RV Safety

Jude'sDad · Nov 11, 2009

I am dealing with a situation with an RV manufacturer who does not use the LATCH system in their vehicles. The shoulder strap is so high because of window placement that I don't feel the regular seat belt installation style is good enough.

The manufacturer is basically standing behind the fact that vehicles over a certain weight are not required to have the LATCH system. They want to charge me in excess of 5 thousand dollars to have something installed.

Tis is a very expensive vehicle and I really think it would be much safer with this system.

Any thoughts?

carseatcoach · Nov 11, 2009

It is true that non-passenger vehicles are not required to have LATCH.

It is true that carseats can be safely installed with seatbelts.

Unfortunately, it is also true that very few RVs have safe places to install carseats. Can you provide details about the RV and where you plan to install the carseat?

Jude'sDad · Nov 11, 2009

I am reluctant to yet expose the manufacturer publicly. However, it is a "B" class RV. It is Sprinter Van and it is a 2010 year model and is the 2300 model. It is a full RV conversion with no alterations to the walls of the vehicle as Mercedes will not allow it. So, although it is technically heavier than a regular van with all of the RV stuff installed, it is at the end of the day, still in effect a passenger van with RV amenities.

The problem in this vehicle is that the shoulder strap in the mid seat is so high because of the window that it never feels like it is tight enough. A LATCH system on the seat would make it so much less slack and feel safer.

So far, their stance is that they will not do anything about it unless I pay them 5000 dollars to R&D an alternative. So, I'd have to pay for their safety tests.

chickabiddy said:
It is true that non-passenger vehicles are not required to have LATCH.

It is true that carseats can be safely installed with seatbelts.

Unfortunately, it is also true that very few RVs have safe places to install carseats. Can you provide details about the RV and where you plan to install the carseat?

Maedze · Nov 11, 2009

Jude'sDad, don't worry, you're not slandering anyone.

RVs do not have the LATCH system. They are not required to by law. Any thing they put in now would be 'after market' and therefore not trustworthy. Save your 5 thousand.

The problem with the seatbelts in the rear of the vehicle is that they're rarely bolted to the frame of the vehicle, and rarely facing the front of the vehicle.

However, if this seatbelt is a standard belt bolted to the frame, being 'high' is not an issue. If you could post a picture perhaps, we can walk you through a correct install.

Jude'sDad · Nov 11, 2009

I personally think they should make this right. It does not feel tight no matter what I do. Why should RV's not have to comply? That is ludicrous as far as I am concerned.

I will take some pics and post later. Thank you.

Maedze said:
Jude'sDad, don't worry, you're not slandering anyone.

RVs do not have the LATCH system. They are not required to by law. Any thing they put in now would be 'after market' and therefore not trustworthy. Save your 5 thousand.

The problem with the seatbelts in the rear of the vehicle is that they're rarely bolted to the frame of the vehicle, and rarely facing the front of the vehicle.

However, if this seatbelt is a standard belt bolted to the frame, being 'high' is not an issue. If you could post a picture perhaps, we can walk you through a correct install.

Maedze · Nov 11, 2009

Jude'sDad said:
I personally think they should make this right. It does not feel tight no matter what I do. Why should RV's not have to comply? That is ludicrous as far as I am concerned.

I will take some pics and post later. Thank you.

I agree, take it up with your lawmaker

Unfortunately, those are the rules, and the company you are dealing with is doing exactly what the other companies are doing, so I don't think there's anything particularly unscrupulous about them

LISmama810 · Nov 11, 2009

The geometry of the shoulder belt rarely has anything to do with how a seat installs. It's the lap portion of the belt that holds the seat--the shoulder belt is just sort of there. Is it possible you're not locking your seatbelts, or that they don't lock?

Definitely post photos if you can.

Jude'sDad · Nov 11, 2009

No, I don't either. However, more and more RV buyers are younger with younger children and will care about this feature. I see no downside to implementing the LATCH system. I think it would be great PR for them to do it. I think it would be horrible PR if something bad happened becuse they simply stood behind the rules of the Vehicle safety code, which we all know is flawed.

Maedze said:
I agree, take it up with your lawmaker

Unfortunately, those are the rules, and the company you are dealing with is doing exactly what the other companies are doing, so I don't think there's anything particularly unscrupulous about them

Jude'sDad · Nov 11, 2009

They do lock. Really, the issue is why on God's green Earth can't they just make it easier to install by implementing the LATCH system? It's safer becuase it is done wrong less often, as we all know.

LISmama810 said:
The geometry of the shoulder belt rarely has anything to do with how a seat installs. It's the lap portion of the belt that holds the seat--the shoulder belt is just sort of there. Is it possible you're not locking your seatbelts, or that they don't lock?

Definitely post photos if you can.

Maedze · Nov 11, 2009

Jude'sDad said:
They do lock. Really, the issue is why on God's green Earth can't they just make it easier to install by implementing the LATCH system? It's safer becuase it is done wrong less often, as we all know.

Well, that's not quite correct

As a technician I can tell you that people make just as many mistakes with LATCH as they do with the seatbelt.

Jude'sDad · Nov 11, 2009

The stats say otherwise.

Maedze said:
Well, that's not quite correct As a technician I can tell you that people make just as many mistakes with LATCH as they do with the seatbelt.

Maedze · Nov 11, 2009

Jude'sDad said:
The stats say otherwise.

What stats? Maybe you're thinking of the concept that LATCH is supposed to be easier than the seatbelt.

The fact is that people routinely screw up LATCH installs.

In fact, I've done over 1000 child restraint checks. Exactly one seat was installed correctly, and as I recall it was a seatbelt install. And that seat had been check by a technician prior to.

The stats do not say that people tend to use LATCH correctly more often.

LISmama810 · Nov 11, 2009

I have to agree with Maedze. I rarely--RARELY--see a correct installation with a seatbelt or LATCH.

LATCH is supposed to be easier, but often it isn't. Add to that the fact that LATCH is often not available in the seating position we recommend for child seats, and it becomes moot. Add to that the fact that vehicles and car seats have weight limits for LATCH, so it can't be used beyond a certain point anyway.

Also add to that the fact that although LATCH is supposed to be easier, it often isn't. Often, by the time you have lengthened the LATCH strap, dug around in the seat bight for the anchors, gotten the things connected, and pulled it tight, you could have done a seatbelt install with less time and effort. UNinstalling a seat with a seatbelt install requires pressing a button. With LATCH (especially the standard hook connectors), it takes several times as long, and often involves a lot of swearing.

Jude'sDad · Nov 11, 2009

LATCH is so easy and the seat belt style takes longer and is a pain. It feels looser as well.

Why are the new laws all about LATCH?

I seriously think a tired Mother would install a LATCH seat easier than a seat belt style that you almost have to stand on to get it right. Maybe you all need to think more like a parent and less like a tech about this.

Jude'sDad · Nov 11, 2009

FYI:

Why use the lower anchors?

Because its easier than using the vehicle's safety belt (usually!) A child safety seat needs to be secured very tightly to the vehicle--so that it moves less than one inch in any direction when you pull or push HARD on the child safety seat. This means that the safety belt holding the child safety seat to the vehicle has to be tight and must stay tight. Lower anchor straps stay tight when you pull them tight. Most vehicle safety belts do NOT stay tight when you pull them--the loosen as soon as you let go. In order to get the vehicle safety belt to stay tight you usually need to do something to it, like pull the shoulder strap out all the way or use a locking clip. This is generally more difficult than just pulling a lower anchor strap tight.

carseatcoach · Nov 11, 2009

Are you aware, Jude'sDad, that most of the posters on this thread are CPSTs and well-versed in installing carseats?

All vehicles manufactured after 1996 have locking seatbelts: seats will not loosen if they are installed properly.

LATCH is not safer, but it's a red herring anyhow -- you have chosen a vehicle in which LATCH is not required and is not included, so it's kind of pointless to be upset that it's not there.

LISmama810 · Nov 11, 2009

Most of us here are mothers as well as techs.

While it's true that you do need to pull most seatbelts all the way out to lock them, that extra step is not necessarily a difficult one. But it's often a matter of preference. (Even before I became a tech, I preferred seatbelts to LATCH.)

Also, when you check for tightness, you give a moderate nudge with your non-dominant hand--there's no need to shove hard.

Judi · Nov 11, 2009

Latch was supposed to make things easier. Turns out, it just made more issues.

Maedze · Nov 11, 2009

Jude'sDad, I was a mother long before I was a technician. I've taught hundreds of parents how to install child restraints. Furthermore, the seatbelt does an excellent job of holding the child restraint tightly. LATCH does not do that job 'better'. Sometimes LATCH is easier, sometimes seatbelt is easier, but there simply isn't one answer for everything.

Once you show us a picture, we will be happy to offer our opinions on whether or not the seat can accommodate a child restraint, and, if so, how to best do it.

Jude'sDad · Nov 12, 2009

This is like an anti-LATCH forum or something. I'm not an idiot, nor do I have to be some certified tech to understand how to get something to tighten. I think some of you are arrogant because you have this tech thing associated with your name. I'm sorry, I think RVs should have LATCH. That's my opinion after dealing with both ways.

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