Marathon does this as well. It's been written about here several times(the MA not the MT).

Thanks so much: this is my first Britax, after all.

Adventuredad · May 28, 2011

- An enormous amount of testing is done by manufacturers in various countries which is never published. Leaning against front seat has been tested extensively in Sweden and US during many years. Nothing has been found which affect safety negatively. We also have real life expreience with this in Sweden.

Leaning a car seat against front seat (or dashboard) is the safest way to install a car seat. We install all seats with support leg and also leaning against front seat. If it wasn't safe we wouldn't be doing it. If someone doesn't feel comfortable with it then it's perhaps best not to do it.

- Tethering in various positions has been tested and no safety difference has been found. It's also equally safe to tether around same vehicle seat car seat is installed on. Helpful in minivans etc. Tethering around seat bight is shown in the Britax manuals.

- Forces on tethers are just like with harness low in our rear facing seats.

- A possible reason for manufacturers saying leaning on front seat is not allowed could be to guard against possible misuse. Someone could possibly lean against front seat with enormous force if they abuse it. I'm not sure how but it could possibly happen.

If we look at US manuals, regardless of products, we find many scenarios which are not seen in manuals in any other country. Things like no baby/cat in the microwave, no baby/cat in the owen, etc. There are lots and lots of very entertaining scenarios...

Enjoy your weekend!

Pixels · May 28, 2011

Certain US vehicle manufacturers have told us that bracing can affect the airbag sensors. No offense AD, but I'm going to follow what the manufacturer says, not what some random guy on the Internet from a different country says, especially when you can't provide a source to back your statements up.

Britax used to allow RF tethering to the same seat the child restraint is installed on, but they found that it gave poor performance and so they no longer allow it. SKJP and Combi have never allowed tethering to the same seat, and least not here in the US.

lenats31 · May 28, 2011

Pixels said:
Certain US vehicle manufacturers have told us that bracing can affect the airbag sensors. No offense AD, but I'm going to follow what the manufacturer says, not what some random guy on the Internet from a different country says, especially when you can't provide a source to back your statements up.

Britax used to allow RF tethering to the same seat the child restraint is installed on, but they found that it gave poor performance and so they no longer allow it. SKJP and Combi have never allowed tethering to the same seat, and least not here in the US.

Perhaps that has a lot more to do with where the tether is positioned on the seat itself. US car seats use the top tether to tether the seats in RF position. I can imagine how impractical and maybe unsafe that would be tethering these seats to the same seat they are installed on.

The swedish seats aren´t tethered with a top tether strap. All seats that are installed with the seatbelt have two tether straps. Only the Akta Graco Belogic has only one tether. Common for ALL these seats is that: The tethers don´t start at the top of the seats.

I would also imagine that most US convertiables have taller seat shells than Swedish seats in order to accommondate larger and older children.

For these reasons I just cannot see how tethering the US seats to the same seat in the car could be even remotely practical and space efficient at least. Perhaps it is unsafe too

Do you have a link about this being an unsafe thing to do with US seats by the way?

There are A LOT of findings that don´t get published for us to read:thumbsdown:

Lena

Pixels · May 28, 2011

I've seen recent pictures of OP's Charlie in both the Radian and the MT. Based on that, the MT is a bit taller than the Radian, one of the tallest convertibles on the US market. Most US convertibles are significantly shorter. From what you wrote, it sounds like you think the top tether originates from the tippy top of the seat on US models. It does on some models, but not on most, I don't think. Generally it comes from about 1/3 of the way down. It looks to me like the MT tether starts from about 1/2 way, so not a huge difference.

Britax has a statement not to tether to the same seat the child restraint is on in their FAQ. They don't give the reason why in their FAQ.

lenats31 · May 28, 2011

Pixels said:
I've seen recent pictures of OP's Charlie in both the Radian and the MT. Based on that, the MT is a bit taller than the Radian, one of the tallest convertibles on the US market. Most US convertibles are significantly shorter. From what you wrote, it sounds like you think the top tether originates from the tippy top of the seat on US models. It does on some models, but not on most, I don't think. Generally it comes from about 1/3 of the way down. It looks to me like the MT tether starts from about 1/2 way, so not a huge difference.

Britax has a statement not to tether to the same seat the child restraint is on in their FAQ. They don't give the reason why in their FAQ.

I used to own a Britax Regent. So I base it all on that. It cannot be installed rearfacing, but it would have been utterly impractical and not very space efficient to say the least. This seat is 10 or is it 12 cm taller than the MT. That does make quite a bit of difference. The inside meassurement of the MT is 62 cm. I don´t know how big it is on the outside unless I meassure it. Did you take recline angel into account when you looked at the photos of the Radian and the MT?

Do you a link to a site that says it is unsafe to tether to the same seat and why?

Lena

KaiLing · May 28, 2011

lenats31 said:
I used to own a Britax Regent. So I base it all on that. It cannot be installed rearfacing, but it would have been utterly impractical and not very space efficient to say the least. This seat is 10 or is it 12 cm taller than the MT. That does make quite a bit of difference. The inside meassurement of the MT is 62 cm. I don´t know how big it is on the outside unless I meassure it. Did you take recline angel into account when you looked at the photos of the Radian and the MT?

Lena

I don't know how useful it is, but there's some photos of the MT, installed behind the driver with the Radian in the background installed behind the passenger on my MT album: http://www.flickr.com/photos/90991238@N00/sets/72157626559080377/with/5704178084/

lenats31 · May 29, 2011

KaiLing said:
I don't know how useful it is, but there's some photos of the MT, installed behind the driver with the Radian in the background installed behind the passenger on my MT album: http://www.flickr.com/photos/90991238@N00/sets/72157626559080377/with/5704178084/

Looked at the photos. What are the meassurements of the Radian? and do you think it would be practically possible to tether this seat to the same seat it is installed on if you could according to the user guide?

Lena

KaiLing · May 29, 2011

lenats31 said:
Looked at the photos. What are the meassurements of the Radian? and do you think it would be practically possible to tether this seat to the same seat it is installed on if you could according to the user guide?

Lena

Measurements are here:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AvfUm4x64h3AdFZ0c0pkbkRlV1hfeklSWmpZY0kweEE&hl=en#gid=0

Are you talking Australian tethering? I don't think so, and I doubt it's allowed. It tethers just fine to the front seat RF. If you mean FF, it has a top tether like most US seats.
.

Question MT users-does this look right?

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