Support leg for rear facing convertibles

[Hazelandlucy]

So with my Ranier, is it safer to be 1/4 inch away from the drivers seat in a fairly reclined position (45 degrees) or several inches away more upright (30 degrees). The reclined seat would obviously touch in a crash cause I think it will touch in a hard stop. The upright seat I guess it would depend on the force, but if it did touch it would hit it harder?

I read in a earlier thread about downward rotation that the crash energy is at the most right at impact - so hitting a seat 1 inch away right at the initial impact is worse than hitting a seat further away because some of the force would be dissipated by then.

I was thinking of it like a horse kick....you stand close and you don't get the full momentum/force like you do at the maximum velocity (might not be right word!) of 7 feet away, but apparently crash energy is different!

 

[Hazelandlucy]

Would using Coccoros for the baby with European routing be the second best option and removing the center console? That would help me with a place to tether as apparently there is a good one when you remove the console.

Or is a taller shell safer?

Or do neither matter with the way our seats are designed and the foam now in the head and the fact I would have straps tight/seat installed right?

I have learned so much!! Thanks so much everyone helping me!

 

[Dillipop]

The euro routing would likely negate the need to remove the console- it's unlikely with the euro routing the seat would rotate enough to reach a console, IMO.

 

[cottonpenny]

I read in a earlier thread about downward rotation that the crash energy is at the most right at impact - so hitting a seat 1 inch away right at the initial impact is worse than hitting a seat further away because some of the force would be dissipated by then.

I was thinking of it like a horse kick....you stand close and you don't get the full momentum/force like you do at the maximum velocity (might not be right word!) of 7 feet away, but apparently crash energy is different!

Hmmm...but I think that my seat would be touching (bracing) before the actual impact. So why wouldn't that work the same way as a load leg?

This is fascinating

 

[Hazelandlucy]

All current rearfacing R44 seats have *something* to lessen the downward rotation, be it a support leg, "Euro routing", Australian-like tether [this is rare] or mandatory bracing to the front seat/dashboard. I do recall one Euro study where most common injuries by mass groups were shown and with infant seats it was mostly head injury and upper leg injury, while with the more upright and larger group 1 rear-facing seats it was arm injury. Here, scroll to pages 9-10.

This is what worries me - why do we have nothing over here with our big seats and heavy toddlers? Not supposed to brace because of the airbags, no load legs, very few seats that allow euro routing or Australian tether.

I really was about to bring over something like the Max Fix or the new Isize Maxi Cosi 2way Pearl - the installations look so amazingly easy with the light and sound feedback - but they are too heavy to rear face past about 35 lbs with our latch limits.

So the best thing to do is install a convertible upright as possible, have a tight enough harness and move the front seats forward as much as possible if you can't brace/touch?

I just read in another old thread about someone who had a Swedish seat that didn't have a support leg and could be braced or unbraced. It went to 55lbs. If not braced it needed 15 inches of space in front of it! That is what concerns me about these US seats that now go RF so high. I worry that carseat companies are trying to meet the new ERF demand without properly testing for what happens at higher speeds, with a seat in front the RF seat, and a heavy toddler. But maybe I just need to trust our crash tests a little more!

 

[Hazelandlucy]

Hmmm...but I think that my seat would be touching (bracing) before the actual impact. So why wouldn't that work the same way as a load leg?

This is fascinating

I think being able to brace is ideal with or without a load leg? That is what I have gathered. I just can't in my car because of the advanced air bags (I think...so confused, lol)

 

[_juune]

This is what worries me - why do we have nothing over here with our big seats and heavy toddlers? Not supposed to brace because of the airbags, no load legs, very few seats that allow euro routing or Australian tether.

I really was about to bring over something like the Max Fix or the new Isize Maxi Cosi 2way Pearl - the installations look so amazingly easy with the light and sound feedback - but they are too heavy to rear face past about 35 lbs with our latch limits.

So the best thing to do is install a convertible upright as possible, have a tight enough harness and move the front seats forward as much as possible if you can't brace/touch?

I just read in another old thread about someone who had a Swedish seat that didn't have a support leg and could be braced or unbraced. It went to 55lbs. If not braced it needed 15 inches of space in front of it! That is what concerns me about these US seats that now go RF so high. I worry that carseat companies are trying to meet the new ERF demand without properly testing for what happens at higher speeds, with a seat in front the RF seat, and a heavy toddler. But maybe I just need to trust our crash tests a little more!

I'm in Europe, so this is easy for me
As for the touching/distance etc. -- the manufacturer of one of the seats that you linked to, the iziKid ISize, says it's either touching or 25cm distance to the front seat/dashboard, and that's with a support leg -- I didn't find it in the manual of the iSize iziKid, but it's there for the isofix iziCombi X3, the iziPlus etc.
The RF to 55lbs Euro seat [without a support leg] that could be used un-braced -- could it be the very old FreeWay? I think the 2 support-leg-less seats that remain both must brace, the Britax TwoWay Elite and the Brio Zento [btw, Britax bought the part of Brio that is strollers and carseats I guess that means no more Zento?].
I do understand that part about whether the certification tests are enough I don't really have much love for the ADAC that here in Europe runs additional crash tests on Euro seats [because of the way they report the results], but every once in a while a seat fails quite catastrophically [like an infant seat separates from it's base and goes flying, isofix connectors fail, FF harness rips out from the shell etc.], so it's not bad to have something besides the certification tests only.

 

[cottonpenny]

I think being able to brace is ideal with or without a load leg? That is what I have gathered. I just can't in my car because of the advanced air bags (I think...so confused, lol)

Yes, I'm very confused on the airbag thing too! The manual for my car says it has advanced airbags but it doesn't prohibit anything touching the seat. So does this mean I CAN brace on the driver side or no? I thought I was erring on the side of caution by making it just a finger width away, but either could be a comfortable driving position for me. I have a 2011 Outback and a RF Ranier for my 34 lb 3 year old.

 

[Hazelandlucy]

So basically my final question is: is it better to leave room for the downward rotation and risk a higher neck load (the Z force according to Cybex?) or to literally leave a piece of paper width (for the airbag) and let the seat back limit the rotation, but now it's impacting the carseat?

http://www.regallager.com/downloads/AtonQBrochure.pdf

That Cybex brochure makes me want a load leg so bad.

 

[Hazelandlucy]

Yes, I'm very confused on the airbag thing too! The manual for my car says it has advanced airbags but it doesn't prohibit anything touching the seat. So does this mean I CAN brace on the driver side or no? I thought I was erring on the side of caution by making it just a finger width away, but either could be a comfortable driving position for me. I have a 2011 Outback and a RF Ranier for my 34 lb 3 year old.

You know I am just as confused so not the one you really want answering, but I have read a lot lately, lol, and everything seems to say it's the passenger side with the sensors.

 

[cottonpenny]

You know I am just as confused so not the one you really want answering, but I have read a lot lately, lol, and everything seems to say it's the passenger side with the sensors.

Sorry, just sort of asking in general, I didn't mean to presume you knew!

I think I'm going to make it brace then. And I think once I move DD out of the Snugride (soon, as she's 28" at 5 months!!) I'm going to put her in a Britax in the center with the ARB and the Aussie tether. I had the Aussie tether set up when DS was this age, so I got used to it. My tethers are on the roof so it gives a little more space than tethers on the seat back, I would imagine.

Back to your original point, it does seem odd that there are a few infant seats with a load leg but nothing for older babies. I sort of wish they would make an optimized seat for each stage. I wonder if that has something to do with it - where does the load leg go when a convertible is moved to FF only. We're so used to multipurpose seats and I wonder what gets lost in trying to make sure a seat does everything. I'd rather buy the best rearfacing seat, the best FF harness, the best booster, etc. Though I understand in Sweden they just go from RF seat to booster around 5 or so.

 

[_juune]

I wonder if that has something to do with it - where does the load leg go when a convertible is moved to FF only.

In Europe we are now getting more and more seats that basically consist of 2 pieces -- a seat unit and a base. The support leg is fixed on to the base. Once the seat goes FF, the seat is snapped onto the base the other way, it still uses the support leg; the support leg is an anti-rotation device like a FF top tether. Often an infant seat can be used with the same base. I.e. the MaxiCosi 2WayFix base + ISize Pebble and 2WayPearl, or the Klippan base + Dinofix or Triofix. Some seats simply rotate on the base, like the Britax DualFix.

 

[Hazelandlucy]

Sorry, just sort of asking in general, I didn't mean to presume you knew!

I think I'm going to make it brace then. And I think once I move DD out of the Snugride (soon, as she's 28" at 5 months!!) I'm going to put her in a Britax in the center with the ARB and the Aussie tether. I had the Aussie tether set up when DS was this age, so I got used to it. My tethers are on the roof so it gives a little more space than tethers on the seat back, I would imagine.

Back to your original point, it does seem odd that there are a few infant seats with a load leg but nothing for older babies. I sort of wish they would make an optimized seat for each stage. I wonder if that has something to do with it - where does the load leg go when a convertible is moved to FF only. We're so used to multipurpose seats and I wonder what gets lost in trying to make sure a seat does everything. I'd rather buy the best rearfacing seat, the best FF harness, the best booster, etc. Though I understand in Sweden they just go from RF seat to booster around 5 or so.

Ha, I know you weren't asking me specifically and I just felt bad answering as such a non expert, lol.

http://www.britax.co.uk/car-seats/car-seats/dualfix

http://www.besafe.com/en/car-seat-products/toddlers-car-seat-0-18-0-25kg/izi-comfort-x3-isofix

Looks like the load leg is used in the forward facing position in their convertibles!

 

[_juune]

Ha, I know you weren't asking me specifically and I just felt bad answering as such a non expert, lol.

http://www.britax.co.uk/car-seats/car-seats/dualfix

http://www.besafe.com/en/car-seat-products/toddlers-car-seat-0-18-0-25kg/izi-comfort-x3-isofix

Looks like the load leg is used in the forward facing position in their convertibles!

The second one [iziComfort] is a forward facing only seat. Besafe's "convertible" is the iziCombi [actually had that seat for DD some time ago], the support leg is used RF, and detached/removed [it has 2 parts, the lower one is removed, the upper one just folds into the seat] when FF

 

[creideamh]

There are some that use the load leg for FF as an alternative to top tethering, which is only just beginning to catch on in Europe.

I use a Swedish seat but don't really recommend importing. It's confusing, takes a ton of time trying to determine how it'll work out in your car, and then more time trying to troubleshoot. But, I love it. But, I plan to move DD out of it in 2 months when she turns 4. Point being: do what works for you. I think load legs are useful and could be better than RFing a preschooler in an American seat without one- that's only my gut feeling, based on 1 limited study, and could absolutely be wrong. Importing makes zero sense in 99.9% of cases, but if you really want to and know the illegality and risks, far be it from me to tell you no. They have lots of cool features in Europe, but they're behind on top tethering, I think the Brits are wrong on their anti-LBB campaign, etc etc. We've learnt a lot in the past decade, but there's still a lot of uncertainty and grey areas.

 

[ketchupqueen]

You know I am just as confused so not the one you really want answering, but I have read a lot lately, lol, and everything seems to say it's the passenger side with the sensors.

This is only true of some brands. Some say pressure on either seat can cause a problem, some only the passenger seat, and some say that only pressure up from below can, not on the back. (And some say pressure up from under OR on the back, on both seats!) So it depends on the vehicle brand and sometimes model. The LATCH Manual has general statements for each brand (that answered) but many of them seem to be kind of over-general.

 

[Hazelandlucy]

I think I have found a great seat if I can verify it only weighs 15lbs! Maxi Cosi 2way Pearl. It's an isize seat so side impact tested and looks very simple.

I just can't figure out if the 2014 odyssey can support a load leg? I have read a few posts about a spare tire under the second row, but not sure that counts as true underfloor storage where you lift up the floorboard. I know that's not recommended.

 

[_juune]

I think I have found a great seat if I can verify it only weighs 15lbs! Maxi Cosi 2way Pearl. It's an isize seat so side impact tested and looks very simple.

I just can't figure out if the 2014 odyssey can support a load leg? I have read a few posts about a spare tire under the second row, but not sure that counts as true underfloor storage where you lift up the floorboard. I know that's not recommended.

Umm, Maxi-Cosi's website says the base weights 6.5kg and the seat unit weights 7.23kg, which is 13.73kg in total; which I think is way more than 15lbs.

 

[Hazelandlucy]

Umm, Maxi-Cosi's website says the base weights 6.5kg and the seat unit weights 7.23kg, which is 13.73kg in total; which I think is way more than 15lbs.

That must be my confusion. I scratched all the isofix seats off my list thinking they were too heavy, but then saw the Pearl as 7.2 kg - obviously just the seat itself. Do you think the base count towards the 65 lb latch limit if it has a load leg though? I feel like there would not be so much stress on the anchors.

 

[_juune]

That must be my confusion. I scratched all the isofix seats off my list thinking they were too heavy, but then saw the Pearl as 7.2 kg - obviously just the seat itself. Do you think the base count towards the 65 lb latch limit if it has a load leg though? I feel like there would not be so much stress on the anchors.

I think it does count towards the limit, yes. I think the 2WayPearl's weight limit for the child is 18.5kg, at least over here, where car manufacturers are not allowed to make up weird rules [With ISize it's seat+child=max 33kg, and that's that]. The lightest ever isofix seat might be the Concord Reverso, but I don't think it has really hit the market yet. Both the 2WayPearl and the Reverso have a height limit of 105cm.