Traveling from Canada to UK

Jadzia's mom · Jan 8, 2011

I'm trying to figure out what to do about car seats for traveling to the UK from Canada.

My kids are 15 months (about 22 lbs, RF) and 4 years (about 32 lbs, FF), both in Eddie Bauer 3-in-1s.

I've looked into buying car seats in the UK when we're there, but most UK car seats have only 3-point harnesses. They look so unsafe, and I don't want my kids in them! There are some 5-point harness ones available, but they're ridiculously expensive (like 300 British pounds or more). So I'm thinking about bringing my Eddie Bauers along. The problem is that they're so big! I'm travelling alone with 2 kids, and bringing the seats is going to be a real PITA. (My oldest will have her own seat on the plane, but I don't think the plane seats will be big enough to put her car seat in, so she'll just be in the regular seatbelt on the plane.)

I'm also not certain about fitting them in the seats in British cars. My parents will be renting a minivan for part of the time we're there, as there's no way there will be space in anything smaller for three adults and two big car seats, but I'm not sure if they'll have the right anchors for fitting.

My other option could be to bring the smaller seat that my 15-month old used to be in. It's an infant seat with a separate base and she's a little tall for it but still within the weight limit.

The info I'm looking for is:
- Do British car seats have UAS anchors the same as the Canadian ones? What about tethering anchors?
- Are 5-point harnesses actually safer than 3-point or is it just that I'm so used to the 'norms' in Canada?
- What are the legal implications of using car seats internationally?
- If I check it in as baggage on the plane, is it likely to get damaged / dropped in baggage handling, making it unsafe?

Any other ideas or recommendations for how to deal with this situation?

Adventuredad · Jan 8, 2011

- Using a Canadian or US car seat in Europe is illegal. Doesn't matter if it's for a day as a tourist or for months as a resident. It's unlikely anyone will notice you are using non ECE R44 certified seats.

- European seats don't have top tether

- Newer cars normally do have Isofix

- Using a high back booster for an older child, 4 and up, is just as safe as using a harnessed seat. There is no research or real life experiences which show anything else.

- If your 4-year old is extremely short it might be difficult to find a good belt fit. As long as the older one is 40 inches i should be fine.

- There are quite a few harnessed seats in Europe but weight limit is 18 kg (40 lbs) for all except for the Swedish seat Britax Two-Way which would easily keep your 4-year old rear facing or forward facing for years to come if desired (weight limit 55 lbs both RF and FF). Many of these harnessed seats are realtively inexpensive. Britax Evolva is a popular choice and cost about €150 in case you feel better after using a harnessed seat.

- Checking seats as luggage is fine. I have traveled extensively around the world with my two young kids and always brought two Swedish 55 lbs rear facing seats. Never an issue (doesn't mean something couldn't happen though)

Something could happen to your seat but it's extremely unlikely. This could also take place when gate checking a seat. Bringing your seat on board is of course safest since you also know it will be there for sure when you land

Using a car seat on board is irrelevant for safety.

Enjoy your trip!

mommycat · Jan 8, 2011

Hello and welcome!

1. European carseats - some have ISOFIX and some don't. Most won't have top tethers. The limits on most seats are low (or they used to be). I am glossing over here because I think you will better off bringing your own seats. (read below)
2. some feel that a 5pt harness will offer side impact protection, and the extra straps probably offer some better distribution of crash forces over the hips, but if the seat is designed with a deep padded shell to "wrap around" the child, and wider, padded straps, I can see them being ok.
3. technically a non-EU seat would probably be illegal but I can't see anyone being too picky about it as long as the child is restrained in an otherwise appropriate seat. Especially in a rental car. Do your parents live there? If they do, I would probably suggest that the rental be in your name.
4. Yes, there is a distinct possibility that your seat would get lost or damaged if checked, even if you gate check it. And, you may not even be able to tell.

So, on to what I would do if it was me, assuming that both kids fit in the seat: buy two Sceneras. They are cheap ($69 at Walmart right now? I am assuming you are in Canada) so they are not a major expense and if you do have to check one and it is damaged it's no huge deal, they are light and easy to take along, narrow and fit great on airline seats, smaller shell so they don't take up a lot of front-to-back room in the car.

I would RF your 15mo - check that she has at least 1" over her head, but she should. You would need to check if your 4yo has room left in the straps though - I think they are only about 14.5" so pretty low. But if she fits, great.

You would need to practice installing with a locking clip. Many EU cars' seatbelts don't lock for installing seats, so unless you have ISOFIX in the rental, you will need to use the locking clips. ISOFIX does not require a top tether, so many vehicles don't have the anchors. If that is the case, you cannot use the lower anchors for installing the FF seat - you would then use the lap/shoulder belt for installing that seat. L/S is probably prefereable than lap only as the shoulder belt will add a little bit of restraint higher on the seat.

I would buy a seat on the plane for both kids, and bring their seats on board if at all possible.

I have to run right now, but here is a link to my "trip review" when flying to Poland about a year ago with 2 kids and 2 carseats, you might find some of it helpful:
http://www.car-seat.org/showthread.php?t=102030

mommycat · Jan 8, 2011

Adventuredad said:
- Using a high back booster for an older child, 4 and up, is just as safe as using a harnessed seat. There is no research or real life experiences which show anything else.

...

Something could happen to your seat but it's extremely unlikely. This could also take place when gate checking a seat. Bringing your seat on board is of course safest since you also know it will be there for sure when you land Using a car seat on board is irrelevant for safety.
QUOTE]

Some good info on EU seats and rules there. Just want to clarify these two points.

Yes, a booster can be a safe choice for a 4yo, but ONLY if the child will sit properly positioned for the *entire* trip. A child who is not booster trained is very highly unlikely to do so, and it is a rare 4yo who has the impulse control and maturity to do so. It means no falling asleep and slumping over, no turning, twisting or leaning over to pick up toys or look out the window, never putting the seatbelt under the arm or behind their back, etc, 100% of the trip. You know your child. Also, it sounds as if she is very slight at only 32 lbs, so I would not feel comfortable placing her in a booster even if it was rated that low. I feel that there is a good reason why Transport Canada chose that as a minimum weight to booster and would rather err on the side of caution.

Airplane w/ seat - it is perfectly safe to fly without one - unless you happen to be unlucky enough to encounter severe turbulence, an aborted take-off, a crash landing, etc. These events can and do happen, however VERY rarely, and a properly restrained child will be safer than the one who bounces off the ceiling or gets crushed in their parent's lap or flung across the plane. Not to spread terror, but my own comfort level is to have my kids in seats. This will of course depend to some degree on the airline you fly with (or your airline code-shares with) as some non-Cdn carriers have very childseat-unfriendly rules. Aside from the (rarely-needed) potential safety benefits, having a seat for each child and having a carseat for them to sit in is in my opinion a sanity saver for a parent on a long flight. :twocents: I was very happy with my decision to bring my seats with me, as you can see in my review - both the kids slept comfortably through the majority of the flight time.

Adventuredad · Jan 10, 2011

Yes, a booster can be a safe choice for a 4yo, but ONLY if the child will sit properly positioned for the *entire* trip. A child who is not booster trained is very highly unlikely to do so, and it is a rare 4yo who has the impulse control and maturity to do so. It means no falling asleep and slumping over, no turning, twisting or leaning over to pick up toys or look out the window, never putting the seatbelt under the arm or behind their back, etc, 100% of the trip. You know your child. Also, it sounds as if she is very slight at only 32 lbs, so I would not feel comfortable placing her in a booster even if it was rated that low. I feel that there is a good reason why Transport Canada chose that as a minimum weight to booster and would rather err on the side of caution.

Weight of a booster child is almost irrelevant (unless the law says something about weight). That means a 40 lbs child is as safe as a 50 lbs child of the same age. Skeleton of children mature with age, not weight.

The statement of " but ONLY if the child will sit properly positioned for the *entire* trip. " is brought up often. So is "only if child can sit 100% during all times". These comments are well meant but disregard reality.

To keep a child safe in a car a parent needs to make a small effort. Unfortunately most parents don't make any effort which create safety problems.

A parents with a booster child need to perhaps remind child to sit well in the beginning. The problem of making an effort doesn't go away with those using harnessed seats. A harnessed seats needs to be correctly installed and harness needs to be tight.

A parent making a small effort will remind booster child to sit well in beginning and also make sure a harnessed seat is nicely installed and harness is tight.

What we find is that parents who don't make an effort have problems both with harnessed seats and booster seats although issues differ.

As mentioned before, we do turn a majority of children at age 4 over here and they go straight to high back boosters. It works extremely well.

Since both harnessed seats and high back boosters offer good protection I suggest using whatever a parent is comfortable with. Both have strengths and weaknesses but there is again nothing which show harnessing being better in any way for older kids (4 and up).

TerisBoys · Jan 10, 2011

Adventuredad said:
Weight of a booster child is almost irrelevant (unless the law says something about weight). That means a 40 lbs child is as safe as a 50 lbs child of the same age. Skeleton of children mature with age, not weight.

Law in Canada, where the OP is from, prohibits using a booster for a child under 40 pounds. This means the OP will legally have no opportunity to even test her 4yo in a booster before the trip and will have to attempt to booster train a child while in a strange country, strange vehicle, and around strange people.

In this case I agree with the other previous posters. Pick up a Scenera or two to travel with. Assuming the 4yo isn't too tall for the Scenera. I'd also check her fit in the Alpha-Omegas if this is the case. Unless they're the newer ones with the 50# weight limit, she may be close to outgrowing this seat heightwise as well.

If she IS too tall, it might be a good time to look into her next seats, and choose one that will work on the trip as well as for backup in the future. The Evenflo Chase is $75 at BRU, harnesses to 47# and has relatively high harness slots.

As far as using the infant seat - in what way is the baby "too tall"? If she has at least 1" of hard shell over her head, and is within the weight limit, that may well be the best way to go for her.

mommycat · Jan 10, 2011

Adventuredad said:
The statement of " but ONLY if the child will sit properly positioned for the *entire* trip. " is brought up often. So is "only if child can sit 100% during all times". These comments are well meant but disregard reality.

Let me rephrase then - the child should be able to sit properly for the entire ride with minimal reminders. If the parent needs to constantly remind the child to sit still then the child is not ready. In most cases, parents cannot commit their full attention to telling their child to sit, ergo a booster is not an appropriate choice in that case - a distracted parent increases the risk of a collision, and a child who is intermittently out of position for most of the trip is also at risk for that same amount of time. It doesn't mean they *will* be injured, but it makes it more *likely* that this might happen. Also, a vacation on unfamiliar roads with the excitement and distractions and stress of a trip abroad is not the ideal place and time to booster train.

Adventuredad said:
Weight of a booster child is almost irrelevant (unless the law says something about weight). That means a 40 lbs child is as safe as a 50 lbs child of the same age. Skeleton of children mature with age, not weight.

At a certain weight, yes, the weight becomes irrelevant. Between 40lbs and 50lbs there may not be any difference. However, there is some evidence to suggest that a child under 40lbs is at increased risk of submarining, which I am sure plays into why TC set the minimum at 40lbs. The child in question is barely over 30lbs. It is quite possible that she is petite all around and that a child that size would be RF in Sweden, making the statistics you are leaning on there not reflect realistically what a child her size may or may not fare well in.

I don't want to get into an argument, but I wanted to make clear where my reasoning was coming from. I would rather err on the side of caution, and taking into account the 32lb child (who could not legally use any Canadian booster to booster train before the trip) and the fact that she has no experience riding in a booster AND is young enough to likely need numerous reminders and possibly lack the impulse control to consistently heed them at all, I really do think that a booster is not the right answer for this situation.

OP, sorry to repeat a fairly common discussion in your thread. I hope you go enough information (and enough background info, to boot

) to make an informed decision for your children, one way or the other.

Jadzia's mom · Jan 10, 2011

Thanks to everyone for all the great info and advice! I'm so happy I found this forum!

mommycat said:
So, on to what I would do if it was me, assuming that both kids fit in the seat: buy two Sceneras. They are cheap ($69 at Walmart right now? I am assuming you are in Canada) so they are not a major expense and if you do have to check one and it is damaged it's no huge deal, they are light and easy to take along, narrow and fit great on airline seats, smaller shell so they don't take up a lot of front-to-back room in the car.

Perfect. I bought two last night - $65 each. They even come with the plastic cover / bag with a handle! My 4yo is level with the top slots, so it won't last much longer than this trip for her! I'm still a little concerned about the width for the plane seats, but I'll give it a go. I'm on a budget at the moment, so didn't want to buy a separate seat for my little one. I've been trying to find somewhere in Canada where I can get one of those Baby B'Air flight vests for her, but haven't had much luck yet. I might just keep her in her mai-tai for most of the flight.

A couple of people mentioned 'gate checking'. What's this? Can you hand things over to the flight attendants at the gate, rather than checking them with the luggage?

mommycat said:
You would need to practice installing with a locking clip. Many EU cars' seatbelts don't lock for installing seats, so unless you have ISOFIX in the rental, you will need to use the locking clips. ISOFIX does not require a top tether, so many vehicles don't have the anchors. If that is the case, you cannot use the lower anchors for installing the FF seat - you would then use the lap/shoulder belt for installing that seat. L/S is probably prefereable than lap only as the shoulder belt will add a little bit of restraint higher on the seat.

Thanks for the reminder about the locking clips. I'm so used to the locking seatbelts that I might have forgotten about that

.

Even for cars without UAS / ISOFIX, when installing with a seatbelt you're still supposed to use the tether. Is there a difference between the European and North American seats that makes them not need the tether, or is it just disagreement about whether or not they're necessary? I think I'd still want to find somewhere to anchor the tether, even if it's not as secure as the 'correct' place.

Adventuredad said:
Using a high back booster for an older child, 4 and up, is just as safe as using a harnessed seat. There is no research or real life experiences which show anything else.

My common sense (and my degree in Mechanical Engineering) tells me that this can't be true. It just seems like it would be so much easier for a kid to be thrown from a booster. Plus, even if they're not thrown, a harness would spread the load over a larger area and reduce the severity of injuries in a crash. Maybe there's no evidence, but I have to go with my own assessment of this one.

mommycat said:
OP, sorry to repeat a fairly common discussion in your thread. I hope you go enough information (and enough background info, to boot ) to make an informed decision for your children, one way or the other.

No problem. The input from everyone has been very useful! Thanks.

mommycat · Jan 10, 2011

Nice to "meet" a fellow Mech. engineer.

Jadzia's mom said:
I'm still a little concerned about the width for the plane seats, but I'll give it a go.

It should fit fine. The Scenera is only ~16" wide IIRC. It fit fine in the seats on our flights - we did a local hop Hfx-TO on one of the smaller planes and then trans-Atlantic on I believe a 737.

I'm on a budget at the moment, so didn't want to buy a separate seat for my little one. I've been trying to find somewhere in Canada where I can get one of those Baby B'Air flight vests for her, but haven't had much luck yet. I might just keep her in her mai-tai for most of the flight.

babyproofingplus.com carries the Baby B'Air vest. The only issue I have with that is that in the case of a crash landing, etc the baby can be crushed in front of the parent. It's a bit of a "choose your favourite risk" scenario (loose baby vs danger of crush). Obviously both risks are very small as flying is statistically very safe. Ahh, seems the instructions tell you not use during take-off, and I assume landing, so there you go.

It does look like it would be more comfortable with a toddler than a mei-tai.

A couple of people mentioned 'gate checking'. What's this? Can you hand things over to the flight attendants at the gate, rather than checking them with the luggage?

That is correct. You keep your carseat and/or stroller with you through the airport until you pass the gate. Typically you hand the item over just before you step onto the plane, on the gangway. The items are then loaded by hand and are the last thing to go on the plane, and the first to come off. They are returned to you at the door as you leave the plane. Since the items do not go through the giant automated airport luggage system, they are somewhat safer.

Even for cars without UAS / ISOFIX, when installing with a seatbelt you're still supposed to use the tether. Is there a difference between the European and North American seats that makes them not need the tether, or is it just disagreement about whether or not they're necessary? I think I'd still want to find somewhere to anchor the tether, even if it's not as secure as the 'correct' place.

It is a difference in design I believe. EU seats tend to have rigid latch rather than webbing and also I think they have lockoffs for the shoulder belt? AdventureDad can speak to this with more authority. I would not tether to an un-approved location as it will be likely to fail, leaving the tether hook and sundry attached hardware to become a dangerous projectile. While in Canada seats must be tethered msot are still "designed" to fare well without the tether since we share designs with the US. Seats in the US are tested with and without the top tether, and while the performance is better with it, the seat still performs acceptably with just the belt install.

My common sense (and my degree in Mechanical Engineering) tells me that this can't be true. It just seems like it would be so much easier for a kid to be thrown from a booster. Plus, even if they're not thrown, a harness would spread the load over a larger area and reduce the severity of injuries in a crash. Maybe there's no evidence, but I have to go with my own assessment of this one.

The harness vs booster for older kids is a well-debated issue on this board. If you are interested, do a search for "harness vs booster" and enjoy.

A well fitting booster will hold a child in. Some roll-out over the belt may happen but the safety is supposedly not impacted severely as by that point much of the force has been redistributed to the strong bony structures of the body. While a harness does distribute the loads more evenly, and also provides some SIP, it also will probably hold the body more firmly fixed in place while the head whips forward, increasing neck loads (why racecar drivers now tether their heads with their harnesses). So, once a child has a skeletal structure which is stonger and more pronounced (hips/shoulders) and is mature enough to sit in the correct position in a booster, it may be that a booster provides better protection since neck loads may be the governing source of injury and a booster will allow the whole torso to move more in line with the head. The problem is, we have no published studies to back up either position, and very little incentive to devote resources to the topic - since both options are essentially very safe for older children for whom a booster is an appropriate seat choice.

I hope you stick around the board. It is a fascinating subject for a hobby.

mommycat · Jan 10, 2011

FYI, the planes we travelled on were actually a 319, 767 and an E90.

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