Travel--Inexpensive seats for 20-mo-old + almost-4?

In January we'll be taking a short flight (3 hours, small airports) to my in-laws'. When we're there we'll use their 2008 Hyundai Elantra.

On the flight my 20-month-old has no seat. I know ... having read up here since buying the tickets, we should have gotten her one. But, given that we didn't, I am thinking about bringing an Ergo for takeoff, any turbulence, and landing. We'll also need to buy a carseat and have it shipped to the in-laws' in advance. At home she is in a RF Marathon. For the trip, I am looking for something inexpensive, because the seat will get used once a year at most, and not too huge, since the Elantra is small. And as easy as possible to install, because I will probably have to install on the fly when the in-laws pick us up at the airport. I'd install the seats in the outboard positions.

It looks like the Safety 1st Complete Air and Learning Curve True Fit are good options for the Elantra. Maybe also the Radian, but I found a thread here that suggests it could be difficult to install in the Elantra. The first two are both pretty expensive. Am I missing any good options?

Since our almost-4-year-old (he will be 2 months shy of 4 when we go) does have a seat on the flight, I was planning on strapping him in his Britax Frontier. Since the airports aren't too big it won't be too hard to carry it with us. However, I did see a thread here where people suggested that a 4-year-old might be OK with just a lap belt or a Safeguard Go. He is thin (31-ish lbs) but average height. Also, if we don't bring his seat on the plane we'd have to buy another for the grandparents'. Do you guys have any recommendations for whether we should bring or buy a carseat? What seat should we buy, if we should buy one?

Thank you so much.

You won't be allowed to use the Ergo for take off or landing. You cannot strap the baby to yourself then in any way. I'd call the airline and see if you can buy a ticket for her.

Rather than ship a seat to the grandparents, I'd have them go out and buy it. I'd do a Complete Air, from the ones you listed, since it'll be the most comfortable to fly sitting next to in the future.

For your older child, at 31 pounds I doubt the lap belt would fit properly. The Go is not FAA approved so that's not an option. Rather than the Frontier, I'd probably go out and buy her an Evenflo Maestro. It's easy to install and narrow, and lightweight. I'd also look into a Traveling Toddler to move the seat around the airports, or get a GoGo Kidz, or use a luggage cart.

Wendy

Hi Wendy,

Thanks for your response!

First of all: I know that air travel can be a touchy subject, so I'm hoping no one flames me for asking this question. But is there any data documenting injuries to children during turbulence or other incidents that would have been prevented using carseats? On larger jet planes, that is. My impression is that air travel is extremely safe, unless something terrible goes wrong in which case .... well. We all know what happens then. What is the chance of an incident where a carseat could play a pivotal role? I do know that extreme turbulence does happen, and that if it's strong enough to pull a child out of your grasp, injuries could be severe; but I don't have a good idea of the likelihood of this occurring.

Other questions... are there any other carseats you would recommend for the younger? The Complete Air is very expensive for a seat that might get used four or five times at most.

I don't think the grandparents are going to buy the seat, so that's why I will have it shipped to their house, unless there is a strong reason to avoid doing so.

(The Maestro looks much more price-friendly, but unless you expect that I will encounter noticeable difficulties installing the Frontier on the plane or in the Elantra, I think we will just suck it up and haul it with us; the cost of buying another seat still isn't trivial.)

Thanks again for your thoughts.

Unless you want to leave a seat at your in laws for the younger one specifically, I'd travel with the marathon if your older child sill fits in it and have him sit in it on the plane. Have a maesro waiting for your older one at your destination and install the marathon rf for your younger one. I've traveled all over the place with my boulevard...i think it will be much easier to handle than your frontier.

Gigi, that's an interesting thought. He is too big for the Marathon, but not enormously so. His head does protrude above the shell by an inch or two. However, if it's just being used on the plane for a relatively short period, where you're mostly worried about restraint in case of turbulence, maybe that is OK?

gigi said:

Unless you want to leave a seat at your in laws for the younger one specifically, I'd travel with the marathon if your older child sill fits in it and have him sit in it on the plane. Have a maesro waiting for your older one at your destination and install the marathon rf for your younger one. I've traveled all over the place with my boulevard...i think it will be much easier to handle than your frontier.

Click to expand...

:yeahthat:

At 31 pounds as long as the shoulder straps are still above his shoulders he should be fine in the Marathon. I have traveled using a Marathon several times and it isn't too bad at all. I second Wendy's suggestion of some type of cart to pull the seat through the airport. We used to just bungy cord our seats to a regular wheeled luggage cart and my son could even sit in his seat if he got tired while we were going through the airports. One thing to remember if you use the Marathon is that it can be almost impossible to get it uninstalled if you don't flip the buckle of the plane seat belt before you buckle it into the other side of the seat belt. Or you can also ask for a seat belt extender.

As far as turbulence goes, I know there was an incident this summer...I want to say United and maybe it ended up landing in Colorado?...anyway the turbulence was severe enough that many passengers suffered injuries like whip lash, sprains, and head injuries. If a passenger was holding a lap baby/child on that flight they would not have been able to keep a grip on the child.

You might want to call and see if you could get your daughter a seat...then you could just bring your 2 seats and not worry about purchasing a new one for your in laws. Probably more expensive to get the ticket than the carseat but safer for you and her.

I am sure some others will chime in on possible seat options for you as well . Hopefully you will be able to come up with a good solution! We just recently moved my youngest to a HBB full time so now I am always trying to figure out how to get 2 booster seats to our destinations since they can't sit in them on the plane. But this board was super helpful to me when I was in the midst of traveling with 5 pt harness seats.

*oops, we were posting at the same time...I am not 100% sure but I think as long as his ears are not above the top of the shell of the marathon it is still ok...but hopefully someone else can verify that???*

Unregistered said:

Hi Wendy,
But is there any data documenting injuries to children during turbulence or other incidents that would have been prevented using carseats? On larger jet planes, that is. My impression is that air travel is extremely safe, unless something terrible goes wrong in which case .... well. We all know what happens then. What is the chance of an incident where a carseat could play a pivotal role? I do know that extreme turbulence does happen, and that if it's strong enough to pull a child out of your grasp, injuries could be severe; but I don't have a good idea of the likelihood of this occurring.

Click to expand...

I think this is a great question and one I don't have a great answer for. I do know there are incidences of turbulance where people are injured, but it seems like no one has looked at the data specifically for children and whether they were in car seats. I also think that if only one child is injured in an airline each year, the statistics mean nothing to the parent of that one child.

However, statistically, (IMHO) I think the most compelling reason for using a car seat on the plane is so that the airline doesn't have a chance to lose or damage the seat. We've always needed our car seats at our destination so that's been my compelling reason.

HTH

Melanie

Unregistered said:

First of all: I know that air travel can be a touchy subject, so I'm hoping no one flames me for asking this question. But is there any data documenting injuries to children during turbulence or other incidents that would have been prevented using carseats? On larger jet planes, that is. My impression is that air travel is extremely safe, unless something terrible goes wrong in which case .... well. We all know what happens then. What is the chance of an incident where a carseat could play a pivotal role? I do know that extreme turbulence does happen, and that if it's strong enough to pull a child out of your grasp, injuries could be severe; but I don't have a good idea of the likelihood of this occurring.

Click to expand...

Air travel IS extremely safe. That's why carseats and tickets aren't required under two. The FAA says, "Well, if we make it too expensive people will drive and that's more risky." I'll concede that fact. However, air travel is not without risk.

Turbulence is a risk. So is dropping out of the sky. In a six mile vertical drop a $200 piece of plastic isn't going to do much (though it can. Remember the little girl found upside down in her grandfather's plane, strapped into her seat?). But there's a risk you're not thinking of. That's the runway emergencies. Those are JUST like car crashes, except at 150 mph instead of 30 mph.

http://www.cbs6albany.com/news/jetblue-1281014-hold-boston.html
http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/...runs-off-runway-after-landing-in-wyoming.html
http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/12/04/russia.plane.accident/index.html?hpt=T2
http://www.komonews.com/news/local/110002594.html

Those are four news articles since Thanksgiving about runway emergencies. There may be more that didn't make the news. But a crash on the runway, at 150 mph, is five times more severe than what's considered a severe crash on the ground (crash tests are done at 30 mph). Let's say your 20 month old weighs 30 pounds. In a 150 mph collision that will be 4500 pounds of force for you to restrain with your arms. That likely won't happen. So 4500 pounds will go flying around the cabin. She'll hit walls and the ceiling as if she weighs 4500 pounds, which will likely be fatal to her (it takes 2000 pounds of force to the head to be fatal, 400-4000 pounds to the chest depending on age [at 20 months she's on the very low end of that] to be fatal). She will hit other people at 4500 pounds of force, injuring them. I won't sit next to an unrestrained infant if I can avoid it for my own safety, and the safety of my kids. I don't want an elephant dropping on them. And if I'm knocked out or killed, my kids won't get off the plane, and they'll die too. I couldn't have that on my conscience if it was my baby who caused the death of others. Next, in a collision, even if your baby is alive and has hurt no one, where will they be? Try riding down your driveway at 5 mph and have someone slam on the brakes while you hold your child (do NOT go above 5 mph). Feel how hard you need to hold on to keep baby with you. Or better yet, hold a 30 pound sack. Imagine that then at 30 times the force necessary to hold on. Your baby will go flying (no pun intended). And then in the 10 seconds you have to evacuate before the smoke chokes you, where's your baby? Six rows up? Six rows back? Under someone's seat? In a non popped open overhead?

The ONLY reason these scary situations are allowed to occur is because air travel IS safe. However, that doesn't mean it's 100% safe.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40575974/

Now, does a $400 ticket seem far more reasonable? Babies are expensive. We know this going into it. Before they're born even the most frugal parents have laid out at least $1000, most have done more. Then there's food, clothes, carseats, toys, books, everything that comes with them. Plane tickets are just that, another thing that come with having another person in your family. It's not a deal to get a ticket for free. I consider it a celebration to have made it there.

On top of that, if you check a carseat, consider that price gone as well. I wouldn't use a seat after it's been checked. It's not trustworthy.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzmJr1a-BHU&feature=player_embedded"]YouTube - Mistreating luggage[/ame]

They're not gentle to carseats, and carseats are lifesaving devices.

So buy a seat for your baby at all times. Put them in a carseat when the seatbelt light is on. Keep them seated as you would stay seated during flight. Ideally buckled at all times, but get up and move now and then.

Even a short flight has two very dangerous parts to it. Take off, and landing. Those are by far the most dangerous parts of a flight.

There is one bonus to buying baby a ticket (well, several if you include the safety aspect of it, and the sanity aspect of not having to hold a baby who doesn't understand "we can't move around right now,"). As a ticketed passenger you get their baggage allowance. So you can put things under their seats, or in the overhead, or check them.

Anyway, do I have numbers? No. Studies haven't been done as far as I know. Do I know it's safer for a child to have their own seat, and therefore sit in a carseat (since the lapbelt doesn't normally fit until 40 pounds), as per the FAA recommendations? Yes. Even though the FAA doesn't require it, it has been a recommendation for as long as I can remember.

Child Safety on Airplanes

Did you know the safest place for your little one during turbulence or an emergency is in an approved child restraint system (CRS) or device, not on your lap?

...

FAA strongly urges parents and guardians to secure children in an appropriate restraint based on weight and size. Keeping a child in a CRS or device during the flight is the smart and right thing to do.

...

Always follow the manufacturer's instructions when using a CRS. FAA recommends that a child weighing:

* Less than 20 pounds use a rear-facing CRS
* From 20 to 40 pounds use a forward-facing CRS
* More than 40 pounds use an airplane seat belt

Click to expand...

All that is from http://www.faa.gov/passengers/fly_children/crs/.

Wendy

There was at least one crash in which a woman survived (as did most other passengers) but the child on her lap did not.

Injuries by air are very rare, but they do happen.

If you wanted to get the GO I would put your older child in the Marathon for on the plane (the GO can be one of your carry ons). We travel with a Go for my almost 5yo and an Avenue for my just turned 3yo. Like PP stated, the head above the shell by an inch or 2 is not an issue a FF seat is outgrown by height when the shoulders go above the shell or the top of the ears are above the shell.

If you're going to get a seat to leave at your IL's and you only travel once a year I'd do either the Maestro for your older (and have him ride in the MA on the plane), or get a Scenera for you younger to use there (and I'd probably still take the MA instead of the Frontier, that's a big, heavy seat to travel with).

Basically, I would avoid checking a seat at all costs. That is more dangerous IMO than having a lap child - but I've found it so worth the ticket price to not have to hold a squirmy toddler on my lap.

ETA - make sure you will be able to put the GO in a latch position if you want to consider that option. It requires a top tether and is a pain to install & looses quite a bit of harness height if you need to install with the seatbelt)

Traveling through the airport with carseats isn't impossible and I personally wouldn't purchase new ones for 1 trip. I looked like a bag lady but I had a radian and a snugride + base on my graco ipo and used a bungee cord to secure it all. I carried the baby through the airport in a baby carrier and the 3 year old walked. On the airplane I used the seatbelt for the 3 year old (might get me flamed, IDK), gate checked the stroller and the snug ride, and put the baby FF in the Radian. I had a hell of a time getting the Radian and 2 kids onto the plane by myself but it was doable. Getting through the airport was humorous, but again I made it work.

So, if I was you I'd invest in a bungee cord and a baby carrier. Put the carseat in the stroller, push it thorugh the airport along with hanging your carry ons from it and carry the baby. Security will be a bit of a pain b/c you do have to put the stroller and carseat through the belt AND remove the baby but it's not really that big of a deal to do it for a one time trip IMO. Gate check the stroller and carseat since you didn't buy a seat. I traveled like this alone with 2 kids so it should be fairly easy with 1 kid and two adults.

Just my 2 though, and I'm always about saving money :thumbsup:

If you will be traveling back home a lot then I'd get an inexpensive seat for your daughter and have it shipped to the IL's via walmart/amazon whatever but for such infrequent trips I'd bring my carseat with.

wendytthomas said:

Air travel IS extremely safe. That's why carseats and tickets aren't required under two. The FAA says, "Well, if we make it too expensive people will drive and that's more risky." I'll concede that fact. However, air travel is not without risk.

Turbulence is a risk. So is dropping out of the sky. In a six mile vertical drop a $200 piece of plastic isn't going to do much (though it can. Remember the little girl found upside down in her grandfather's plane, strapped into her seat?). But there's a risk you're not thinking of. That's the runway emergencies. Those are JUST like car crashes, except at 150 mph instead of 30 mph.

http://www.cbs6albany.com/news/jetblue-1281014-hold-boston.html
http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2010/12/flight-from-ohare-runs-off-runway-after-landing-in-wyoming.html
http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/12/04/russia.plane.accident/index.html?hpt=T2
http://www.komonews.com/news/local/110002594.html

Those are four news articles since Thanksgiving about runway emergencies. There may be more that didn't make the news. But a crash on the runway, at 150 mph, is five times more severe than what's considered a severe crash on the ground (crash tests are done at 30 mph). Let's say your 20 month old weighs 30 pounds. In a 150 mph collision that will be 4500 pounds of force for you to restrain with your arms. That likely won't happen. So 4500 pounds will go flying around the cabin. She'll hit walls and the ceiling as if she weighs 4500 pounds, which will likely be fatal to her (it takes 2000 pounds of force to the head to be fatal, 400-4000 pounds to the chest depending on age [at 20 months she's on the very low end of that] to be fatal). She will hit other people at 4500 pounds of force, injuring them. I won't sit next to an unrestrained infant if I can avoid it for my own safety, and the safety of my kids. I don't want an elephant dropping on them. And if I'm knocked out or killed, my kids won't get off the plane, and they'll die too. I couldn't have that on my conscience if it was my baby who caused the death of others. Next, in a collision, even if your baby is alive and has hurt no one, where will they be? Try riding down your driveway at 5 mph and have someone slam on the brakes while you hold your child (do NOT go above 5 mph). Feel how hard you need to hold on to keep baby with you. Or better yet, hold a 30 pound sack. Imagine that then at 30 times the force necessary to hold on. Your baby will go flying (no pun intended). And then in the 10 seconds you have to evacuate before the smoke chokes you, where's your baby? Six rows up? Six rows back? Under someone's seat? In a non popped open overhead?

The ONLY reason these scary situations are allowed to occur is because air travel IS safe. However, that doesn't mean it's 100% safe.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40575974/

Now, does a $400 ticket seem far more reasonable? Babies are expensive. We know this going into it. Before they're born even the most frugal parents have laid out at least $1000, most have done more. Then there's food, clothes, carseats, toys, books, everything that comes with them. Plane tickets are just that, another thing that come with having another person in your family. It's not a deal to get a ticket for free. I consider it a celebration to have made it there.

On top of that, if you check a carseat, consider that price gone as well. I wouldn't use a seat after it's been checked. It's not trustworthy.

Video Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzmJr1a-BHU&feature=player_embedded

They're not gentle to carseats, and carseats are lifesaving devices.

So buy a seat for your baby at all times. Put them in a carseat when the seatbelt light is on. Keep them seated as you would stay seated during flight. Ideally buckled at all times, but get up and move now and then.

Even a short flight has two very dangerous parts to it. Take off, and landing. Those are by far the most dangerous parts of a flight.

There is one bonus to buying baby a ticket (well, several if you include the safety aspect of it, and the sanity aspect of not having to hold a baby who doesn't understand "we can't move around right now,"). As a ticketed passenger you get their baggage allowance. So you can put things under their seats, or in the overhead, or check them.

Anyway, do I have numbers? No. Studies haven't been done as far as I know. Do I know it's safer for a child to have their own seat, and therefore sit in a carseat (since the lapbelt doesn't normally fit until 40 pounds), as per the FAA recommendations? Yes. Even though the FAA doesn't require it, it has been a recommendation for as long as I can remember.

All that is from http://www.faa.gov/passengers/fly_children/crs/.

Wendy

Click to expand...

I am on the c-s app and there is no "thanks" button but I want to thank you for this post Wendy. You really have a way with words and are very effective at making your point!